Should we ban cell phones?

The people who are the most idealistic and most naive and most ignorant, they're the ones who think that if you put a whole bunch of children on an island without the, you know, the toxicity of adults and white supremacy and colonialism and blah blah, logic and progress, if you put all these kids on an island, you're going to get utopia. And I hate to burst your bubble. You put them all on the island you're going to get Lord of the Flies. Say, Lord of The Flies. Yeah. Exactly. If you don't know that reference, then. Then you're part of the problem. Google Lord of the Flies. Hello and welcome to Awake at the Wheel. So recently there's been a lot in the news about cell phone bans in classrooms. So in Ontario where we live, there's been restrictions since 2019 on cell phone usage in classrooms. But across Canada and in many states in the U.S., they're instituting full on bans. So to me, it seemed like it was a no brainer as far as well. Yeah, cell phones are disruptive. And you know why? Why didn't this happen sooner? But I'm surprised to see that there's actually quite a bit of debate in favor of the ban as well as against the ban. One would presume that it's mostly the students that are against it. But there's also some parents who have qualms about their child not being able to have their cell phone in class. So the obvious things that come to mind here, and even with the Ontario regulations that are in place, cell phones can still be used if it's for educational purposes or for medical purposes. I would even say for myself, I use my cell phone as an assistive device. So of course that would still be allowed in the classroom. But there's a lot of problems with kids being on their phones, not paying attention in class. Again, the things that I would think are obvious problems with cell phones in the classroom. But as far as you know, whether it should be a full on ban or not, I guess that's where the debate is. And it's funny because I think back to when I was in high school and when I was in grade 12, I would say is when cell phones like became a thing. There's me and two other friends who had our flip phones and the rule was it stays in your locker. So I'm also perplexed as to why, why, and when that change and how that evolved, because the argument is often, well, what if there's an emergency? Well, then go to your locker and get your phone and use it. Why that change? I'm not sure. But Oren, what are your thoughts on all this? Well, as you say, I mean, it should be a no brainer for a variety of reasons, many of which we've talked about another podcast. And so this whole idea so I can think of a few reasons why parents inexplicably would want the cell phone to be with their kids. So one would be AC for emergencies, but there's always ways around that. If the child's having an emergency, the school be able to contact the parents or whatever, or they'll have access to it. It's, you know, if the parents have to reach a child, well, then you call the school, right. To expect that I can call my kid right then and there. It's like it's doesn't make sense. Kids have breaks. Those periods are 45 minutes or an hour or whatever between the periods they can check if you know, if something about a kid having to pick up their sibling or whatever else like that. Right. These things can you know, there's times for them to be able to do that. And the frequency of such necessity is probably relatively rare. So and it doesn't justify all the downsides, as you say, the disruption. So I've got right now one daughter is in high school. The other two have already graduated. But they went through that as well. And we've seen the progression or regression when it comes to cell phones. And sure enough, with each year the cell phones are being used more adaptively by kids to cheat. It's like it's much easier to cheat on these tests, especially when COVID and people were doing like, I mean, every everyone I knew, whether it's my, you know, my kids friends, not my kids with kids friends or my own students would admit to me about how easy it is to cheat and so on. So, I mean, that's just human nature. Most people, given that opportunity, everyone but most people, they're going to take advantage of it. So if you're giving kids this device, this powerful device that we've never had in the history of humanity, and they can do all these amazing things, whether it's to cheat, whether it's to communicate with somebody, whether it's to spread gossip or, you know, or whether it's to distract yourself to think that kids won't do all of that if given the opportunity is ridiculous. You're defying the human condition. So, you know, so it's rationalization. If you think of any reason for why the kids should have it. Now, the the newest reason and I get it and I'm not sure what to do about this, is that especially since COVID, so many kids have, you know, use their phones to expose things happening in school that shouldn't be happening. Look like indoctrination. For example, teachers engage in terrible transgressions and so on. So I get that. So it's a bit tricky. How does one, you know, how do we account for that? I'm not quite sure. Does it mean having cameras in all the schools, in all the classrooms and something like that so that if necessary, you can go and check it out? Possibly. You know, is it expensive? Yes. But if that's what's required, if that's what it takes to prevent kids from being distracted by these devices, I mean, adults check. I don't care what laws are in place. Check any city at any given time. You're going to see a bunch of adults still on their phones while driving. While driving. And if adults