Fearlessness and Conviction | Awake at the Wheel | Chanel Pfahl PT 1 | Ep 39

And I really couldn't care less if people are criticizing the idea I put forward. And that is so liberating and it's a sense of peace that you can't achieve if if you're just going to stay quiet to appease whoever or get your paycheck. Hello and welcome to Awake at the Wheel, so Oren and I have discussed in many episodes throughout this podcast what's going on in the education system. As parents, as therapists, we have identified a lot of things that really give us pause. Anything from what's happening with gender ideology, with critical race theory, with all kinds of things that seem to often be distractions with regard to our children's education and education at large. So today on Awake at the Wheel, we have a guest. Her name is Chanel Pfahl, she is a former teacher and she has been speaking out about many of these same issues that we've been discussing on the podcast. So we're happy to have her here today. Thank you. Welcome, Chanel. Thanks. So I'm wondering if you can start out by telling us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about the work that you've been doing and perhaps what motivated you to speak out. Yeah, for sure. So I started speaking out a couple of years ago. I had only been teaching for about three or four years at the time, and I started to notice that things were just not right. And there was a lot of race essentialism going on. And what I was seeing from the crowd that thought that they were being inclusive and kind and all of this stuff was more like it looked more like bullying to me and I really didn't like it. So I started to get informed as much as I could. And slowly I started to speak up. I started to share articles and I started to experience the backlash that came with that. And I made a decision at that time that I would go along with something that I didn't do, that I didn't feel was right or true. I put a comment in a Facebook group that said that we shouldn't indoctrinate kids with critical race theory. To be clear, this was a group for Ontario teachers only. It was a private group. So I was, I guess, wrongly under the impression that we could have some discussion on issues relating to education and someone in that group reported me and then I was investigated by my board. I was suspended for two weeks and I was ready for a full week without pay and then everything was alright. A year later, the Ontario College of Teachers started to investigate me. So that's the regulatory board that gives teachers their license. That lasted a long time. Finally, they decided to drop it and then they started more investigations. So the reason they're after me now is just since I've left teaching, I'm no longer teaching. Since August of 2021, I've been exposing a lot of what's happening in schools. I know how it works. I know the way that teachers bring in this ideology, and I just post a lot of examples from it. Usually it's because the teachers are proud of what they're doing, so they put it online. Then I find it and I just share it and I, I try my best to not even really comment on it. I, I mainly just put it out there for people to form their own opinions about what's happening. And yeah, I think that answers mostly yeah, my background. So I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth here, but correct me if I'm wrong, Oren and I were excited to have you on because it seems like your original approach is much like ours, that as professionals we have a responsibility to the communities that we serve to call things out. If we see that something doesn't seem right or doesn't serve the population that we're working with. But how unfortunate that in upholding that responsibility, that's kind of how it turned out. Mm hmm. Everybody, you know, these days who takes their job seriously, who feels that they owe something to the public, especially if you're paid by taxpayer money, if you're doing what's right and you're questioning the approach that your institution is taking, you just get pummeled right? Okay. So and so you're not teaching anymore. Like, is that like, is it temporary or is permanent? You left a field. What are you you know, what are you doing now since you had you know, you're basically send sandbagged? Yeah, well, I actually didn't get fired. Some people kind of are under the impression that it's just because of the way it looks. But I quit because of physical illness that started in January 2020. So my whole last year of teaching was very difficult for me. And I was on sick leave a lot because I really couldn't function. And now it's the same thing. I'm really struggling in my day to day life just because of this autoimmune condition I have. So ideally I would like to teach again, it's not going to happen. Probably not, because when I think of realistically, unless I would unless I would, you know, get a position in a private school that hasn't been completely overtaken by ideologues. The chances of me getting hired in a public institution right now, like teaching, is slim to none, I think because they're going to Google my name and the first thing that comes