Could TikTok Save Your Marriage? | Awake at the Wheel | Ep 36

you're completely right. And it's a controversial opinion for some reason. But the fact is that most heterosexual women who are pairing up with a man are looking for somebody who's going to provide and protect them Hello and welcome to you Awake at the wheel. So in many episodes we've spoken about the fact that there is some bad advice out there online, whether it's experts talking about a certain topic or, you know, just the average person. There's some good information, but a lot of bad information. So we're going to try something a little bit different in today's episode. So our producer has found three videos on Tik Tok that are gaining some popularity with regard to relationships. So we're going to watch these videos and then give our thoughts from our professional perspective and perhaps give some recommendations as far as maybe what you could do instead of what this video is saying. So without further ado, let's watch the first one. All right. So first off, I love Steve Harvey. He's such a surprisingly low key. But then when he speaks about these things, he's so insightful and so intelligent. So I'll say that. But wow. I think that this ties in a lot to what we've spoken about before in terms of women developing this sense of entitlement when it comes to relationships, their expectations and so on. But Oren, you go first. Okay. So I think he's right to a certain degree and right about part of it, which is, yeah, men will put up with crazy, hurtful, whatever else like that if they think they're going to get something out of it. And yeah, so he is the guy who's just waiting to, let's say, consummate the relationship for sure. That part I agree with. However, I have many patients, either the men or the women who the dynamic goes much farther than that. It's not just, okay, well, and then he's got it. So now he's going to, you know, like, just leave her. No, he stays in that relationship, whether it's because he's masochistic, has low self-esteem, thinks he's trying to save her. And it goes both ways, because we know this, the bad boy phenomenon where women try to save him, because underneath that bad exterior, there's a heart of gold. No, underneath that crap is more crap. Okay. And so there are many people who, you know, who lie to themselves and they don't they don't know their own motives. So I'm going to say this, Steve Harvey, he's wrong in the sense that, you know, that there are many, many, many men who would continue to put up with abuse, mistreatment and so on. Like I said, either because of their own deficiencies in themselves. Right. And they don't think that they they deserve better or and or so excuse me both and or they think that they are saving this person. And sometimes, by the way, not this woman. She seems like not one of these. But there are many people that say if a woman has borderline personality disorder, where underneath that harsh exterior, that unpredictable, the crazy, you see the good person, you see the child, the vulnerable child, and so on. So when you see that, that's very appealing. And and you you know, you have empathy and compassion for that person. But I've told many patients when they're telling these stories about, you know, whether it's male or female, whoever the partner is, I say, And how much are you getting paid to, you know, to help this person? They say nothing, obviously. I go, Well, exactly that you should not be their therapist. And, you know, and we you know, we can take this even though with a short clip, I think we can take this into many different pressures. I'm going to shut up for a second, but or in a second. Sorry, but I do believe that there are certain pathologies on both sides being revealed in clips like this. So I'll toss to you. Yeah. So I agree with much of what you said there. And I think that to an extent, you know, Steve Harvey is certainly on to something, but this is to imply that the only reason somebody would put up with garbage behavior in a relationship is because they want sex. Not necessarily so. And I'm looking at this as the perspective of, well, if this woman was my client, how would I handle this? What kind of questions would I be asking her? And the prevailing thought for me is why do you feel the need to treat somebody so poorly? So what's happening within you to make you think that it's acceptable to conduct yourself in a relationship in that manner? I can think of a number of things that would come up, but I don't want to irresponsibly speculate because I don't know this woman. But I sense that, you know, many times, yes, you're correct that if a man is tolerating this type of behavior, there's likely something happening with him. But what is what is encouraging a woman to think that this is acceptable behavior in a relationship? Right. And, look, we can speculate about her This be very clear here. We don't know her. We're not diagnosing her. But she's reasonably attractive. And, you know, we do know that women and men as well. Okay. From the youngest of ages, if there is a you know, there's pretty privilege or, you know, handsome, privilege, whatever. So they learn from the youngest of ages. Recent research has shown this. I can remember we talked about this before, but they did a study years ago where they would describe a child and the child was a bit of a brat or, you know, not the greatest kid. And there were pictures of the child. And so it's the exact same descriptions. But in half the cases, the picture was of a cute kid and half the cases it was a not so cute kid. And it was with teachers. And they asked teachers, you know, how would you describe this child and, you know, how would you work with them? How do you predict, you know, having a class with them would be and with the cute children, it was like, oh, this child's a leader. They know how to speak their mind. They're engaging in stuff like that. And with the unattractive kid, like they're going to be a troublemaker off to watch over them and so on. So if you're a cute kid from the youngest of ages, you have been taught that you are treated differently. And maybe if you don't actually you may the kidney not recognize this consciously at first, but they are being conditioned, you know, to be able to get away with things. You know, it's something that's that a normal kid says might just be seen as mediocre but from a cute kid. Oh, so charming and cute, right? So right, So again, I'm not speaking about her in particular, but it's very possible that she she's able to get away with a lot. And, you know, whether even even if it's something I hate to say this because some of the people could misconstrue this, but if someone's attractive and by the way, I'm not saying anything new TV shows, movies have ever used this as a plot line. If if they're attractive and they say something that's not even funny, people will laugh. Okay? Because again, they want something with this person, whether it's to have sex with them or whether it's just the clout of being with someone who's not attractive or something. So anyway, the point is, though, on the most superficial, superficial level is that maybe she has been conditioned throughout her life to be able to get away with stuff. And so she never really learned discipline, self-restraint, being nice to others. And if that's the case, then, wow, she's got four. And again, I'm not speculating about things or but in this case, she's got some terrible parents if they never put that structure around her. My favorite example of the pretty privilege is I don't know if you ever watched the show 30 Rock, but. The 30 Rock, Jon Hamm was exactly. That. The doctor. That was terrible at everything that he did. But everyone loved him because he was so handsome. That's what I was thinking of when you were saying that. And I was actually, I’m not joking. I was thinking about that example as well. 100%, yes. Okay. Right. So back to the men who put up with this. And so, I mean, the fact is and this is going to sound sexist, but it's reality. It's in our DNA, It's in our evolution. Most women, not all, most healthy. Sorry, any healthy