can't contain themselves and they've got their brains fully formed while driving or in a business meeting or something else, okay, why would we expect kids to be able to. Yeah. And that the cheating part, I almost feel naive, but I didn't. I didn't even occur to me like that's such an obvious one that. Yeah, it is. It's such a huge tool for cheating. And again why that's not being policed more effectively is very strange to me. I think back to, gosh, we're talking 20 years ago now when I was considering a legal career and I was doing my LSAT and I remember for the LSAT examination when we got there, we had to drop off in a bin, our phones, no water bottles with a label, even on it, anything that could possibly have any method of cheating. I think I to take my watch off too. And it was like a Timex piece of crap was like, What am I going to do with it? But like, it was zero tolerance, no possibility of cheating whatsoever. So to me in my head, that's the way it is. But yeah, for kids to just have access to their phones and probably very easily be able to cheat with that, that just blows my mind that that hasn't been more stringently and effectively addressed these days. It's it's wild. Yeah and you know kids the I mean as as generations go on kids are getting access to more information so kids are learning from a younger age a how to be devious and B, they are being told am tell you right now this may blow your mind, but over the last 20, 20 or 30 years and I've tracked the change, having taught for that long and having been in grad school as well for a long period of time, the general sentiment, okay, I know we're sort of shifting away from the cellphones in class, but it's part of it. It's related, which is this idea that it's normal to cheat. Okay. And we talked before in other podcasts about accountability. Okay. It's almost like a game, All right? It's like investors or it's like it's like corrupt business people. If I you know, if I do all these bad practices and I can make $10 billion and I'm fined $100,000, it's worth it. The you know, the cost benefit analysis makes sense. So for these kids, if I do something and the advantages, I get an A or an A plus, I don't have to study that hard, etc.. And the worst thing it's going to happen to me is, a warning. If kids don't get suspended for this anymore, kids don't get a zero on the test. Most schools and I can't speak for all districts, but I know there are many schools that have these policies. You're not allowed to give a zero. Even if the kid cheats, they're supposed to have a chance to make up the test. Can't be a harder test has to be like on par all these things. So the the risk is so minimal and the payoff can be so great. And again, we're giving kids the means. And in the old days, as you said, of all these things about how to prevent, cheat cheating. Right. Well, the most common thing and again, I've taught over 200 class courses over the years, and I know when kids would have to go to students who go to the bathroom. All right. I would have it to your seeing monitor. Can't go in the stall with them. But and I know students even tell me know they had the paper all whatever they quietly opened up or if you got a phone and it's not taken off of you and you go to the bathroom, you've got everything right there. Okay. Or at your desk and Oren, I don't know. Maybe it's this this illness I'm fighting off. So I'm just more sensitive right now. But of all the, what, almost 50 episodes we've done and 50 topics, we've talked about that what you said there probably made me the saddest the fact that people aren't holding themselves to a baseline of ethical behavior. Right? That the fact that the enticement of cheating and getting the benefit out of cheating is far more, again, enticing than doing the right thing and being ethical. Like, I just want to throw my hands up and say, well, there's nothing left to talk about because that's that's very sad. Very, very sad. But you're right. And that's the the issue here is that if we're not policing things with proper consequences and this goes across many of the topics we've talked before, that if there aren't proper consequences, what is going to deter people from behaving badly? Yeah, I mean, that's just the reality and that's a human condition. And Scott Adams, I think I've cited him before, or the creator of Dilbert, this is his phrase. He says, Design is destiny. I might have mentioned that before. Okay. So we are designing a system that's guaranteeing that kids are going to cheat. It's guaranteed because, A, it's so easy. B, the consequences are minimal. C, it's being normalized and the payoff is worth it. You under that system, it's impossible for the kids not to either cheat or have a lower moral code or not put as much effort or something to be charged if it is going to change all that as well. I mean, the technology and it's all technology. Technology is great, but technology also has the potential to be terrible. And again, that's where policing comes in. And I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here, but it's related and it's related to other videos we've done, which is when we have such changes in society in this case through technology, we do need use the word policing, we do need some type of system or structure in place to make sure that it doesn't have the unintended negative consequences that we're talking about. And unfortunately, as we talk about another podcast, so many people in that position of authority or control or decision making have been asleep at the wheel. Hence our podcast Awake at the Wheel. And it's no more so that in schools we see it. Now, I'm not I'm not maligning