up is going to be it's going to be very clear where I stand. And I mean, this is four years I've left teaching or sorry, I left teaching about two years ago. So things have ramped up a lot even since I've left. And now I've seen the job postings like if you are not ready to sell your soul and tell them exactly what they want to hear in terms of equity and pushing this ideology, you will not get hired, right? So, yeah, there's so many questions. And I think for someone who's A) been in the system and B) exposed the system and see suffer the repercussions of doing that, I think it is so many questions. So they're going to be random, I guess, for Malini and myself. Okay. So yeah, start with a light one, maybe a less intense one, which is I mean, I came to know about you, of course, through Twitter or X have was John Kay that was retweeting you. I'm not sure. Jonathan K But who would you say is your biggest retweet or who, who gave you the biggest one, Oh, probably Jordan Peterson Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Although now he seems to have disappeared from Twitter. But yeah, for a while he was he was really helping me out, getting the word out because. Yeah, yeah, he's interested in this and it's fantastic that he's willing to do that. I've also seen your name around, like for the last two years or so, and we've never actually talked through surveys, but I was like, I like this guy. Then I looked you up and I realized that you were one of the first psychologists. I think, to defend Jordan Peterson back in like 20, 2016. Was it? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, yeah, I was. I was at that time I was. I was just blissfully so ignorant and I didn't start to question any of what was happening until 2020. So props to you. Yeah. Well, you know, when you see it and it's funny because or sad because you've seen this as well. Now once you see it, it's impossible to unsee. And it looks so obvious. You wonder how can nobody else see what's actually happening? But when when Jordan Peterson first came on the scene, what he was talking about, first of all, he didn't actually this many times. I don't think he communicated his intent as well as he could have his mastered the messaging. Now, by the time it came across poorly, it was easy for people to totally distort his messaging. He made it easy for them. Right. But so I can understand why people didn't quite get it at first. But he's been relentless since then and so many other people have. And you wonder, how can someone not see this? I mean, I know psychologically how. All right. But I'm going to ask you then, as a normal human being who's, you know, who's been immersed in this, okay, when you like in your personal life, forget online. In your personal life, do you have people going either whispering or publicly saying, yes, what she's doing is right, you know, thank goodness for her, or are people going, what's wrong with you? You've changed. What's the experience being for you personally, not online? Um, a little bit of everything. There's most of the people that I worked with just ignored me. And I don't know what to make of that. Like, a lot of them still have me on Facebook. They know exactly what I'm doing. They've never said anything either way. And I'm like, Maybe they agree and they or maybe they're just keeping tabs on me because they hate me. So who knows? But yeah, it's been a bit of everything. There are teachers, I get a lot of emails and DMS on Twitter from teachers who are who are happy that I'm giving them a voice because they don't feel like they have a voice at all and they're basically on the brink of leaving education, but they have no Plan B, then they have a family and all of these things getting in the way and I mean, I really feel for them because I think to be in that position where you cannot speak the truth is so soul crushing. I had to go. I did that for only a couple of months and it killed me. So I can't imagine doing that for years. When you have something to say and you're just you have to be quiet, or at least you choose to because you're weighing your options and and you've been silent for all these years. And so it's easy for you to think that keeping quiet is the best way. I actually don't think that's the truth at all. I think that by speaking up, you gain courage and you gain so much, and I would recommend it to anyone. And it doesn't matter really what your situation is. And I know I'm going to get, you know, the people who are like, oh, like, that's heartless. People have to feed their kids. Okay, I get it. But usually there is a way to make it work if you actually think about it, if you think of a plan B, you don't go out and screw it up from one day to the next. You think about it. You say, Okay, where is my line? Okay, my line is I want to treat every student the same regardless of their race, period. I don't have to go in every topic. I'm just going to say that one thing and when I do so, I might get in trouble. So what am I going to do if I get in trouble? And you kind of have to prepare mentally so that when it does happen, you're not freaking out and trying to apologize to