woman does not want a weak man. All right. And they want a strong man. I'm not being sexist here. This is just look at all the research. It's very clear they want a strong man. I'm not saying a toxic man. I'm not saying a jerk. I'm saying someone who's strong. So if and I've said this to patients, by the way, I've said that. So I've had patients who either are mean and nasty and you're asking like, you know, like we talk about why they're like that. No, I can't help it. Whatever. Okay, I say. So either they're mean or nasty, mean, nasty, or they are uncontrollable. They might get irrationally jealous, they might be possessive, controlling, whatever. Okay. And again, it could be from men or women, but I'm in using case with the women here. And I say, if this is how you conduct yourself, you are going to find on. And these are attractive women as well. Okay. I say you're going to find one of two men. One is an alpha male, okay? And either a true alpha in the sense or the alpha male, the jerk, the toxic and so on. And I say, because they're going to want to tame the shrew, they're going to you know, they see you as a challenge. They want to break you, they want to dominate you. You are a challenge to them and you're more exciting. And the appeal of you is at some point, whether they know it or not, they're going to dominate. Anyone can dominate a weak person, but to dominate a strong, a beautiful person, Ooh, that's intoxicating. Not to all men, but to certain men. So I say you're going to have that type, right? I say, that's a toxic relationship. You guys have been fighting all the time and that and and they always nodding, Yeah, that's been my dating history. Or I say, you're going to have a lap dog. You're going to have a weak man because he's going to put up with this and he feels he has no choice. And I say, you're going to get bored with him. You're going to have no respect for him. And if you have no respect and you're bored and everything like that, either you're going to leave his sorry ass or more likely because you're going to find some weak, pathetic man who can support you. You're going to step outside the relationship. Okay? And sure enough, that almost always happens, if not always happens. And again, why? If someone's there and they're willing to, you know, to put up with your terrible behavior and they're willing to support you and give you a, you know, a safe space, why would you give that up if they're so cowardly and weak and everything that when you're going out there a night, when you come back, maybe smelling like you shouldn't be smelling and he doesn't say anything like that, why would you give that up? You get the best of both worlds, right? So at any event, that's just another layer to it. But I think in large part that goes back to the fact that people aren't learning what a healthy relationship should look like, frankly, because yeah, you're you're completely right. And it's a controversial opinion for some reason. But the fact is that most heterosexual women who are pairing up with a man are looking for somebody who's going to provide and protect them and be strong. And again, not in a toxic way, but in a way that makes them feel safe. So this type of behavior from this woman leads me to believe that she has not had a history of whether, you know, throughout her life in relationships and friendships, whatever you want to call it. But she doesn't have a history of probably safe, secure, strong attachments with other people. Right. And you use the word we talked about this in a previous episode, so I won't get all the detail, but security, the most important to me, the most important factor in a relationship, is that sense of security. So, you know, for her, she might think it's there's a security in it, but she doesn't going to see a second part in a second. But she does know there's something brewing underneath. I'll get to that in a second for the man in that relationship who puts up with this. And of course, the roles can be reversed. Right? Like, it doesn't matter. I just using this because that was what the video was. He's constantly feeling insecure. He's constantly afraid that I'm not good enough for this person. This person could leave me. If someone treats you like crap all the time, why would you feel secure? Like there's a they feel comfortable, but it's not real comfort. It's they feel familiar. People say, okay, because for whatever bad dynamics they've had in childhood or whatever else like that, whether it's verifying their sense of their poor sense of self, that they don't deserve whatever it is, it's the familiarity and it's a comfort, but it's the most uncomfortable comfort you can ever have because you're constantly insecure. No one is going to say was just to add to that, although I think you want to comment, I'm not sure if I say. I was going to comment on Steve Harvey's piece of that, but continue what you're saying, then I'll I'll jump in. Okay. Because I'm pretty sure we talked about another thing in a previous episode, and this is most important and I say this to all my patients, say to my students, I don't think it's hyperbole to say that more than any other therapist on the planet, if not human being. And I'll ask you this if you remember this, Kate, I deal with one one I'm going to call it emotion feeling, sentiment. Sentiment is the better one in relationships more than anybody else on the planet. Any idea which one? So you deal with more with one emotion, feeling or sentiment more than than any. Anybody else does. Yeah, we all deal with it. But I make this a cornerstone of my my relationship therapy. If I'm working with someone individually, if they're in a relationship, whether it's a romantic relationship, family, colleagues, roommates, doesn't matter. It's the most important sentiment. Negative sentiment is going to stay positive. I was going to say accountability. Now, that's definitely a cornerstone as well. But no, for negative. I should have said sorry for negative. Oh, resentment. There we go. Ding ding! Yes, exactly. So for people who didn't watch the episode, I recommend that you do resentment. Is the relationship cancer. It's insidious. I won't go into a forceful detail, but the fact is, just very quickly, I because I think it's so important for people to recognize this, I think it's going to cut across all the videos we talk about. Most likely it should, because it cuts across everything, which is resentment. If you look at it by the most basic definition is I'm upset with you because I feel you've wronged me somehow. And if you've wronged me, my instinct, my DNA for 100,000 years, it's to get back at you. And how do I get back at you? It can be aggressive or it can be passive aggressive. It can be withdrawing. It can be not living up to the standards or that you would want in areas like that. It can be withholding sex, it can be conscious, can be unconscious, it can be fair, unfair, it can be irrational. But that's what resentment is. And if you can't recognize it, it's going to sabotage your relationship. So what I was going to say was with that woman, any guy, this guy that she's talking about, you know, is putting up with and everything like that, he may not even be aware of it because he's in love with her or his you know, the chemicals are going in and they're blinding him to reality and everything. But on some level, and it's the deepest level you can imagine, it's most profound, it's insidious. It spreads like cancer, which is why I call it cancer. He's resenting the hell out of her and he will get back at her one way or the other, in this case probably passive aggressively, but it will drive her crazy. So people have to recognize that resentment. Yeah. So Steve Harvey is suggesting that, you know, somebody would put up with that for the reason that they want something. Okay, I can agree with that. I don't necessarily agree with the fact that that something would be sex, because while this woman is reasonably attractive, I don't know. I feel like there's probably more to it. So I want to explore a little bit about what could be some other reasons that that person would leave. So, you