all teachers and we've talked about this in other podcasts where the good teachers, they're the ones who come to us because they're so distressed, they're seeing their profession, they're decaying, they're seeing people at the top either closing their eyes, burying their heads in the sand, or encouraging it for some crazy reason. And, you know, and again, I don't want to get into another rant, so I'll be careful. But the fact is that so many people in these positions of power, a, they've been brought up through the, let's say, the teachers college system, the education system with beliefs that are nonsensical and they are not conducive to a healthy power in this properly functioning society where there is accountability, where I don't care what the color of your skin is, I don't care what your sex is. I don't care what adversities you've had. I don't care what your sexual orientation or gender identity is. I don't care any of that. If you've committed a transgression, you need to be held accountable. Conversely, you need to feel that it's your responsibility as a human being for yourself to do things the right way, not to take shortcuts, but to to struggle, to endeavor to do better and to become a better human being for yourself, for society. Great. But at least for yourself. And there are so many people, unfortunately, who are distorting that message, prevent you from being from, you know, from from coming out and instead are giving the wrong message, which is basically, you know, if you've done something wrong, well, let's look at all the reasons that society wronged you as opposed to what did you do wrong. And again, these messages are spreading so widely and kids are seeing this all the time through social media. So I'm just trying to tie it together with the phone. And the phones are the ones that, you know, that carry or transmit that social media messaging. And as I always do, I'm trying to like find some positive hope here as far as society and people wanting to do good and be good and one of these videos that I watched about the cell phone ban, there was actually a kid who said that he's happy about it because he doesn't feel that he has the ability to control his usage. And in class and to stay on task and to stay focused. So on the one hand, I think that that's a great thing that this kid's able to recognize his perhaps gaps in self-control. But on the other hand, that's really scary that kids feel so addicted to their phones that they can see loud and clear, like they they don't have control over it. They don't have power over their usage. And you know what? What is that going to do to these kids long term from a learning perspective? Right. And I think we've talked about this in other podcasts, but one of the best I mean, this has been for like 50 or 60 years was the marshmallow test cake. And I think I'm talking about it before, but it's worth saying it again, because this ties to all of this that if there's different variations, but just imagine also make it with people can understand if you have a kid where you go, okay you know if if you act right now, you can have these five Smarties or if you wait 10 minutes, you can have 50 Smarties. The kid who's able, from the age of four or five or even younger, the kid who's able to go, I'm not going to take this, you know, the short term gain, I'm going to wait a little bit longer and get a bigger gain right. Those kids, the ones who have impulse control, the ability to delay gratification, we know the research is clear and it's been replicated so many times that predict success later in life. The ability to delay gratification and cell phones are the antithesis of that. It's immediate gratification right then and there, whether it's to contact somebody, whether it's to get information or whether it's to distract yourself or when you distract yourself. And there's something else that's so important people have to understand. I think I've said another podcast, which is, yeah, pretty sure I did that. When you're distracting yourself, when you're externalizing your attention, you are doing something that differentiates humans from most other creatures on the planet, which is the ability to introspect, to look inward, to reflect on your thoughts, your feelings, your experiences, the world around you, and just, you know, to to learn from that, to benefit from it to to play things out in your mind. We're not doing that. And that's one of the most integral components of humanity that, you know, that we have this ability to do that. We don't know how we can do it, but we can do this to mental eyes and so on, and the cell phones, it's not preventing us from doing it, but it's preventing us from developing the capacity is preventing us from feeling comfortable in doing that. And I think I said this before, but I'm going to say it again, okay? I've had so many patients who they're workaholics now. There's different reasons for workaholics. But the most dangerous I've heard so many people say this is not to get ahead in life. It's not to achieve their goals. It's not for fulfillment is to run away from their thoughts. That's the only reason to do it, because they're terrified of. Right. Okay. And again, with cell phones, that allows people to do that in some of the most harmful ways and there's so many other we can go on and on and on about this, but I'll curb my height, my rant. But the point is, truly, adults have a hard enough time doing that now. But kids are not even developing that capacity from a young age as parents from a younger and younger time are giving kids distractions. The cell phone, the iPads or whatever. So kids immediately are doing