the mob so that you can feel any sense of security or whatever. So, Chanel, I want to touch on something you said earlier. You mentioned it sounds like a four year period of teaching where you're blissfully, blissfully ignorant. So for you, what was the light switch? Where did you go from not really recognizing or seeing what was going on to being fully aware of what's happening? And there was a few there was a few things. It was the summer of 2020, so there was the George Floyd thing. And I will admit that when that happened, I had the Black square as my profile picture. I thought that this was like a great thing. I wanted to help combat racism or whatever, and shortly after that I had a professor who well, he was my professor a few years ago at in Sudbury, and he posted a tweet and he's a biologist. So his approach was more from an evolutionary lens. He said something like, Why would we be racist? Like we're all evolved from single celled organisms or something like that. Very benign tweets. And then he hashtag all lives matter. And that was his big downfall because people just as you know, you you're not allowed to say all lives matter at that time. I don't know if we're allowed to say it now. I say it, but, you know, I might get canceled for that, too. But at the time, he got just attacked and this was a professor that I highly respected. So and I had worked with him closely. He he supervised my thesis and everything. So I defended him right away. And I lost, I think, three Facebook friends that day when I defended him. And I was like, oh, my gosh, what is going on? You know, like there's something really, really off here. And it was a really stressful time because I didn't have a lot of people well, I didn't have a single person actually, who was on my side, really. So from there I'll say probably one of the major factors in me waking up was I decided to get off social media completely for that whole summer. So I think I did about, you know, three or four months of no nothing. And and in that time I read books, I listen to podcasts, and I was able to kind of explore ideas without having to defend myself or confirm my own biases by looking at content online. And I think that really helped open my eyes. Yeah. Um, and also just who I was listening to. So the people I, I started off with Jeffrey Miller. The reason I actually started listening to podcasts is because I was trying to plan for my biology course. That I was teaching in the in the in September and I was really excited. It was the first time I was teaching this course of university biology class for 12th grade sorry, 11th grade. And I was fascinated with evolution. So I was just listening to Jeffrey Miller. Jeffrey Miller, Jeffrey Miller. One day he was on Joe Rogan. So I listened to Joe Rogan and I thought, Oh, who is this guy? So I then I listened to other guests. Joe Rogan had on and I discovered James Lindsay and Jordan Peterson and all of these people. And I remember it was like a crazy week for me because I was sitting there on the couch listening to like a crazy amount of podcasts, probably like 10 hours, 8 hours a day. I just couldn't get enough of it. And I felt like my whole world was falling apart. And I called my dad, who was always conservative. He always challenged me very subtly on my preconceptions and stuff like that. And I called him. I was like, Oh my God, when you said this, like, did you mean, you know? And is this is this true? And what do you think about this and what do you think about this? And he was just it was just starting to shift everything into place and to this new perspective on the world and oh, yeah, so I guess there's a little bit of everything. But I will say that Joe Rogan, I think in general is an awesome voice in this. If somebody wants to wake up and the reason is he is so chill, he's not trying to change your mind. So you don't have your guard up. You're not like, Oh my gosh, like I'm going to have to shift my whole world. You know, You're like, you're hanging out, smoking a cigar as he's laughing and whatever and kind of just relaxes you enough to consider other views. And what I find so interesting and I know you have a question, I just want to jump in with one one thought here because I noticed a similarity between you and I, and it's almost embarrassing when I recount this story and I'm going to be careful because I don't want to identify where this happened. But Oren knows this story well, that before I knew about all of this critical race theory stuff, I, in a meeting, posed a question much like where you supported this professor because you probably read this post and was like, Yeah, that makes complete sense. What he's saying, not realizing all of the background and all of the politics that are surrounding it. So myself, I had challenged some commentary about critical race theory where I was told that race, race is a social construct. And I said, Well, I don't really understand and tried to have a discussion. And I was completely ex-communicated from this group of people and was completely blindsided because I didn't understand what it was that I did. Now I look back, I'm