know, what is it that they got that they wanted and then got it and left As far as as this individual, again, we don't know too too much about her, but I wonder if she had some sort of status that perhaps he wanted or some sort of connection. But I'm really other than what we came up with earlier in terms of, you know, low self-esteem, all of these other things that we're talking about, I don't know what would keep somebody in a relationship like that. Well, let's say a few things. Hate to call it this, but it is his phenomenon, the white Knight phenomenon, the guy who needs to rescue people. It can be a people pleaser. Again, the white knight. So, you know, whether he sees something in her that needs rescuing is possible. There are many, many men like that, women as well. White, by the way. Many of them literally when I talk when you know, when I ask them as kids, they were the one that would they would see like a injured bird or something, that they would bring it home. And it was a beautiful it's nurturing. It comes from there's a healthy element to it. But unfortunately, it's manifesting in an unhealthy as. You say, I personally see it more in women than in males. And I think it is that that nurturing tendency or desire that is fueling that right. And again, it is more I do believe it's more common in women, but I see a lot in men as well. So that could be one thing. And the second thing, though, is and this is something to keep in mind, everyone has to keep this in mind. And I think I've said this several podcasts, but when we start dating somebody or trying to get with them, we don't see them for who they really are. A Because they, of course, are putting on the best front, you know, and they're trying to give a good image, but B, it's just natural that we project on to them that which we want to see or need to see. So when you ask what could have like, you know, what would keep them there, why would they leave afterward? Because that illusion falls a bit. And neurologically speaking, the research has shown this Now there's different there's different estimates. It can be anywhere from six months to up to 18 months or two years. What I'm about to say, I think the eight months or two years part is ridiculous. I don't think it's that long. I would say it's 3 to 6 months at most, but we know that when someone falls in love with somebody else, that they're with the neurochemistry, the brain go undergoes changes where if you if you do fMRIs of the brain, I think it may mentioned this a previous episode that it looks like you're literally crazy. It looks like you have OCD, depression, sometimes even schizophrenia. Serotonin levels actually drop, which leads to an obsessiveness. Dopamine is is increasing, which we've talked I think in other podcast. Dopamine is not a pleasure. It's a reward. So it's like I'm really going after some try to get this person right. So the dopamine is really up there, human growth. And I don't know why, but the human growth factor, I think it's called it for some reason changes as well. We have we have these chemical changes that start to subside after a while and then you can see the person more realistically. So at the beginning, not only are we projecting all this fantasy onto them, but our brain is tripping us up. And by the way, I always tell people this is why if you are in a relationship that is really toxic, really terrible stuff like that, and a couple of years later, six months, whatever else, the person's like, Oh, they changed. No, they didn't change. Okay? You just are seeing them more clearly. I mean, they may change somewhat because again, we always put up the front, the facade, but for the most part, no, they do. And that's why all of your friends and family who are not having their brains, you know, altered because of love, they saw this person for who that person really was, but you weren't able to see it. So you don't you didn't accept what they were saying. So that's just this is such a common phenomenon that I'm describing. Absolutely. Yeah. Their their judgment is clouded. And yeah, again, in this this case in particular, that definitely could be a reason that someone sticks around until hopefully it's it's more like the 3 to 6 months than the 18 months to two years that they wake up and see. This isn't right. Right. The veil is lifted. Yeah. All right. So we move on to the next one. It sounds good. Okay. All right. So I don't think she's completely off base. There's there's certainly some validity to what she's saying. I don't think that three weeks is a magic number by any means. I think that it would vary from person to person. Things that I think are valid are taking some time for self care. She didn't really say this, but I think she was alluding to, you know, reflect on your values, reflect on what you want. But I also sense that some of her recommendations were suggesting some degree of avoidance. And while it would be important to perhaps not communicate with that individual, I don't think that blanket statements like that could necessarily be made. I think it depends on why did you guys break up, what wasn't working. Is there something that can be discussed, whether amongst yourselves or in therapy or whatever the case may be? But I don't necessarily think that no contact for three weeks is is sound advice. So, you know, it's tricky now. Yeah, it's always it's case by case, of course. And I think in many cases that is pretty good advice. I actually use for weeks. I tell people for weeks and I'll explain why in a second. And it's not a golden number. I just tell people, it's just it's a month. It's a there's definitely no science behind it. Right. But so there's a few things. And I always tell my patients, I say, no, I will only say it, by the way, if the circumstances they described do seem to make sense. Other times it's like not to work on the situation. Don't try to avoid, as you say. So I'm going to add another layer to it. So several layers. One is when someone's in a toxic relationship, there have been I've had so many patients, right. And anyone who's been in talks relationship will, will, will recognize this unless they're still in it and haven't ever extricated themselves from one. When you're in it, you don't recognize just how toxic it is and how heavy it is. If people could choose one word that when they were away from the person, maybe they were away for work for a week, maybe the other person had to go on a vacation, maybe someone was in the hospital or something. But if they had a clean break from that person for at least a week, 7 to 10 days at least think I'm just making up these numbers. But this is what I've seen. They use this. They describe it a lightness, right? Because toxicity is heavy. You know, like you're carry around all the time. You're always tense, whatever. And so having that separation allows them to see what life can be like without a toxic relationship. I don't see toxic partner because you both may be toxic, but without a toxic relationship. And so that's why I think one week, ten days, two weeks, I don't think that's long enough for someone to truly appreciate what life can be like in that way. So that's why I like a month. I do think it gives enough time and again, we're not talking all break ups, we're talking and I'm talking about like with toxic situations or either talk. Well, I'm using toxic but broadly so doesn't have to be abusive per se. It can just be something that you're doing the same thing always. Oh, all the time. It's not healthy. You're not happy. You're both fighting. There's lots of resentment, Right? So that one month I say and I'm going to add another layer to a second, I say, But the fact is, if you don't give it that much time, if you see each other briefly within that brief period, you might be able to have a civil conversation. Right? And especially if you're in person, if you're in person, the chemistry, unfortunately. Sorry, that's just nature's way of tricking you. Like. Right. If you know, it's either it's the sexual chemistry or just the the affinity, the closeness, you know, feeling connect to someone that you spent, you know, many