this. They're externalizing. I called this cell about 15, 20 years ago because it's starting to happen. And I said it's only going to get worse and we need that because that's one of the reasons kids mental health is deteriorating. So, I mean, there's so many factors. We've talked about, many of them in other podcasts. But again, that inability to self regulate, to slow things down on your own, to reflect, to think about things, to decide, or maybe I did this wrong, maybe I could do this better. Maybe this person is not my friend. To be able to do all of this in a controlled, slow or, you know, manner. Okay, we're robbing them of that capability. And that's terrifying. Yeah. And I can't remember the terminology that's used, but I've been seeing a lot of content about like these these exact kids, the ones who have been raised like from infancy on their iPads and iPhones and just the behavioral challenges that come along with it In the videos that I've watched, there are kind of, you know, to be comical. But as a as a psychotherapist watching it, it's really, really concerning to see the complete lack of self-regulation that these individuals have because they were robbed of the opportunity to develop that skill, because at the first sign of discomfort, they're being handed as a distraction. They're being handed something that allows them to not deal with what they're feeling and experiencing. Right. It's like a tech. It's a techno pacifier. Okay. And the difference is, even with the pacifier is the kid, even though it suits them. They're still with their thoughts. Yes. Right. But this no, it totally distracts them from that. And again, I'm telling you right now, when we talk about this, so many people today, we talk about in other podcasts the overdiagnosis of ADHD or ADHD. But the reality is whether people have it or not, we are kind of making people more susceptible to that. Again, because I keep saying this over and over, the need to slow things down. That's why, you know, in therapy, one of the first thing I teach people is proper breathing, because when you do that, you're regulating your system. I tell everybody, Look, everything that we do, everything we experience the world around us, it all gets filtered through the brain. Then if we're jacking that brain up on steroids, so to speak, with all this technology, blue light for, you know, novelty, always that work, that's not healthy. And we've talked before about getting that reset, going outside and looking at the sky, putting your hands in the ground. I mean, there's physiological changes that happen when you do these things and it's necessary. Now, I just went on vacation a few weeks ago and I'm saying from now on, when we go and I tell my wife, this happened the last time that we took a vacation, the room just happened to have an ocean view. Okay. So I when we were selecting hotels, I said it has to have an ocean view because I know what it does to me. And when I go to my mother, who lives out in the countryside and I'm sitting in one of the rooms, I'm just looking at all those trees or her pond or whatever, I can physically feel the reset. I tell my kids that all the time. I say, you know, look at nannies, look at the sky, look at the stars. Just sit there for 5 minutes. Just, you know, at least, okay? And I do that all the time. And it's again, it's rejuvenating and we're rubbing and we've talked what's on the podcast. You can do this. You don't need to go to the country, don't need to go to the Bahamas or whatever. You can do it anywhere outside. But kids are not being told that, you know, you want to you want to see the ocean, bring it up on the screen. Okay. Like, you know, that's the wrong thing. The electronics are not a substitute for nature because as this technology, these technological advances have only been around for a couple of generations to this degree, like humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years and our brains have been programed a certain way in sync with nature. These things, this is how we regulate this, how we have mental, better mental health, this is how we self-soothe, etc.. And again, parents are failing their kids if they don't allow them to. The parents are taking the easy way out. Okay? They're using it again. It's like a pacifier. It's like it's like the remote control for TV's and again, people are saying, you're worried too much about this and all that. There was a lot of hyperbole over the harms of TV, but the fact is there were some harms and this is beyond that because again, TV was in one place, one location only a certain amount of time. There's only certain things you can wash me for. my God, it's so boring with the cell phone. It's constant. It's right there. It's ever present and there's novelty literally anymore. You can find novelty any moment. And that's what the brain seeks is novelty. And I read that some teens are using their phones up to 16 hours a day. Like, I can't even comprehend that. Like when when is anything else getting accomplished or being done? And in their defense and even in the defense of parents, I think that we do find ourselves in a unique time as far as the advances in technology, but also let's not forget the role that the pandemic played and lockdowns. And this was the only way that a large number really all kids were able to communicate with each other, whether it was through the classroom, whether it was after school. All they had was technology. And, you know, in our adult lives, three years is not as significant as a developing child or teen who this was, you know, at a foundational time in their life where they learned, well, this is how we communicate. We do it