like, Oh, duh, okay, now I see it. But I just noticed that similarity between us. Or you were just saying what made sense to you? I guess that's a winning recipe. Then just go in blind and see. See whatever you think. And. And then you'll. You'll wake up like you and I. Right? I guess. All right, Well, that's why it's awake at the wheel because. Right. There's too many people in in those positions are asleep at the wheel or worse, they're taking it and they're just driving us off the cliff. Right? So. So, yeah, I was going to say it's funny because you talked about like from Geoffrey Miller to Jordan Peterson or sorry to Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, and a normal person would say, oh, okay. So she had her worldview expanded. There was a whole universe out there that she wasn't aware of. And all it took is one little, you know, light and followed that and it broadened and broadened. Whereas the other people would say, you see, And that's how it happens. And that's how she got indoctrinated into the far right. Right. So, yeah, So I got to ask you, actually, it was funny because I was at the inaugural party, I think it was 2019, January 2019 in Toronto, and numerous speakers all said the same thing. I'm mean to ask you if this is your experience. Sounds like it. They said I was always left or center left. I haven't changed. My my perspective has broadened a bit, but I am still like, you know, again, I still have the same values and everything that I have as a good person who wants to do right by others. But I've realized that the left has actually abandoned me because the left has gone extreme far left. I'm still where I am. And there's a meme about that, right where the left got all the way over there. You're going the far right. You know, anything I say right Mao is far right. So I want to ask you, I mean, so it sounds like you're saying that you were always quite well. Can you talk sort of your political leanings beforehand and where you call yourself now and you know how labels are hurting everything? Yeah, like I'd hesitate to even classify my political leanings at the time because I didn't even know what the other side was saying. So like, yes, by default I was voting left because it just felt like that was the only way to do things. I mean, I just came out of university there is no one ever telling me even what a conservative even stood for. Like I did not know. All I knew was they were hateful and I remember as a child at one point, my dad put a conservative sign up and I was like, ashamed. And I thought that this was terrible and that we should not be putting the sign up because, you know, we would get targeted or something like it was a scary thing. That's how bad it is. So I would say, like you, my values have stayed fairly the same. However, the policies that I was supporting at the time didn't fit. I shouldn't have been supporting them because they actually don't reflect my values, even though I thought they did at the time. So like you, I mean that call and right meme is perfect. So the dates are a little off for me, but that's exactly it. You know, you have some really common sense is we should treat everyone the same regardless of their race. We should treat people as individuals. We should hear their their views and not shut them out, not cancel people. And apparently this is just really taboo now. Okay. And, you know, again, there's so many things that you said. So I'm going to ask, you know, we can dive into to so many, this will be the 8 to 10 hour podcast. You know, you're on the other side, but I know you have time. So very quickly then I am infamous for when I write a post and I get so many people criticizing me, but that just fuels me more, which is I will put as many adjectives as I can to question who are these people? And I'll say ABCD because I want to cover it all. I don't want to make an assumption that you must be bigoted or this or that. So I'm saying, which one is it? So I'm going to ask you, I'm not going to give you the list of words, but I'm going to bring in a couple because you brought up one word, I think said courage. Okay. I'm going to put courage. You didn't use this word, but this describe what you were saying about integrity. Okay. Courage, integrity. I'm going to put ability to resist cognitive dissonance reduction. I will talk about that in a bit. Okay. But if I took a whole list of these words, okay, the the the what you have and what you don't have, what do you think it takes for somebody to be able to shift their perspective so dramatically because everyone's seeing the same stuff? Sorry, some people are not because they're only look at certain news sources, but once they've been exposed to it, instead of saying, oh, I didn't realize that, or oh, I thought that this was going to help, but I didn't realize it's hurting so much. Right? People double down on cognitive dissonance. Reduction prevents them from being able to see that and say, I made a terrible mistake. They didn't the double down and the attack. They attack anyone who was trying to shine some light on what they don't want to see. So what is it about you or anyone else who is able