months or years, you know, depending on how long, you know, either texting every day or seeing each other and everything like that. So then there's that familiarity again. It it feels good, right? So you can go fall back into that if you spent a month apart and then you see that person, it's still that the risk is there. You can still have that feeling and everything. And then and then if let's say 5% of your relationship was good and 95 was horrible, unfortunately that's the way the brain works. You remember that 5% and that clouds the 95% of bad, you know. So then you're having a false impression of the relationship. You think that it can work. You think you can make it happen again, Right. But within a month, if I found that it's less so, it's still sort of there. But they're able to sort of step back a bit and kind of recognize what Well, I see what's going on here. Yeah. And what I'll add to that is, you know, whether it's three weeks, four weeks or whatever is appropriate in each situation, I would also suggest going in with a specific list of things that you're going to reevaluate after those four weeks. So, you know, what do you you know, what was contributing to these feelings in the first place that cause you to break up? Did they change over those four weeks? Did they get stronger? Did they lighten up a bit? You had different perspective. So I think going in with something specific to work on would be very helpful and meaningful in terms of finding as close to the right answer in the end as you can. And to that point, the most important question to ask is what's going to be different this time? Yeah, that's the question you have to ask How are you going to do it differently? And if a person if neither of you can provide an answer, well, you're just you know, it's a fool's errand that you're trying to do. You're trying to make something happen. And even though this is incorrect, but people love the expression and it didn't come from Albert Einstein. No, it did not. But people say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over. Expect the result, Right? By the way, the definition of insanity is not knowing that you're criminally responsible for something that's very different. It's a legal term. It's not a psychological term. But I digress. So any event so that whole month thing that I wanted to I was going to take it on a different level just for people to come to understand. So I've said this with many patients and it's amazing. Oh, by the way, is before I say that some people, when they do have that, they say a few days later, a week or whatever, a month and they see the person, it goes terribly heightened. Like even if it's just a text or a phone goes text or is a text or a phone call or whatever, and they go, Oh my God, It was just I was just trying to do this want that's trying to pick up my jacket. And it became this whole fight. So sometimes even a little bit of space, it gives them enough insight to go, whoa, whoa, how can we not even make this like five second text work? Like, okay, this is a good sign. Unfortunately, people aren't rational. So even though they rationally understand that in the moment later when emotions come in, it trumps them. They feel lonely. They start, you know, catastrophizing. I'm never going to find anyone again like this and so on. Right? So anyway, a little side note there. Okay. Actually, before I get to the second point, I'm just gonna take one more tangent. I am briefly another podcast. All right. I had a number of patients, no joke. It was. And to being it was three or four. Can’t remember, It was a number of months ago. It was earlier in the year, but they were all women. And again, I think I said this before, but it was incredible. This always happens with it's always usually three this I'm saying three, but sometimes it may have been four, but all within one week, all these women in their mid-to-late twenties, I think one early 30, and they had a loving partner. This guy was, you know, and everything that in some of the case I end up speaking with a partner as well. So I think that's actually a good guy. Right. But these women, because they're in their late twenties, early thirties, they're all looking for someone to date. They're looking for a life partner. And because they want security, because that's what you want in a life partner. Right. And just understanding security, it's it's a healthy, normal thing. We're not talking about excessive comfort or whatever. No, it's security. I can rely on this person. This person's got my back. Okay. Anyway, so for all these partners, these men and I can remember we talked about before, but guess what they all had in common and they were sweet, loving, really nice guys. All the friends loved them, but they all had the same flaw. Can you narrow it down a bit? It's something that if you're looking for a life partner, this this flaw, it's. It's a it should be a deal breaker, and not everyone's going to agree with it, but most people would. It affects most areas of your life. If you don't have this trait, this tendency, if. You don't have this tendency I don't know. They had no ambition. Mm. Okay. And I'm not talking about having needy ambitions so that you can become a billionaire. I'm just talking about, you know, having a job. That would be enough to pay for it to be able to move out of the home or even having the desire to move out of their home and to leave the comfort of home and stuff like that. Right. So I tell them at this stage, yeah, if this guy's 20, 22 years old, it's not that ambitious. He was looking for a guy who's going to be fine, whatever, No problem. But all four of these men, right, did not have ambition. Three or four men had no ambition or low ambition, and they weren't giving the women again a sense of security, like, okay, if we're going to try to get a house, if we're going to have kids that I can count on, you take the also. Oh, he'd be a great father because, you know, they'd be a great playmate. But being a father is more than that. Anyway, a little side note there, but the point is this. Here's one getting two with them. They they also I think I forget how many people I said this, too. I know of one for sure. I think I said it to two, maybe even three. They all said, I'm never going to find someone who loves me as much as this guy. That's my fear. And I said to them, I said, You're probably right. They're like, They're like you. My psychologist just told me that this person that I'm thinking of breaking up with, that I will never find someone who loves me as much. So I, like I said, and by the way, I just want people to understand I see those twice my students in therapy. You know, we are trying to create a create a safe space. We're trying to help people process and so on. But there's also something to be said for emotional resonance. And so if you say something to someone that throws them off their defense has come down really quickly. They don't go up. They go down because they don't know what to do or what they just hear discombobulated. And in that moment, now, there's a chance to see something that might really hit the resonance that. Forces them to to shift their mindset and kind of get off that that train or that track that they were stuck on. Exactly. Exactly. That's what I do it for. Just that, you know. So I saw that for a second. And then I said, but the question is, is that love or is that neediness? Is that excessive dependency? Right. If the person's afraid to lose you because they all the guy said that I don't want to lose you. I don't want to lose you. Well, of course you don't want to lose this person because they are the one thing in your life that you got going for you. You got nothing else going for you. That's not a healthy relationship. That's an imbalance relationship. And of course, I say if you're the one who's always contributing, bring all this stuff to the relationship. I say that's going to foster resentment. That may be the drinking water of the day commitment. And I guess what I'll add to that, too, and I've said this previously when we spoke about relationships is, okay, let's let's even entertain