on our phone, we do it on the computer. So that's going to be something really difficult to to break. And I think that we're now starting to see the true negative impact that that's having. Yeah. And I'm sure we talked was on the podcast. I'm sorry, this is going to be the drinking game where I'm sure we talked about another podcast, but and this would be known for many years and I think people need to really watch. Was it the Social Network? Was it I want to be sure get the right one because there was two. There was one That was the the story behind Facebook, but then there was the one that was just came out a couple of years ago that was a dramatized version of our of of social media in general. And they were I think people put in the descriptor and the description, but I forget the name of the person, one of the people behind it, but he was on a lot of talk shows, went on podcasts, and he really articulated the dangers we're talking about so well. And he knows better than we do because that's his job like he was in it. And the most famous thing that that's been going around is all those people in Silicon Valley, all the, you know, all the tech developers on if they had kids, they would not let their kids have a smartphone. That's all you need to know. They refuse to let their kids have smartphones. They had to have the most basic flip phones because they knew what they were creating. It's like something, right, for someone who's making a meal and saying, You know what? You guys need it. I won't need all my kids. You can have it. Hey, look, you have to question why that is. So people really have to understand that. And this is not hyperbole. And, you know, I like to use media, like movies, songs, shows, whatever, with my patients, because it's easier to see our own lives through the lens of others. And so we can connect with this. And because our when we're talking about ourselves, our defenses are up, we're watching a movie, the defenses are down, and something can resonate. So I'm going to say all these movies were made in the last 20 years at least, and before as well, but about like virtual reality, about people opting not to engage in real life, but rather through, you know, these virtual realities. Okay. Actually, even 15 years ago, 25, 30 years ago, and much more as well. Right. And it's becoming more and more of a reality that more and more people, whether it's about, you know, I would I can go to the temples in Egypt or whatever, or I can just, you know, look at it on my phone or the pyramids. I can look at my phone and get the same thing or VR or whatever. Right. That's one thing. But let's take it one step further and it is happening and we know it's happening. And this is leading the charge with AI and everything. It's going to be connection, connectedness. People are going to opt for an A.I. girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever, or friend. Okay. And whether it's physical, you know, A.I. physical robots, or whether it's just like, you know, chatGPT and so on, more and more people are doing that, thinking that it's easier, it's just as effective. It's just as, you know, as as rewarding and fulfilling. And it's not once again, it might seem that way, right? But the reality is our brains are programed and evolution doesn't change that quickly. We need that contact. We need that eye to eye, face to face and everything, even on screen time. It's not bad, but it's not the same we know physiologically as being in the person's presence. This has effects on our neurology. As I said earlier, everything filters through the brain. So if we're making all these changes, it's like giving somebody, you know, simulated food, it might taste great or whatever, but if there's absolutely no calories and no protein and no nutrition or whatever, we're not getting what we need from it. And it's the same with all these virtual variations of the stuff that we used to be doing, whether it's, again, connectedness, going somewhere, whatever else like that. We are robbing ourselves of what makes us human. Yeah, and we were talking before about justification. And I think that perhaps in part there is some justification of using technology more for communication because we also are hearing a lot about young folks being a lot more anxious and socially anxious. So I think that there's some level of justification because having this, you know, screen between us rather than being face to face and physical presence does reduce a little bit of the anxiety that they may be experiencing. So they justify it by saying, well, this is better. This is better because it feels better. But people don't forget that the more you avoid something that makes you anxious, the more it's going to make you when you are in that actual situation. So while on the face of it, and while immediately it may feel good long term, it's not right. And not only does it make you feel more anxious, but you're also less capable. So that fuels the anxiety as well, you know, functioning. And I've lost count of the number of people who said, you know, we had this great we spoke online for two months every day. It was it was great, the chemistry, whatever. And then we met and this person was nothing like they were online. It's a different dynamic. And yes, and once we go back to what we said earlier, which is going back to kids and everything, I mean, this is affecting adults and some adults who who grew up without this technology first, and it still affects them. But if that's all that you've known. Right. The fact is it's up to the adults in the room, teachers, politicians, policymakers, doctors, psychologists, psychotherapists, everyone. It's up to us to establish a structure and to make that structure the same most adaptive for kids. Because without that external structures, before without that external structure, kids don't learn to, you know, the structure and stability and security and so on. The kids don't learn to internalize that. And kids don't learn to, you know, again, to to create that internalized structure, the, you know, the ability to monitor, to regulate, to modulate your feelings. You're, you know, you're yourself in a situation. We need people in charge. And so many, again, so many parents, whatever else, they rationalize it. But, you know, they're doing it like we're just we're letting kids become their own selves and and blah, blah, blah, and we don't want interfere. No, you are lying to yourself. You are failing in your job. Your job is not to be it's not to be authoritarian. It's not to control and dominate, but it's to put that structure in place. And I think I've said this before, but I'm going to say it again. The people who are the most idealistic and most naive and most ignorant, they're the ones who think that if you put a whole bunch of children on an island without the, you know, the toxicity of adults and white supremacy and colonialism and blah blah, logic and progress, if you put all these kids on an island, you're going to get utopia. And I hate to burst your bubble. You put them all on the island you're going to get Lord of the Flies. Say, Lord of The Flies. Yeah. Exactly. If you don't know that reference, then. Then you're part of the problem. Google Lord of the Flies. Okay. Kids, rely on the adults in the situation to provide structure and guidance and and being over permissive is just as bad as, if not worse than being overly authoritarian. Yeah, we've talked about that another part. Exactly. And again, the research is pretty clear now. I crap all over research because there's a lot of research. It's bad a lot of it's not replicated. But the stuff that we're saying when we say this with such confidence is because this has been replicated over and over and over and over. And it's, you know, you can't deny it. Okay. so thinking back to this whole cell phone ban, I'm really wracking my brain as we're talking here of, you know, okay, So they they ban cell phones in classrooms. We've obviously identified a lot of the the reasons this is a great idea. But I'm wondering, can you think of anything that kids are going to miss out on without having their phones in the classroom with, again, the exception of those who need it for medical reasons and so on and so forth, those kids will obviously still have access to it. But I'm really at a loss here as far as like, is there going to be anything negative that comes out of this. Realistically, No. The negative is what the the people in charge, supposedly in charge. It's how they frame it and make the kids think that there's a negative one. I'm not getting immediate access with these fast changing world. Everything. We need information right away. Okay. Know what you need to be able to do is to be able to tolerate the discomfort that comes with not getting your needs satisfied. Right. Right. Being able to delay gratification that so anything that you might lose out on supposedly I think of the benefits that you get from not doing that. Again, being a better functioning person and the evidence is clear. Again, I know there's so much, so many other factors, but the fact that so many kids today are, again, high level, the highest level of anxiety, depression, stress, sleeplessness, social anxiety, you know, lack of self advocacy, self agency feeling that I have, you know, I'm a nothing in this world and everything like that. Okay. A big part of it is the cell phones. It's it's undeniable. So I think that, again, they're taking it away for and we're not talking about for you know, for a whole day we're talking about between, you know, in these periods and teaching children, sorry for this next 45 minute block, you need to be able to sit down, focus on what's going on around you. And yes, do a lot of teachers suck? Yes, a lot of teachers are terrible. They don't do their best to keep the kids interested, whatever. I get that. But guess what? That's what a lot of life is like. And again, if a child can't sit there and I'm talking right now and again, we've seen this in so many contexts, if a child can't do that for 45 minutes in a class, how do you expect them to go into a job and do something that requires sustained concentration? And again, adults themselves, 40, 50 years old, we're watching them. They're out their job or whatever. They can't help but go to their phone and check and check and check. Right. Adults are doing this who haven't been raised this way. How are kids going to be able to function? You can't be constantly distracted. You need to be grounded and to be able to focus on the present, on the reality around you. And again, we talk about the introspection. It's not just about that. Again, it's being present here and it's a cliche. I know and we've been talked about before, and I hate to say it, but go to any restaurant, go to any food court. Good, any schoolyard good, any park and watch the young people around. And it's not even young people, older people as well. Right. In every say almost every case you get a circle. They're all on their damn phones. Yeah, every single week. It just gets taken away from the from the present. Yeah. And thinking about, you know, again, drawbacks of doing this in the classroom. Yeah. In the immediate know, of course I think overall it's going to be a good thing. But I do wonder if we're likening this to addiction. There's probably going to be some level of withdrawal of them that we're seeing. And I think that unless the consequences are consistent for kids breaking this rule, I don't think this is going to stick, nor is it going to be effective. Well, yeah, I think I said another podcast about this withdrawal that you're saying. I think I said that a few a number of years ago. I may have mentioned it, but they do study with adults. This is before cell phones became this ubiquitous. Okay. That virtually I think it was like within one day without their cell phones and they had access to regular phones. They had access to their computer, but they couldn't have access cell phone. Within one day, a certain proportion of a large proportion of the people started showing signs of withdrawal. They were twitching. They were getting they're anxious, They were having headaches even. Right. And so, yes. So there will be some withdrawal, but better to do it now, help wean them off, so to speak, because again, we're not saying take away forever. We're saying being able to learn to live for blocks of time without this access. And by the way, there's a whole bunch of people, the Transhuman movement, where they're saying, no, this is good. This is the next step to our next stage of evolution, cyborgs. And you know what? The phones essentially it is like being like a cyborg. We have all this access to information and we can do all these amazing things and this is going to be the glasses like you'll be you know, they tried that with Google before with the Google glasses. This is coming up because all the different companies are, you know, using these technologies and they're enhanced and they're calling it enhancing our experience. Yes. And so we are becoming like cyborgs. So I don't know where this is all going to go. And I'm going to be the old person and say, no, I'm old school. I am going to talk to real human beings. I'm you know, I'm not going to rely on AI and so on. So I might be the one person who still, you know, who's going to be left behind. I'm going to be the Luddite. But this is not just about technology is supposed to enhance our experience. Yes, okay, I get it. But I can see and anyone else who knows about the human condition and we're talking about this can see that for all the enhancements, it's also detracting from, again, the human condition. And I love technology. I love my VR, I like my phone and my computer, everything else like that. I love that. But I'm watching children changing in front of our eyes and we talk about another podcast with all these kids being entitled and so on. Okay, So if people would watch that, they would see that they are they're having exposure to so many influences, those that are not their parents, not, you know, not good influences, it's their own peers. And we know that peer influence is much more powerful than virtually anything else. And when you're exposed to it all the time on this phone and it's mostly toxic messages, what do you expect? What kind of kids you think we're going to be producing? Yeah, exactly. And I'll echo that, too, right? I love technology as far as my visual impairments concerned. It's enhanced my life so much. I would say if I had this level of impairment 30 years ago, I wouldn't be able to function the way that I do now without technology. So obviously technology can can play a significant role in people's lives. But I think that the big tool that people need to begin to develop and refine is understanding that difference between where something good enhances your life, but then where that line is, where it starts detracting, as you said. So I think that, yeah, certainly if we're in implementing this in schools right now, hopefully by the time these kids are adults, they'll be able to have that that ability and skill refined. My concern lies within a lot of what you said there. As far as you know, there's a lot of toxic stuff that's happening at at school. During school, after school. And when they have access to it all day long, that obviously is quite problematic. I am curious to see what role the ban of cell phones will play, perhaps in making it be more like when when we were kids. I think back to, you know, at least when there is bullying back then, at the end of the day, it was over. Obviously, it won't be the same because they also have access to their phones. But I am curious to see what role this might play in cyber bullying and some of the toxic behavior that's happening, because it won't be as as constant as it is currently. Right. And I just want to add one more layer. It's funny cause I used to talk about all the time well, with bullying. So yeah, if you can make it home, at least you had some respite like eight, 12 hours or whatever. But now, you know, whether it's a phone, whether it's a computer, it's always there. But here's a thing. One more thing about the addictiveness of it, whether you've sent a message to somebody and you're waiting to hear back from them or whether you're in some kind of conflict or whether you think that people are gossiping about you or something like that. Okay. When you feel that your own well-being, your safety, whatever it is, your status in a group is at risk. Okay. You're constantly checking. That's normal because you're so anxious. my God. my God. I know. And it can be something trivial. And I've had so many patients who are adults, they're embarrassing. I can't believe it. You know, I sent out a text and I'm like, like it, kid. Just waiting for the person to respond. Do they respond? And they keep looking. That's the human condition for most people. And again, the ability to self-regulate, to show restraint, to be able to go. I do want to look I want to see if they respond. It is not time sensitive. So it's not it's not an emergency. Can I hold off and not check every 30 seconds or something like that? And I've been caught up in that as well. If I'm waiting for an important email or something like that, I'm checking, I'm checking and I have to catch myself. It's when it's when it's always there. It's so hard to be mindful of that because it's part of the environment. It's just again. So it's as if people who watch their, you know, look at their watch or who clock watch, whatever it same thing. Once it becomes a habit, it's so hard not to do. So I'm kind of jumping the gun here. But at the end we always talk about what can people do about it? Well, as a parent, I try to instill these things into it as a kid. But before then, whether you're an adolescent, whether you're the adult yourself, try to instill it in yourself. And we talked before about this sorry. Okay. With my thing where I try not to go onto X first thing in the morning because if I so trying to have little things in place so you know and kids have to learn this well we need baby steps can't happen outright ban it's okay you know you're quitting cold turkey that's too much of a shock to the system. So helping people recognize that is not punishment. It's not punitive. It's not bad. This is for your own good, which no kid likes to hear that that's a reality. And for ourselves as adults, we need to not because we're being forced to do it as an adult, but that we're saying I just recognize that I am not in control of my own mind. If I quickly checking if I'm reflexively checking and so on, I need to try to put on a restraint. And again, I'm not going to do it cold turkey. I'm going to ease my way into a gradual graduated approach to trying to more and more disengage age from my device. Okay. And again, self-restraint, self-control, delayed gratification, impulse control, you know, all of that is necessary to be a successful person. We know this. The research is clear, and we need children to be able to feel that way as well, and to know that when I'm doing all of these things, I'm not anxious. At first it might be uncomfortable. That is, you and I always say we're trying to help people learn to be able to to was to be more comfortable with the discomfort or to tolerate the discomfort. And that's one of the most important skills, traits, capacities that somebody can develop. Because if you can't do that, you're, you know, you're not functioning nearly as well as people can. Yeah, Yeah. And my recommendations as far as what people can do, completely echo that as far as setting predictable structure and control over your devices, don't let your devices control you. You are the one that controls them and you control your usage and how much and how little and so on and so forth. And as far as what parents can do to help prepare their kids for these inevitable bans would be exactly what you said, setting that structure around it, setting parameters around it. And I would even say having household rules surrounding devices and we spoke about this before in another episode, but having dinner time without devices I think is one of the best things that people can do. And I get it. You know, I, I run a business, I have my phone on me all the time. There's important stuff that comes in, but rarely is there going to be

00 and 630. It can wait because that's family time, a half an hour isn't a lot, but it is enough in so far as being able to develop a habit that sticks and prioritizes time together in time in the present and not time on your device. Right. And and just look. And when we're doing this, have patience with the kids because it's really a big ask that we're doing with these kids. If they've been raised with these kinds of devices and for ourselves have self-compassion. Because I'm telling you right now, look, I know I fail in many time and many times in many ways to put those restrictions is whether it's my phone or my laptop, if I'm working on my book or something like that and I get into it and, you know, I'm with my family or extended family and I'm doing it and I know and I know it, piss people off. So, you know, like, I have to recognize that and know we can't shame ourselves because if we shame, shame is shame is the worst emotion. It's disempowering. Okay. So we can be embarrassed, we can be upset, we can hope for better for ourselves. But we to do everything we're talking about with compassion and especially, again, if you're if you've already got control of yourself, if you're an older adult and you're okay, you're not a slave to your device, but your kids are have compassion for them because they don't have the willpower that you have and most people don't. Adults or children. Right. So, again, compassion, patience, tolerance. But it has to be implemented. These you know, these restrictions, these changes, whatever. And by the way, if you're a parent, if a kid's really upset that they're having this ban or if teachers are being jerks about it, whatever we talked was in other podcasts, don't ruin the narrative. Tell the kid, yeah, I know you don't like it, etc., but this is necessary. You need to do this. I know you're not going to get it. Maybe don't like right now, but trust me, down the road you're going to realize that this is for your betterment. It's not a punishment. Yeah. Yeah. So, listeners, what do you think about the cell phone bands? Do you think they're a good thing, a bad thing to agree with what you said, disagree. Let us know in the comments. All right. And on that note, until next time, keep your eyes on the road in your hands upon the wheel.