to hook themselves from this perspective and see a different perspective? What does it take to. That's a really good question. I, I wish I knew the special ingredient that I could then give to all my neighbors and stuff, but I really think that it has something to do with this heightened state of being that people are. And I think that there's a lot of fear. And when somebody is just paralyzed by fear in some way, whether it's about the climate, which I was kind of part of that group, by the way, I was a vegetarian for many years, and I thought that this was to save the world and whatever. Right. So I have a bit of that weird thing going on. But I think the fear stops people from considering the other side. So. Well, let let me just segue into how this how this can inform our approach with people who are woke. I think that they need somebody who is okay with them being wrong. And they need they need patience like a lot of patience and just people who will plant seeds without being aggressive about it. And that's just informed by my whole trajectory and how Joe Rogan's approach, basically. But let me get back to what you said. Yours is asking. What is what quality would make someone more willing to open their mind. Willing and able, that’s two different things Willing and able, Yeah. Well, one thing I'll say that I had that might be a problem that probably contributed is my dad was always a contrarian. He was always a devil’s advocate in every situation, even annoyingly so. So I always had that voice in my head that was like, Oh, what? Like what if I had this wrong? What if what if this what if though? So that helps. But that's not a quality, that's an experience. So like, I really, I, I don't know what it is. I guess the. Something you pointed out Chanel, if I can jump in for a second because you're talking about your previous experience of being a vegetarian and being worried about climate change for you. What I'm hearing is that you've always had a desire to to do the right thing and find truth. Mm mm. It doesn't matter left or right. It's more about what's, what is correct. So yeah, I, I think I do have a very strong moral compass and it's been misguided many times. So I'm always kind of also aware now that it could be misguided now to like which is really important too. I don't want to get ever to a place where I'm so convinced that I'm right that I don't challenge my beliefs anymore. And I think on the other side, there is a lot of this going on on our side, too. I see it all the time. But this openness to being wrong or this this, you know, a loyalty that's more to the truth than to your tribe. I admire people like that who can say something that they know might be unpopular, but they they are willing to lose the friendships or lose their followers or whatever if needed, because the truth is more important. Okay. And so I'm going to say so you said it was experience, not a quality, but that experience or genetics or whatever else really is. What helped you to be able to have that quality and that quality? You said it earlier. Okay, I'm going to say if I had to choose one to encapsulate everything, it's the ability to tolerate the fear, the fear, the discomfort, because not necessarily fear. The world is going to end the fear of what if I'm wrong? The fear of being judged, the fear of losing friends or followers or whatever else. Okay. And especially the fear of being wrong and what it means. Okay. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. It means, oh, I was wrong. I educated myself and now I have a different perspective. But most people can't see that. That's where the cognitive dissonance comes in. And I've said so in other podcasts. First of all, I don't know what drink. Every podcast is a word that I kind of latch on to, and that becomes the drinking game word today. I don't know if it's going to be I'm not sure I have these fear. That's the one, I think, Oh, if you. Fear. Fear or fearlessness anything with fear, but if cognitive dissonance, reduction and people talk about it all the time, they throw these terms. I think it's so important because that's what you want somebody would would be dealing with in a situation like yours. So very quick, I'll say it one more time. Most people in the West want to see themselves as smart and good. And so if they think or do something that, you know, if you go, maybe that wasn't so smart or that wasn't so good, instead of saying, whoops, I made a mistake or I did something stupid or not so great, they think that means that they are stupid or they are bad. So the fear of seeing themselves in that way and the inability to see themselves differently, to say, no, no, it doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It just means I did something foolish or uninformed or whatever. Okay. And if I can change, I'm actually remedying the problem. I'm actually going to maybe make amends for what I did. And as you're doing right now for anything that you may have done trying to change the world in this way and you realize what's okay, now you're changing course and you have the fearlessness and you said courage, whatever word we want to use, but the fearlessness to be able to say I need to change course. And so, yes, whether it was your father's, you know, contrarian nature, that that would have taught you critical thinking, you would have been able to say, yeah, it's not about. And you said exactly. It's not about loyalty or fealty to a tribe or to a belief. It's more about what is truth and what is going to do the best for us. Okay, So I'm going to jump on that word fear. I think that's or the ability to contain it and the discomfort that goes along with it. And it's not just the being okay with being wrong, but it's also now it's come to being okay with losing your entire friend group, losing touch with your family and all of these other things, maybe losing your job, losing your career as a whole because you have to find something completely different to do. So it's this crazy amount of luck. I mean, isn't there some kind of scale for stressful events where, you know, losing a wife or husband is like a certain amount of points or whatever? Somebody who gets canceled, I think checks off, what, like ten, ten different items at least. And I mean, it can't be understated when you think about Richard Bilkszto, for example, the suicide of a. Oh, yes. Principal. That just is the the example people need to remember to know just how psychologically abusive it is or psychologically harmful it is to be in that situation. I think what this ideology does a lot is try to mash together your identity with your ideas. Like you said, it's not all you did something stupid, it's you are stupid. I think over the years, what I've learned to do more and more is distance myself so much from the ideas that I really don't care if somebody criticizes them. If I used to when I used to put something controversial on Facebook, for example, I would be in this heightened state of, you know, when I log in next, am I going to have like 20 notifications or I'll be mobbed and, you know, and now only I'll put something on Facebook and I won't check it again for two days. And I really couldn't care less if people are criticizing the idea I put forward. And that is so liberating and it's a sense of peace that you can't achieve if if you're just going to stay quiet to appease whoever or get your paycheck. It's something that's priceless. And as much as it's hard in some ways, like my financial future is now in question and there's all of these these issues, I it's worth it in every way because you're having a clear conscience is the most important thing to me. Really. Well, it's your value. I mean, you're living in line with your values. Me, Malini, you talk about all the time and I think it's so important, whereas other people, their value is, you know, let's say friendship or and I think that you don't that's not one of your values, but it's a prioritization. And you recognize that you can't sleep at night if you're not living in line with your values, with honesty, with truth, with, you know, with reality. So that's that's really important. So, yeah, again, look, I told Malini before, we have to have you on because you're a nobody like us, okay? Now you become somebody, but you start off as a nobody. You has everything to lose. There was literally nothing. There was no personal gain for you. Like none, right? You're not a grifter or anything else like that. And you stood on principle. You lived in line with your values. And I think I hope that more people see you and recognize that. Yes. I mean, at some point, because Jordan Peterson was talking about, you know, like at first he said, you know, sacrifice, speak up for truth, whatever. Afterwards, he softened that and said, no, if you're starting off in your career, don't jeopardize adults, have a child. You got to think of yourself first. You change that and people say, oh, it's easy for someone like him. He can't be canceled. Russell Brand, Joe Rogan, they try to cancel and they have all these resources. But for somebody who doesn't have all of that, you know, you're the embodiment, the living embodiment of integrity, of fearless ness. Oh, we'll take you seriously. And I'm not fluffing. I don't believe in fluffing. I don't believe in flattery. I'm speaking what I've seen. And you had everything to lose again, professionally, personally, and you've persevered. And so many people would have just closed their accounts, hidden away, something like that. But you keep speaking out. You keep shining a light. I keep retweeting. You know, so many of your posts just because people need to see it. So I'm so grateful that you're doing what you're doing and B, that you came on today. So thank you. Likewise. Yeah. Thank you so much. And I could say the same about you. I just the fact that you stood up back in 2016, it's it's amazing to see and this is the quality that it is we might not realize, but I think that it wakes up a lot of people, you know, like it's I speak to so many individuals who say, look, you gave me the courage to say this or you gave me the ability to, you know, whatever, and I don't even know them. And I'm like, Why? Like, you know what? Why me? But they see, I, I think just the act of being