the possibility that you never will find someone that's going to love you that much again. Okay? That doesn't mean that you A) will never find someone that loves you and B) that assumes that love is the only important factor of a relationship. Meanwhile, there are probably a hundred other things that are important in a long, healthy, sustainable relationship. Right. Okay. So and I'm wondering if I want to take it further, but I'm going to leave it then go back to the other point I was going to make. Okay. About the four weeks. Yes. So I've had many patients. I've told them this. Usually it's women, sometimes men. But I've said if your relationship is not going well, if it's having a negative impact on, you know, on your life, basically. And I say to people, I said, I'm not asking a lie, because every time I told someone this, they say, yeah, that's exactly how I feel. So I'm putting words to it. I say, if you tell your partner, look, I'm not asking to break up that little sign on here. Whenever someone asks for a break out, what? I'm going to just make up a number 96% of the time. It's really the precursor to a breakup. Okay, But not always. So just for the record, I just made the number up. I'm sure there's number out there. Okay. But is usually the precursor, but doesn't have to be. So I say if you need a break, it could simply be just because, you know, you're really stressed out with work or family or whatever else like that, and you just don't have the bandwidth to be a proper partner to that person. You can't contribute enough to the relationship in a way that makes you feel that you know, that this work is working for you. Because for some people that's the focus. I want to be a good partner. Not so much what can my partner do for you, but you know, or for for me. But what can I do for my partner? So whatever the case, I don't care what it is or if the partner is overly needy or whatever, or they encroach too much on your space, whatever the case is, if it is having such a negative impact that you are stressed out, depressed, anxious, distressed, whatever it is, I tell them, I say, you use the strongest words that you can come up with. Okay? And there's a reason you do this again. I think to lie, I think to highlight it. If you say I am literally and I use the word literally, literally, I'm literally on the verge of having a nervous breakdown right now, whether it's because of the relationship or because of all this other stuff in my life. And the relationship is the thing that could set me off. If you say I just need one month to know, contact, please. Nothing. I get it. I know it's whatever. Okay. You make sure it's not at a time in the person. Make sure is not such a bad timing. Although if your mental health really is perilous at this point, then. That's got to be your parents. Yeah, that is the right time. So whatever the point is, I say if you tell them, I just need one month, please. Okay. And you say it again and you have to emphasize how important this is. I say that's a litmus test. If they can't give you a month unless there's some special extenuating circumstances, then you know that that person can never prioritize your needs over their own. Okay. And what kind of a partner? I don't expect them to always prioritize your needs because it has to be give and take reciprocity. But in a case like that, if they can't do it, I say that's that's it. There's no better test than that. And by the way, in many case, I don't know. I'm trying to think if there's ever been a case where the person did give them a month. Okay. And yeah, so there's no sorry in these situations. And one of my patients, when I said that to them, they said, Yeah, even when I brought that up, the person wouldn't let me go. Okay? Like, you know, they were begging, please, no, no, please don't leave me at all. It's like, okay, how how's your head? Oh. You could say how selfless. You know, I like I say, how sad. That's sad. It's sad. I guess it is a little bit selfish, too, but it also, to me, screams that they're dependent on one another to an unhealthy degree. Well, yes. And that's I mean, people all over use the term codependence, but there's lot of codependence. I say that to the patient. I go, your partner is excessively dependent and needy on you. And if you give in to it, then you are, you know, fostering co-dependence. Right. So anyway, so that's a litmus test for people. And I'm going to tell you right now, whether it's a breakup or whether it's a break, I can write a book on the number of ridiculous excuses people use to try to get some contact with a person or we we, we I found a paper clip. I'm exaggerating, but I found a paper clip that I think you left. So I bring it back to your house. Okay. Like they'll use any excuse. And some people, they most people, they know what's going on but they feel bad and whatever. And they let that person their boundaries. And I say if you let them break your boundaries, they didn't break your boundaries. You let them do it right. You establish it if you set it up and whatever, you have to stand strong. It's not just on them, it's on you as well. And I think that leads to the need to exercise self-control. And while I can recognize again, the brain is is clouded, depending on how early in the relationship you are, it's really important to exercise that self-control with the understanding that this is for the greater good. Whether that is, you get back together upon reflection or you recognize this isn't right for you. Right. And I guess I'm going to throw it out there just and I came over we talked about another podcast that should be the drinking phrase. I can't remember. It's another podcast. Do I talk about my three plus one model of of relationships in retirement? Yeah. So can you throw out there one more time? Of course, because. Okay, so I came up with this a while back and it resonates with everybody. I've told if you're wondering whether my relationship is healthy, whether there's an imbalance, whether I don't feel a sense of reciprocity, insecurity and so on, I say if this three plus one and I could say it's three plus one, the plus one is just because it's not quite the same as a three. But a lot of people do mention this as something important. So you're never going have a perfect balance in any one factor between two people, whether it's, you know, level level of care, whether it's quality time, whatever it is, it's never going be perfect. So it's like a band. If there's a huge discrepancy, there's a big enough discrepancy that's going to fuel resentment. And it's a sign of an unhealthy relationship investment, which is basically everything you do for the person or for the relationship sacrifice, which is the flip side of investment, but it's what you're willing to or what you have given up in order to, you know, to to fulfill the other person or needs or the relationship and so on. And then commitment the fourth is plus one is respect. Okay. So if you're in a situation like this and you're wondering, should I take a break? Should we break up and so on, something feels off. I feel what was fueling the sense of either unease or resentment or something or insecurity. Three plus one investment, sacrifice, commitment plus respect. And it's not any one of them. It's a combination of them, and it's a big discrepancy. That's why you're feeling that way. Yeah, it's it's profound. Fundamental. It is. I think that fits perfectly with this. As far as what do you do in those four weeks as well, is you reflect on do those elements, those three plus one elements exist? Exactly. And and if if you know, also if you're feeling that they say, I've sacrificed far more than my partner or whatever, okay? Or I've invested so much Well, with that distance, not hearing your partner say it. If you really respect honesty, honestly, maybe all that investment that you've given, which might be a lot, maybe that person has sacrificed a lot, right? So maybe there is a bigger balance than you thought, but who knows? But when you're in the midst of health or of horror or whatever or chaos, you can't see it so clearly. So that space, as you say, it gives you the time to reflect on it and to see whether it can be improved by the way that you have to articulate it, because that's the thing, you're talking a thousand different things. It's too much. But if you break it down to the three plus ones, all right, the famous one, it's easier for the two of you to kind of see like you may not agree on it, but you're talking the same language and all the stuff you're talking about is usually investment or sacrifice. Okay. And by the way, think about commitment. Just one last thing, because a lot of times people saying, look, why are you so upset that the person did this? Like why you said that they're going out with their friends or why you said that your partner is speaking to an ex or something like that. Okay. Well, the commitment, if you don't feel that that commitment is there, then when your partner is doing something like that, you have the fear that they could leave you because they're not fully committed to you. Right. So I always tell people like that, that's maybe why I did it seem like why did why did I react so badly to that? Well, because that commitment factor was being triggered and commitment or the related thing, security. You don't feel secure. So then it's like, what can that partner do to make you feel more secure or what is wrong with you overall? Hey, what's what's going on with you that even in a in a good situation you don't feel secure or that in a not so great situation that you don't feel that you're able to, you know, to foment and encourage that security? Okay. I want to be clear. I'm not saying that that person has to. It's their job to make you feel secure. It's your job to make yourself feel secure. But if your partner's doing things that any objective person could say, wait a second, anybody in your situation would be feeling insecure in that moment, then it's something they're doing. If you stop to speak to your friends or to a professional or something like that and they can objectively good luck with friends being objective. But if they can objectively say, no, no, no, no, I'm telling you right now, that's something that that's a you thing or No, no, anybody would feel that way. That gives you a better sense of what's going on here, because people are not very accurate in their appraisal of what's going on, especially when they're in the midst of something. So I'm not saying that the answer you come up with is the right answer, because you might have a bias, well you will have a bias and you might have extremely skewed perspective. So that's why it's good to talk to people who know about these things, who are going to be honest with you. Okay. And again, taking that during that month space or whatever, you know, that's a good time to talk to people say, look, be honest with me. I haven't broken up yet. I'm taking a bit of a break. Now's the time. If you've seen something that I couldn't see or you were telling me things you may have told me ten times, but because my brain chemistry was there, you know, was acting up, I didn't hear it. Please tell me again in that in that headspace, in that, you know, you'll see this, you know, you might hear the same thing, but from a different perspective. And it might land better. Absolutely. Okay. So should we move on to the next? Okay. Okay. Can we normalize wanting to break up with your partner in a long term relationship? Right. Because obviously, Bae we've been together for over six years. Look at those little babies, which means we've been through a lot of ups and downs and we actually had a point about two years. And we're we're going through this really rocky period that I did not know if we are going to make it through. One of my good friends is a marriage and family therapist, and she introduced me to this concept of the five relationship stages that every couple goes through. And let me tell you, it changed my perspective on relationships. So first we've got the honeymoon phase. This usually lasts about the first six months in the show is euphoric. Like literally your brain releases a chemical compound with dopamine and oxytocin and endorphins and makes you feel euphoria. It's addicting. This, unfortunately, can also make it easy to overlook red flags in a partner. Between about six months to that two year mark, we move on to the differences phase, which is where some of that euphoria starts to wear off, conflict starts to emerge. You start to see your partner as a real person and people have flaws. And it's tempting at this point to withdraw or fight about things. The third stage, the struggle is really where I think broken. I ran into issues. This happens that are about the two year relationship. Mark This is where deeper seated issues and incompatibilities arise, and it's centered around this idea of like the partnership starting to pull apart, partners, becoming resentful of each other for taking away their individuality and wanting to invest more time outside of the partnership rather than into it. And this is a common breakup for couples, but you can get through it with communication, with intentional conflict resolution and with like really intentionally showing affection. And then comes the repair stage. This usually evolves between that 2 to 5 year mark. And is the decision point that couples have to come to after going through all that struggle? You know, they probably feel drained and resentful about the relationship and need to commit to each other if they want to continue onwards. They both have to put in the effort to grow individually and grow together. And my favorite stage is Enduring Love. This commonly kicks in at about five years. I mean, it's really kind of marks the breakthrough of the repair stage at this point. You've really chosen each other, you've grown together, you've learned how to communicate, and you get this really strong sense of support from your partner to support you in your individuality. You almost, in a way, reenter the honeymoon phase. You start to play together again, and it really feels like falling in love again. All right. So that was actually not too bad. I think that she touched on a lot of the things that we've been talking about. So that's that's interesting that we're ending with that one. But I guess what I'll say if I'm looking for a criticism is I think that all too often there's, you know, these stages of bereavement, there's stages of this and the stages of that. People need to understand that they're just guidelines. If your relationship doesn't follow this exact five step process, that's okay, because there are others uniqueness to every relationship. There are differences in every relationship. But I do feel for the most part, she did touch on a lot of important things with the goal being that enduring love stage. Right? And exactly A is also the timelines you focus on. She was saying that the six months this is exactly what I was saying then that to the two years right because I've seen so many people who are they rigidly adhere to these things as if it's a science. But you know, this is guidelines. So I liked a lot of that except for the timelines part. She and also they used to be the thing called the seven year itch. Where are they? Right. And there was there was two centers, two different ways. One was by the seven year mark. That's when we find that couples start going through like the real big problems and they're most likely to break up. Or the flipside of that was if you made it to seven years, then you made it through the roughest time and you're okay, like, you know, like it's going to most likely continue. I've also heard some say every seven years that's going to happen. Right? There's also the cycle yet seven years and also, though, about 15 to 20. Oh, my gosh, over 15 to 20 years ago. All right. I was reading some research that was saying that the seven year itch has now become two or three years, like just because the way that society's moving and everything. that, that, you know, this whole process was escalating. Quick factors, do you think escalate, though? Because I can I can certainly see that. But I imagine that online dating social media, all of the things