courageous, being, having integrity is just naturally really inspiring to us. And so we have to harness that as much as possible and realize that even though right now you might have zero followers, you might not even be on Twitter, you might not even be on social media at all, but even in your school setting or your work setting, you can have a tremendous impact on people around you. And one more thing I'll add to that is because this was one of my fears early on when I saw the issue and I still wasn't saying anything. And every day and every meeting was a complete disaster for me because I was I was just at the back of the room basically shaking like, why am I here? What is going on? Why is nobody disagreeing with this? I like I just could not tolerate it. And at the time it was like, well, if I see something, then I'm going to get I'm going to get pushback and then I'm going to have to defend my whole entire worldview and I'm going to have to argue every one of my points. And I don't know enough yet. So I always felt like, well, I'm not equipped enough, like intellectually to fight this. I don't know everything. Therefore I can't take a stand. And I think the lesson that I've now learned and what I tell people is that you don't actually have to defend anything whatsoever. You don't even have to get into the arguments at all. You can just sit there and say, this doesn't really feel right to me. And then and then what's nothing? And then if they come after you, you say, Well, I don't know. Just didn't really like the way that, that, that made me feel or I just, I think we should treat people equally or, or just something very basic and don't even feel the need to defend yourself. Just say that because just doing that will expose them 100%. Because you have everybody there who heard exactly what you said. There is nothing harmful about it. Very calm, very clear. And they freaked out and panicked and they look terrible. So that would be my advice to a new teacher So it's such a bizarre experience. And Oren and I both work with teachers and educators in our therapy practices. And here, unfortunately, a lot of the same sentiments for people don't feel like it's right and are afraid to say something because they don't know what to say or how to say it. And I'll even add in here, people of color who work in the school system, this is supposed to, you know, quote unquote benefit them and the groups that they belong to. And they they all think that it's hogwash, too. So I think and Oren and I use this term all the time, good intentions executed poorly. I do like to believe this came from or is born out of of good intentions, but it's being executed so poorly and going to such a degree where it doesn't even make sense, nor is it actually serving the people that they're trying to serve. MM Yeah, exactly. That's really well said. Okay, so a couple of questions for you then, Chanel, while this was happening. OC did you get a sense you were saying that nobody was speaking up, but did you hear any whispering? Did you see anybody else kind of in the corner going, The fuck is going on here like this? Or did everybody did you see them all, you know, chanting and you know, Yes, yes, yes. What was your experience with that? Everybody just going along like they're not necessary. We cheering it on, but they don't look frustrated in any way. They're probably not even paying attention. Right. They're like answering emails while they're talking and then they don't care and they're going to go back to their room, their class, and do whatever they had to do. But it got to the point where, like at my school, they would tell us, oh, oh, we need to show the board that we're doing X, Y, and Z. So make sure that when you teach about this or when you teach about, you know, like a Black History Month or anti-bullying week or whatever, make sure to put it in the calendar and explain what you did and it was just everybody just goes along with it, right? It's checkbox. It's not actually about doing the right thing. It's how do we look to the board? Yeah, exactly. It's like some teachers probably didn't do a lesson at all. And then they were just they discussed anti-bullying with students. Maybe they did discuss it for 2 minutes or whatever. Maybe maybe they did take action, take the action that the board needed it. The thing is, teachers who are completely woke are able to sort of escape and sort of keep their class in a like the realm of common sense. But the teachers who were radicals and there were some are able to just do as much as they want. They could do three. They could they could spend the whole week talking about gender and racism. And it would be completely fine because it's human rights. And if you speak against it, then you're anti-human rights. So and it only takes a few teachers. I mean, if if one teacher is teaching this to all of their students every year, every semester at the end of the four years of high school, chances are they've seen every kid, Right. And there's always more than one. So. Right. And it's not even in high school anymore. In junior high school. Elementary school. Right. Earlier and earlier and earlier.