that we always talk about, probably play a role. But did they identify what the specific factors were? the online dating and everything, and it. Was about online dating like kind of story, but not certainly not in the same way we see it now. No. So I think it's even sooner, like we're seeing, like the relations are even more precarious now. So. Yeah. So I think. What else about that video? Yeah. It really captures so much of what we talked about. The only other thing I would say is and I think it's really important , first of all the the other criticism of her of the thing you know after five years and blah blah. Yeah. In theory. Okay. But the fact is that you see that I like the cycle thing better because it's not like it's going to be you're going to be cruising. It's you got to constantly be working on this. You got to look for these things that, you know, whether it's stagnation, whether major events, whether feelings of betrayal or loss or whatever within the relationship. Like you got to I just I know the tic tac video, but I thought she could have been a bit more, let's say, nuanced. And you talked about that. One of my favorite if I could just add something to that. One of my favorite couples therapists is Esther Perel. And she says she says it within the context of infidelity. But I think this is an overarching thing people can look to, she says. If you're lucky, you will be married 2 to 3 times in your life, but to the same person. So to your point of this cycle that, you know, people are always growing and changing, and if you can grow and change together and, you know, the relationship endures, that that's a wonderful thing. Right? And the fact is. Yeah, exactly. People change all the time. You know, the people who and very few people change together because they have a different life path or whatever. But recognizing the changes in each person and how it can can it fit into the relationship that you've built and trying your best to make sure that it does and being able to accommodate the relationship, being able to accommodate yourself, We're not talking to a pathological level. We're not saying that someone suddenly changes everything, that you have to go along with it. Right. As always, we're always talking about healthy degrees, not extremes. Right. So, yeah, I like that notion. So what I was going to say, though, and this is something I have noticed in so many people and I used a different nature. I called it the investment theory or bad investment theory of relationships. So back to the idea of the brain chemistry being messed up. I've had so many I've lost literally lost track of either the patients or the students, especially through reflection papers have told me about this and friends where they again, because the brain chemistry is messed up at the beginning, you don't see the flaws in your partner that everyone else sees and you're in this love stage or the honeymoon stages that they're call it, right. And something bad happens. Within that first six months, I'm going to say 3 to 6 months, even the first date or something. And because you're in this honeymoon stage, you don't fully recognize what happened, okay? Or you don't recognize that this is a really big red flag. And someone says, I think when you wear rose tinted glasses, red flags, just what do they call like red flags flying, just like regular flags or something like that. Okay. So in any event, so because you're in love, you forgive them for something that you wouldn't forgive anybody else, or if you weren't, quote unquote, in love, you wouldn't forgive them. Right. You would recognize that either this was too egregious or, oh, my goodness, this is a sign of something about this person. Right. Everyone else sees you don't either they see it or you tell them in the story and they see it differently than you do. Once again, I've got to tell you everyone, because your brain chemistry is messed up. So here's the here's the problem, because you didn't break up over that first early thing. You should have broken up over months down the road. And it was a big thing. If something else happens, whether it's a it's a list of little things that little, little, little, little or big things. But not as big as that big thing to say to yourself. If you break up over the smaller things, whether it's a year down the road or five years down the road, if you break up over the smaller thing, whether it's just small or it's a big thing, but not as big as the other one, you would have to admit to yourself, I made a horrible mistake back in the beginning. I should have broken up. My friends told me to break up. There was a part of me that wanted to break up. Maybe I did break up, but I got back together because the chemistry and everything. Right. But that's a bitter pill for most people to swallow and most people cannot. That's the irrationality of the human condition. And I don't know if as this podcast or a previous podcast, I think it was when we talked about cognitive dissonance reduction. Yeah. Okay. So most people just very quickly, they don't want to believe that they are dumb or bad. So it would be really, quote unquote dumb to, you know, to not have broken up when you should have broken up. So every time we get these smaller things happen, they go again. If I didn't break up for the shoot like they see and they don't admit the cognitive dissonance part because with cognitive dissonance reduction, if you do something that is bad or dumb instead of saying I did something bad or dumb, I'm a smart, good person. I just really bad or dumb. They're very, Oh my God, it means I'm bad or dumb. So they distort reality so that they can continue living their delusional life, quote unquote. Delusional. Yeah. It's so tricky, though, because I think that it depends on the situation. Like, what comes to mind for me is what about when there are kids involved right. So people very well may let things slide or at least allow more in a relationship when children are involved. And we know that the data shows that, you know, except in exceptional circumstances, kids do best in a two parent household. So that is something important, important to consider. So I think it's a fine line between, you know, being delusional and permissive, but also looking at the bigger picture of, okay, well, this terrible thing happened. I now realize I'm married to a terrible person, but we also have four children, right? So that that really does add some difficulty into decision. Oh, for sure. I was going to get to the afterword that is the caveat. You're absolutely right. Okay. That one, by the way, I've lost count. I'm sure you have too, of people who say if it wasn't for the kids, I would have broken up. Oprah Yeah. Right. Yeah. Fair play. Fair play, Right. But that's all I'm going to say, though, was that the longer the time goes right, it's harder. And harder to bring yourself to the point of, you know, of making the right decision and forgive the kids. I was going to say the kids. You've already said it. That makes the decision much harder. But even if there's no children and so it's going to say, what's most people they can't acknowledge, They don't know that it's cognitive dissonance reduction, that they are distorting reality in order to make themselves sleep better at night, not to think that they did something stupid or bad. What they do tell themselves consciously is if I didn't break up over this right, why would I break up over that? All right. So it just it doesn't make sense. It can't compute that. Right. And and most people don't take the reflection of, well, maybe you really should have done that, Right? Right. Rather than what is cumulative. They're looking at these things individually. Right. And they don't recognize why they did or didn't do it. And I told people I said, no, you did. Well, why didn't you break up with them? Well, because I love them. Well, maybe it was too soon to say you loved them. Okay. The reality they tell this to brain chemistry when I give my explain to them why it most likely is I don't say every single time I'm talking about big things. By the way, I'm not saying small stuff. I'm saying, you know, because I see them struggling with that and I see them when they talk about it. You can all you can see the gears turning. Even if I don't see anything where they're recognizing, wait a second, I've been framing that in a certain way for so long. Okay, maybe that was a distortion. So it's again, it's trying to give permission to be able to have those distortions. Sorry, too, to be able to recognize. Yeah, I was distorting reality. We all do. And now is a chance to try to untwist it and, you know, to make the best decision and most adaptive decision for myself and or the family. Yeah, but, but all in all, I think this is certainly one of the better ones. And maybe I'm a little bit biased because she was citing some things that her therapist friend said, but it was for the most part, with the exceptions of the things that we pointed out. I think for the most part, as far as TikTok videos go, one of the more reliable ones. But I think, you know, kind of looking at the three that we watched today and what can people do about this, I think the take home message is that it is generally difficult, I think, for the general population to discern what is and is not good information out there, because these three, while different, did have some pros and cons in each of them. Three very different types of individuals providing the recommendations. But what's interesting is that we took these, you know, 1 to 5 minute videos, not even five for the longest one, but these couple of minute videos and spoke about them quite a bit. So the idea, I think, to take away here is like anything in life, a healthy dose of critical thinking is really important, recognizing that, you know, these these really complex topics can't be tackled. And in a one minute clip or a one minute video and looking at these more so as guidelines or perhaps points of reflection rather than advice in and of themselves. Exactly. And it's as long as you take all those factors into consideration, it might be valuable sometimes to use these videos with your partner and say, Hey, by the way, I saw this, and then you try to relate it to, you know, what you're going through. And there was a study done many years ago, I won't get into it, but that shows the merit of doing that. And I've said this many times, I do this in therapy all the time as well, and I think I said it on the podcast. We can see our own lives much more easily through the lives of others, because when we're watching another story, when we're seeing a Tik Tok about someone else's experience, our defenses aren't up, okay? Because it's not it's not about us, right? You're talking about separation from it. Right? And when the defense are down that it can resonate with us. And I see this many times. I mean, whether it's a Facebook meme or something else, sometimes hearing things phrase a certain way or in a certain context or on a certain day or the person who's delivering it, sometimes it just hits, it resonates. And and by the way, if you're the partner where let's say one of your partners comes to, you said, Oh, I saw this Tik Tok video, blah, blah, blah, and the person was saying something you've already said before, Don't get fresh. You say, Hey, you know, by the way, I have said that, you know, and and but you end up in a product in a constructive and productive way, not in a petty way, saying Well, I said that's why you listen to them, not me. Because coming from you, it means something different. You have a history. Maybe when you said it, it sounds like you were defending yourself. This happens in couples therapy all the time. Where I'll say something right and the person's like, Oh, my God, yes, that's it. And I'm a genius, Saying that all these years. And I always tell them, Oh, yes, because I have no baggage with you. So you can hear coming from me for what I said, not as some distortion and it's not defensive and so on. So you know, anyway, so like I said, I do think that you can use these videos as, you know, helpful in the relationship if you guys understand all the caveats that we've both mentioned. And again, it's just guidelines. And also though, the thing is there's a lot the whole point of this, there's a lot of bad advice out there, a lot of bad takes. Right. And some of these influencers are just so toxic. We talked about this in a previous podcast. They are toxic. Some of these people are talking and if you can't recognize how toxic the person is just from the demeanor, just from the words these written, the examples they're providing, then you got to question your own judgment. That's the problem with all this stuff online. There's so much information, but a lot of it is so bad and people have a hard time recognizing the bad from the good. I’m just throwing that out there. And I guess to that point, though, then something that people can do in looking at these videos is if you recognize that there are extreme viewpoints taken on on either side of the topic, that should be a red flag as well. But maybe this isn't the best advice to be listening to, Right. And even the best advice givers And the best advice. I'm not going to mention her name because I really do like her. All right. She gave some amazing examples. I've been telling a lot of my patients to want to watch her videos because there's certain like there's always a specific thing that I like that I can tell them to look for in the video. But the fact is she was talking about infidelity and she gave some great answers. But the way she spoke, it was like, that's it. It's like, wow, you missed this, this and that. So people have to understand them. As you say, it's a it's a guide, but it's not complete. And by the way, going through one last thing, just when we talk about guides and everything, I know recently on one of the forums that you and I are both on, they've been talking about the, let's say, the fraud of attachment theory. All right, now we're talking human adult attachment, not the babies, but adults. And it was actually done by two I think it was two women in a UBC. I think it was maybe another student 30 years ago or something where they took the attachment styles that we used for children and then said, Oh, these attachment styles can basically last your entire life. And, you know, many books have been written about them, but that's not really attachment, okay? You know, attachment is it's a very specific phenomenon with, you know, mother and child or the father can be father to a parent. Child. Or. Right. Parent child. But it came from a person with mother and child, biological. It's neurological. It's very, very first stages. After that. It's a bonding, it's dynamics. But people say, oh, because this is my attachment style as a child, this explains everything. So I've had some patients who've told me either articles or books that they've read, and it really helped them understand it. And they'll say, Well, my attachment style is this my partner’s is that and a, this is why we're having trouble and B, this is how we can fix it, okay? And I say, look, I've always told them it's not the be all, end all. And what you're describing, it might seem like it fits, but it may be totally irrelevant. There may be a whole bunch of other stuff, but it's a starting point and it might actually be complete. So anything that's a starting point to communication, to healthy discussion, to acknowledging the reality, as opposed to living some fantasy, hoping things are going to change or pretending that things are what they aren't. Okay, any of that is good. So I highly recommend that as long as you have your critical thinking glasses on and you never give too much credence to any person point of view theory or anything like that, they're just parts of the puzzle, a piece of the puzzle. So I would love for our listeners to send us examples of videos that they would like for us to to talk about and comment on within, you know, the subjects that we we commonly speak about. So if in the comments people can drop links to videos, we would love to comment on those in future episodes. Okay. And on that note, until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel.