Breaking the Silence: The Untold Crisis of Men's Mental Health

just being a male gender, you know, as little boys that we are socialized differently, we are conditioned differently, we are programed differently. For example, a little girl cries. Nobody will call her a lesbian. Right. But when a little boy cries, somebody, will call him a fagot, a sissy, a punk, and so on. Hello and welcome to Awake at the Wheel. So in today's episode, we're going to be focusing on men's mental health. So obviously I'm not a man. However, this topic is really important to me because the majority of clients that I work with in my psychotherapy practice are men, specifically men who are first responders. So you know that the typical masculine man And one of the challenges that arises with this demographic is stigma surrounding accessing mental health. Talking about mental health, or even accepting that mental health challenges can arise. So to help us discuss this topic today, we have a guest. We have Mark Tuggle joining us from Harlem, New York. He is an author and a men's mental health advocate. He has been featured in many media outlets, such as on the radio and on TV. So, Mark, we're so glad to have you here. Thanks for being with us. Thank you. It's an honor and a privilege to be here with you. All right. So why don't you tell us a little bit about what got you into this space where your interest developed as far as focusing on men's mental health? Well, I'm a person with lived experience. I was clinically diagnosed with anxiety depression about 29 years ago. And for many, many years I never talked about. It was typical of my culture and my gender, which is what I call the whole culture of silence. And about four years ago, I put this in my spirit to do some writing around my own personal journey with mental health. And I wasn't sure it was going to be an essay or haiku or a poem or a play, but I knew I needed to express myself and I was having some dark days and difficult times. So I called a friend of mine and he suggested that we consider inviting other men so that we would kind of relieve the burden with me telling my story all by myself. And so we decided to come with an anthology. Know So there's the book called Culture Silence and Wounded Souls. Black Men Speak About Mental Health. It's an intergenerational anthology. Is 30 men from different backgrounds, and they talk about anxiety, depression, isolation, loss, PTSD, stress, trauma, drug misuse, paranoia, schizophrenia, suicidal ideation, etc.. And I just wanted to be of service to black men whose voices are normally left out of the conversation publicly. Professionally, black men tend to be underdiagnosed or misdiagnosed. There's a lot of challenges around colonialism, imperialism and racism, the way we are treated in society. So I want to make sure that black men have a voice to express themselves. Unplugged. So what you get in the book, you're not going to get on BET or CNN or Fox News. Yeah. So as far as those cultural factors, I think that that's something that I really want to touch on a little bit more. So, of course, there's societal factors and external factors, but I think that culture has played a role for so many generations as far as men and their ability to to speak about their emotions. And you mentioned in your book there's a lot of different cultures that were involved in the writing of this, which is amazing. And I can speak about my background as South Asian. There is a lot of stigma around both men and women talking about their mental health. I often make the joke that I don't really think my family understands what I do for a living fully, simply because that stigma exists in terms of, you know, really getting down to what's happening. So can you tell us a little bit about some of those cultural factors that maybe you were able to highlight in your book. Where you mentioned stigma and stigmas rooted in shame and secrets on the black community? Typically, we're taught to not put our business three to die, to die dirty laundry. What says in the home stays in a home? And so family and secrets are a dangerous combination because if you tell a secret, it can break the family. But if you keep a secret, you can break your spirit. And that was my experience. Feeling broken, feeling alone, feeling lost, feeling confused and misunderstood. Mental health is a taboo subject. I mean, culturally, up until the fifties, I mean, black people were not seeking professional help for any of their personal challenges. Even even today. When you say mental health, you may not necessarily think of a black male. That may not be the first image that comes to your mind. And so mental health sometimes can be a mask for issues around manhood. You know, even today, sometimes we call the boy when we go someplace publicly. So there's there's a stigma of of gender, the stigma of culture. There's a stigma of pride. Image. Ego. We live in a society where people don't care so much about how you feel about what you do. Like when you meet somebody, first thing I ask you is, what do you do? So no one will ask you, How do you feel? And when no one asked you how you feel, you can be begin to believe that your feelings are not important. You just don't talk about them. Okay, So I want to ask you, from your experience, from your either lived experience or in talking to people or knowledge of these things. If we look, let's say, at the experience of, say, an American black man and of course, there's as many black men as there are in America, there's that many experiences. But if we try to sort of think of that as kind of as a group, if you think, let's say from let's say early, early 20th century, you know, 1900 and so on, up to now, do you see it as as far as as far as, let's say, being open about challenges, being able to seek access to mental health and so on? Have you seen it as a you know, the trajectory has been increasing, has been getting better, or did it get better then it got worse as it been up and down? What has that trajectory been like for helping black men? That's a loaded question because you use the word trajectory and, you know, we're not starting at the same spot as everyone else in society. So it's not as if we're climbing a mountain that we created. So, you know, we live in a society where we are not affirmed, we are not love, we are not respected, we are not value, we're not honored. So we have to deal with all the racial, some of the microaggressions, the white body supremacy that all back to talks about. So today, in 2024, it is still very difficult to get a black man to say I'm hurting. Those are the words you're not going to hear very often. You may hear someone say, well, I feel some type of way or I'm pissed off. Right. But to actually take off that may ask to become transparent and become vulnerable, which takes a lot of courage, a lot of integrity. It is so many centuries of unlearning that we have to do. So it's it's difficult. But I want to be part of the movement where it becomes more normal to talk about how we feel, what we believe, what hurts our heart so we can begin to heal. Because we are we are wounded and we need to heal. So a lot of what you said there, Mark, is I want to be incredibly sensitive here. And of course, understanding that your experience isn't my experience, but just, you know, from an observational standpoint, a lot of what you describe there, I think, does generalize to men, whether black, white, Asian, whatever the case may be in terms of being able to to feel comfortable, confident, able, equipped, whatever, to acknowledge and talk about their mental health and their emotions. Like you mentioned, anger, for example. That's typically one of the things I see presenting most is anger. But what we know about anger is it can often be masking. So many other emotions. So for you, do you think that there is overlap and commonality amongst men in general? I do. I do. I mean, I've talked to men from all around the world, and mental health is a stigma that's connected to our gender. So regardless of whether you were born in Alaska or New Zealand or Brazil or Cuba, just being a male gender, you know, as little boys that we are socialized differently, we are conditioned differently, we are programed differently. For example, a little girl cries. Nobody will call her a lesbian. Right. But when a little boy cries, somebody, will call him a fagot, a sissy, a punk, and so on. So just in terms of his gender, the way he is perceived and treated, he learns very early on that it's not safe to express emotion that leaves you vulnerable because someone's going to hurt you, they're going to harm you, they won't judge you. They're going to question your character, your gender, your sexuality. You learn it very early on when you're a boy. It's different for girls, you know, girl, typically they get a hug. Are you okay? What's wrong, baby? Okay. The boys get blamed for how they're feeling. You must have said something. You must do something to get toughen up. Got stuck up. You got it, man up. You get this kind of stuff when you're young, you know, sometimes parents will say, you got to be the man of the house and you're eight years old and you don't want to disappoint your mother. So you grow up believing that you have to be the man, even though you're still a little boy. You know, girls don't have to have the same dynamic. It's very different. Yeah, that's such an interesting point that you made. That really was a light bulb for me, that this naturally occurring thing like crying that all kids, whether male or female experience is is treated so vastly differently amongst boys and girls. And I would say, again, culture plays a huge role in that as well. As far as, you know, what men need in terms of being able to open up. What do you think is currently missing? A lot is missing. I think language is missing. We don't have the emotional literacy that it takes to express the meaning dimensions of our emotional experience. And so it's down up to say, I'm pissed off. Right. So can can a man say, I feel insecure, I feel betrayed, I feel sad, you know, because our society kind of labels the emotions as positive or negative or good at bad or right or wrong emotions tend to have a value judgment that we did not create as men. But we are told very early on, as always, that this is not right to say out loud. Right. And I'll give an example. When I was a kid, I have six brothers this morning in Chicago. Our parents took us to see The Wiz of a Dorothy Stephanie Mills was playing Dorothy, and I'm not sure you guys are familiar with The Wiz I saw it as a kid. I saw how. Stephanie Mills played Dorothy stuff the most amazing, and she sang home. You know, she reached a crescendo. She had such a powerful voice. She touched my spirit, right? I must have been nine. And I started crying because she touched my spirit. And some of my brothers and sisters started to laugh at me. Now, I don't believe it was malicious. Sometimes you just get that sibling, you know, energy that's nervous, uncomfortable. They’d never seen me cry in public. But I learned through the therapy that I had developed, the fear of being publicly humiliated. Yeah. And this is what I learned, like, decades later. Right. And so I never felt safe again to cry even to this say, I'm 63, I got a baby face. Thank you. Say, you're so. I know, I know. So. Even to this day that you know, the fear of being public humiliate, the crying in public is not natural. That trauma happened at a very young age. And it's just goes to show that boys and girls, they're not allowed the same grace in the same space to express their emotions. So, Oren, I know you want to jump in, but I just want to add something in there just to kind of, you know, be a little contrarian here that I think that yes, I agree with you. In North American culture, that is absolutely true. But again, bringing in my experience as a South Asian, I think a lot of Asian cultures, that is true of females as well. So or and I think you and I have joked before, I'm a bit of a robot and that does come from the fact that it wasn't culturally acceptable for me to express my emotions in a lot of the same things that you said that, you know, if I cry, I'm viewed as we get if I have any emotion other than happiness or anger, It's unacceptable, culturally speaking. But I would agree that in North American culture, that is especially highlighted with males. Right. And I was going to say, first of all, thanks for referencing The Wiz. Every once in a while I'll put on Facebook, I'll put Can't you feel a brand new day? And that brings tears to my eyes because I saw The Wiz with my brother. He passed away, unfortunately, two years ago. And he's he's also black. He was adopted and I just met my brother. I going to see The Wiz. And, you know, it's just it's it's amazing the power of memory of music. You know, I don't think right now I'm getting emotional because that was something that connected my brother and I. We didn't connect on that many things, but as kids, we clicked on so many things. But I remember The Wiz just so for bringing that up, Thank you. No one ever references, so I do appreciate that. Marc, first of all, you would never have guessed your age. That's okay. That's, you know, good on you. But I was going to say, you're probably old enough then. Well, it is definitely enough to remember. Do you know the record? Free to be you and me. Yeah. It was a hippie record that came out in the early seventies, probably. I know my mom had it, but there was a song that was called It's All Right to Cry, and the whole premise was that pressure was for boys, but even back then, they were trying to get it out because only certain segments of society. So, you know, like really the hippie side was trying to say back then, you know, again, everything that you're talking about. So it's been around for quite some time. What do you think is sort of impeding society is picking up that message because, you know, you still having to fight to get it out there. What's with stopping it? I think, you know, we don't really have the models to show us that it's okay to not be okay. Sometimes that's we don't have people in our families, in our neighborhoods, even people that work at school who model a humane way of dealing with difficult, unpleasant emotions, you know, and we don't really have the resources, you know, So there's there's some men who want professional help, for example, but they don't have money, they don't have insurance, they don't have the information. They don't even know where to go, which is another reason why I wanted to focus on resources in my book, because it's important to know what to do, where to go, who to talk to. And sometimes when those questions are not answered, you just kind of like deal with it on your own. So it's helpful to have spaces where we can go. And I advocate for, you know, creating your own space. You may be on social media support group, inviting people to your home once a month, once a week, and sit in a circle in Utah. But we need spaces where we can be free to just be yourself. Whether that's a podcast radio, you don't get it on television, you know. But we do need those spaces where we can just just be present. And it's in your bio, you were saying I want to use the words that use a same gender loving spiritual being gay with strong sense of justice. So joy. And for that, to me, that joy that is gay is bisexual, pansexual. What is your like? Well, I'm going to get to self-identify as Same-Gender Loving, because that's a term that was rooted in what are unique as a black life and culture. I value the spiritual principles of Kwanzaa, which we just celebrated at 7.6 on January 1st. And so one of the principles is quality time to leave, which means self-determination. So instead of being defined, they and created and spoke for by others. We define ourselves, name ourselves, create for ourselves, and speak for itself. So I value the spirit of autonomy when it comes to identifying myself and not just blindly accepting what society says I identify myself with on my birthday as a Negro, right? I am not a Negro as a movie. I am not a Negro. Right? So that but that was on my birth certificate, but that that's not come from me or my grandfather. Right. So as a single man, I'm attracted to men, but I that's how I identify it. So some people call it okay. SGL So that's the way I see it. Okay. So the reason I ask is do you find that, let's say among black men, whether it's age, whether it's whether they were raised by both parents, whether it's whether they're gay or straight or same gender loving? Like do you find certain groups either are more amenable to what you're promoting or, you know, they're more resistant? No, I don't. I mean, I live in Harlem, and this summer I was on 25th Street, you know, selling my book and talking to people from all walks of life. Your heart is not what it was when I first came here at 86. So I've talked to people from different generations, different orientations, different religious backgrounds. And there's a common theme around stigma, around shame, around silence, around image, around manhood, anxiety, not feeling safe, not trusting anyone, wearing that mask around anxiety and depression. We just don't talk about it. You know, we talk about the game, we talk about the weather. We talk about we're going to have a dinner at night, but we don't talk about how we feel. And that is universal as you know. It really transcends gender and culture and faith and orientation. But, you know, I self-identify as a black man. That's my moniker. And so that's this book that I've written. This centers Black men are meant to help. But I talk to people in UK and Canada and South Africa, and they told me that we have the same story is human, And so, I mean, but there is a cultural and by culture, when I say culture, I mean any that's not biological. So I use a very broad term. So I mean, culture plays such a huge role in how we see ourselves, how we identify how, you know, what what we think are the norms and everything like that. So what would you say? Let's say in the last generation or so, culturally speaking, has either made your challenge more difficult or more accessible, easier for you to promote in the last I say generation? Well, 29 years ago, I was diagnosed with HIV and I had a friend who live with the AIDS virus. So he suggested that I see a therapist. And at the time I thought therapy was rich, crazy, white people? it's not uncommon. Thought so. But, you know, I was attracted to her spirit in the way she was living and how she could turn a life around. So I was open to a suggestion. My therapist was a female, 26 year old heterosexual from Bosnia. We were completely opposites. And she said, Mark, I'm here to assist you. What the quality of your life. I saw her every Wednesday for three years and she taught me so much. We never even talked about HIV. Right? And so my journey into this space woman now began with my whole lived experience being in therapy, being open support groups, and then talking to other friends who had similar health challenges. I've seen people come and go, It's amazing. I'm still here to tell my story, but more and more men are accessing therapy, talking to life coaches, going to support groups, building their own podcast. You go on Instagram, you'll see people talking openly about mental health every single day. But also you have the other side, only 1%. Psychotherapist in USA, black men write, Black men die by suicide three times rate of black women. Suicide is the third leading cause of death amongst Black men between 25 and 34. So we don't really have a balance, right? We don't have a balance emotionally, financially, socially. So there's so much that we have to do. But I want to be part of that movement where it becomes more and more normal that we can have these conversations, we can have a dialog and we can talk about that wounded soul that need to be on the inside. So Mark and I love that you brought that up about therapy because that actually touches on one of the main questions that I did have and was having trouble formulating the thought. So that's, that's perfect segue way. You brought up the point that there are there is a disproportionate number of, let's say, black male therapists to support the black male population. So either speaking from your lived experience or your general opinion, tell me your thoughts on the allyship that can exist between, you know, therapists like myself where like Oren working with the black community and still being effective because our our team strives to be culturally competent in everything that we do. But at the end of the day, our lived experience may not be the exact same, but that also doesn't detract from our ability to be able to provide robust help. So I guess what my question is kind of twofold. What can therapists do to enhance that, that degree of allyship? And then what can people who are accessing therapy do to kind of see past the fact that maybe their therapist is different in their experiences, but still able to provide robust, real, genuine help? Well, I mean, I was fortunate that my therapist, like I said, we were so opposite culturally gender and it worked out. And that's not a common experience for a black man. You know, you get what you get. And I was so broken, I didn't care whether, you know, what she was from orientation. I knew somebody talk. So like I'm knowing that since I was a kid. Right. So it helps when a therapist has worked on their own stuff because sometimes that does not happen. You have to do a car transference. Trust me, I've had some of those stories so that that help from the therapist has done their own work and that they're open to the racial trauma, that they're open to exploring how racism impacts the life of a black man. You don't have to be black to have a dialog, but if that's not a safe space to talk about that, that it may not be a good fit. I remember having a Latino therapist who was gay identified and he couldn't accept me identifying a Same-Ggender Loving. He kept trying to impose his queer identity on me and that just didn't work. And so after a month I had to move on because he just didn't. You didn't get that. That's not how I see myself, and I don't have to. So, you know, it helps to have someone who models. You mentioned cultural confidence. That's really important. But then again, you know, every black male therapist is not going to give you what you need. Each person has to find out what works for them. Therapy is not a one size fits all solution. And I think sometimes service providers tend to shame men who choose not to engage in therapy. Right? It should not be the barometer or litmus test for getting help that you need, but being closely connected, being racially sensitive, being flexible by having the compassion, having the empathy, those are the things that I think are really important in treating the whole person. A holistic approach to the person who's sitting in front. And I'm going to take that to another level. Slightly different but very relevant analogy. I've talked about this before, and I say this with a smile because Malini is a woman, but she and I think she knows we're going to go with this. But at least in Canada I have seen and we call it I've called it the feminization of psychology. And and, you know, it's not to do with one's sex or gender, but, you know, it's just that that's the term that we've used feminized, you know, feminine, masculine. But the point is, I've had so many patients over the years male, female, old, young. Doesn't matter where they say my therapist was useless. All she did. And as usual, she, you know, was just sympathize. And I even empathize more about sympathize. And they said, I want more. I want to be challenged. I want to be held accountable. I want to be, you know, be pushed to be the best that I can be as opposed to being coddled and so on. So I'm curious, in your own experience when you're looking and I know that your first lived experience was with a woman, but when you're looking at and you're trying to advocate getting men into therapy and so on, are you seeing that there may be some issue with whether it's a man or a woman, you're saying kind of imposing their own operating system onto the patient, or are you seeing that like, you know, especially when you were dealing with a man that way to deal with a man may in some cases be different than how you deal with a woman, you know, and sometimes it's the same. So have you seen an issue with the gender of the or the sex of the therapist? I have. I have. And again, everyone's experience is different. But, you know, sometimes some men prefer women, you know, or maybe because they don't have a great relation with their father, you know, And then you have some men who don't trust men who look like them, right? So everyone has their own bias, their own prejudice, their own internal demons that they have to kind of like wrestle with sometimes. I don't believe there's like one model for success when it comes to therapy and social work. And, you know, I have my journey, everyone has theirs and you have to find what works for you as an individual, you know? But there are differences among sex and gender. But I think sometimes when they get generalized, I don't know how helpful that is, Right? So, I mean, there's studies, does research. I mean, I know now most of the men that I talk to prefer talking to a black male. That's what they prefer. But then when they get in the office, they will have, maybe this is not the right black male for me. So, you know, and if I can't do the. Research to learn. Okay, So then he went to go this day, then he went to go play. Now he's in training and he's like, I mean, come on. And if I can touch on Oren's point here and not to say that I've got it figured out or anything like that, but like I mentioned from the get go, I work with a lot of men and I think that, you know, even though I'm a petite, soft spoken woman, I am able to work quite well with men because I'm not implementing this overly feminized handholding. Let's talk about just our feelings and imposing a certain agenda on to males. I think that there does need to be a recognition that the way in which therapy and of course not to overgeneralize there's exceptions to everything, but you know, the way in which a female is going to respond to therapy is likely going to be different than the way that, let's say, a black man who grew up in a household where feelings weren't acceptable, that psychotherapy needs to look very different. But I think of the challenges that a lot of men find is that they are walking into a one size fits all cookie cutter type of modality, and that's what puts people off from therapy. I agree. I agree. Because, you know, we're kind of bombarded, in my opinion, by contemporary feminists, gender theorists, intersectional people, the MeToo movement. You know, that most black male studies go on in college. And so the thought around therapy, social work, mental health, lots of wellness healing tends to be very female dominated in our society. And so our voices are pretty much neglected, unheard. And even when a man talks about how he feels, he gets labeled as being complaining, being bitchy. So it is so difficult just to be in a safe space where you feel that you're being heard and that the woman is not telling you to be a man. Right. Because you get that when you're a boy. All right? So when you go in a therapist's office and the woman has the same type of perspective on manhood and it comes out professionally and you don't know how to deal with that, you may call her a name that's not pleasant. You know what I'm saying? I mean, anything can happen. So you're right. It's not a cookie cutter thing, but there are very, very differences between being treated by gender. And I think the more the black, you know, talk to now, they really prefer to talk to a black man. so this is this is a great landmine here. And I'm going to try to ask it not too clumsily, not sure what kind of answer you can provide, but there's so many layers to it, which is would you agree, first of all, that one of the biggest problems in the last many years, let's say, among black youth, male youth in particular, is the lack of a male, you know, a positive black male role model, whether the father, a coach, a teacher or something like that. Okay. But that I want to talk about trajectories earlier that, you know, in society there have been trends with, you know, the two parent household, for example, up until, you know, I guess maybe the sixties, I think it was around 6070s, among the black among black people was pretty high and then has dropped quite a bit. And people are attributing that or correlating that with a lot of the issues we're seeing with, you know, black youth. Do you think that's overly simplistic? Do you think that's unfair? Do you think that is not taking into account other factors? Do you think it's adequate or fair? What would you say about that kind of thinking. Oversimplistic of simplistic, unfair? Again, we don't own the media, so we're not programing the stories. And quite often when you look in a newspaper, you see a black man on the front or the back crying. In sports, those are the images that we see every single day. So even though, for example, you have white kids who are using drugs, you don't see them on the news. Right. When a black kid using drugs is on news like this going to jail. So there's a whole different perspective because of the images that we see. So there are white youth who have the same issues that black kids have, but they're treated just legally, morally, socially, ethically, etc.. So that's a really dangerous that's a really dangerous assumption to make that that black boys are a struggle with black parents in a way that the other boys don't because other other kids grow up without a parent, too. But we don't see that story being told. Well, actually, I don't know, At least in Canada. I've seen some cases more and more where they are saying the like, That's what I'm trying to say. What you're what you're since was among those among black youth. But I say in general that when we do see single parent household as a hot topic to deal with or a hot button topic where, you know, the lack of a policy, a male role model again, does take away the color of the skin. Just having that male role model, whether a teacher, coach, parent that that is one of the issues that is kind of contributing to some of the problems among youth. So if we take out the color, would you say that that is something that you are seeing that again, lack of positive male role models? Yeah. I mean, I mean, you use the word oversimplistic, so I kind of like that. Yeah. I mean, it is a contributing factor, you know, I had a father who was physically present but was emotionally absent. So you have that dynamic, you know, because he worked 40 hours a day and then he had a furniture business. So he was not home. He was not emotionally present. My needs were not being met. But you have that dynamic then you have a dynamic of the black boy who has no father, is never seen as following. They've never met his father. So you have that void. So those are contributing factors. But that's not the only factor. It's not the main factor. It is a huge factor. But I don't want to generalize by saying, Well, you don't have a father. You can't be heavy, heavy, loving. You can't be kind, because that's not true, right? Because there are also single parents who are black men. But that image is not being presented. That story's not being told. When you think of a single parent, of all that single female. Right, who put that image into our mind, we didn't do that. So there are a lot of success stories of black men who are successful, their fathers very successful, very hands on. But those stories, those images, those myths are not being told through the media. And so we go back to, okay, he didn't have a father's problems on drugs in prison. That's not unique to black boys, but those are the stories that you get on television, in the movies, etc.. And then you got, someone like me, who gets overprotective, somewhat defensive, Right. Because, you know, there's so much to our humanity that has not been shown. And I want to be part of that change. Okay. So how are you being part of that change? You're speaking, you're writing books, you're collaborating to impact. So how else are you doing? They are you you know, you're modeling these behaviors. You know so. Well now, you know, I'm just one person from one person in the role. So I'm an author, I'm an educator, I'm an advocate, I'm a humanitarian. You know, I'm single, no kids. I have nephews who love what I'm doing. I have a neighbor who has a grandson, is 12 years old. He's Latino. He came to me, they said, Mark, I'm reading your book and I love it. 12 years old. Right. But to me, that's my reward. That's my reward. 12 year old boy, I don't even know his name, but he's reading my book because he was just diagnosed with ADHD. Right? So that's a different lived experience that he's having at a very young age. I don't know how he's coping, but now he has a tool right because there are resources in the book that supports me that I can touch the younger generation, right? Because I believe in each one, teach one. That's what the real taught us. And I could be a service that way anonymously. I'm not trying to be what you're famous. You know, if Oprah calls, I'll take her call. But my intention is to be of service and I think is working pretty well so far. Can you talk a bit about some of the tools in your book? Yeah, the tools. You know, I also use the word toy because I think that it's important to have options, choices, solutions. So there are advocates in the book, there are clinicians, there are educators, there are podcasts. You can listen to their videos, you can watch their organizations, you can connect with. I think that people should know that there's certain things they can do to employ self-care, like exercise, walking, nature, comedy, music, sports, journaling, right? You don't always have to see a professional for your healing, and that's going to have to be the end. All. Neither one. That's not for everybody. It worked for me, but it doesn't work for everyone. But there's so many ways that we can take care of ourselves that we're not taking care of ourselves. And those are some of these good audiobooks which. This is one of the most important questions, whether it's about therapy, about any type of motivation, which is and I don't know if you can answer this, but have you how do you find kind of helping people bridge the gap between understanding something and then doing they go, hey, that message made sense or Hey, I want to change, but how do we translate that into action? Have you found a way to sort of motivate people to get that next step? Well, I mean, honestly, the people who bought the book and many of them don't look like me. You know, I've had a number of professional women who are saying black patients. They were very helpful, very inspired. I mean, older people older than me who said, I want to do this to my nephew, to my son, to my brother, you know, So it's my intention was to be of service and to also break the cycle of generations, harming my own family and try to build that capacity. You know, But I also have my shortcomings as well. So there's only so much I can do as an individual. You know, you talk about understanding of the accent. You know, I can model my behavior for someone else, but they may not be ready or willing to take that next step, you know? So I've had to accept my own shortcomings and just kind of get out the way. You know, people call me, we discuss things. I may give them a suggestion. I just may listen and maybe six months later, said, Mark, you know what? I decided to go back to Jim, right? Or I decided to join a support group. I decided to write a book or whatever they decided to do, and they put that in the act. And you have other people just you know, they're going to be watching football all day of everyone's goal is different. It was path is different, everyone's journey is different. But the best that we can do is the best that we can do, and that's all we can do. So Mark, in this podcast, we end off every episode with talking to our listeners about what they can do with all this, because we we've touched on so many different things, but we want to leave people with something tangible. So I'm wondering your thoughts on, you know, for, for anyone listening, whether they are a parent of a young man or what if they're whether they're going through this themselves, what are maybe some first steps that a parents can take of young boys and be what men do if they're like, okay, you know, maybe it's time for me to do something? What could be a first step? Well, I think a parent can ask their children, Is there something on your heart that you would like to share? I think language is really important. You know, where does it hurt? You know, instead of asking somebody what's wrong, it's quite often if I call you after I'm depressed, you may say, what's wrong. So now being depressed is wrong. So there's a moral judgment attached to my condition. So we have to find more compassionate, empathetic ways to express ourselves. And we talk to our kids, you know, and then introduce them to literature, you know, not this in my book, but just let them know that they are there are resources out there that they can use to facilitate dialog, you know, and maybe they might want to consider having a support group once a month for other kids, you know, inviting people over. They give us some food and sit out for an hour and you just talk, you know, How are you feeling today in school? What's going on? All right. In the second part of your question, I'm sorry. So what can if I'm an adult man as far as listening to this podcast and says, you know what, maybe it's time for me to to do something about how I've been feeling, What could be a first step, non-threatening step that they could take? Well, I think they can pick up the phone and tell someone that they love and care about. I need someone to talk to. You have any suggestions? You know, they can go online and listen to your podcast. I would recommend your podcast, you know. Thank you. I would, you know, and there's so many other podcasts out there where people are talking about mental health. So and that's something you can do. You don't need a job to talk if you have a telephone, right? Most of us have cell phones. We have access to the media, you know, think of social media. So you can do that. You know, you can go online, check out someone's website. You know, like my website, for example, there's this conversation is documentary, there's an interview podcast. It's music, it's poetry. So, yeah, just be able to tell someone I need someone to talk to. If you can get that out, especially if it's the truth and a lot of time it is. I You may not want to talk to somebody, but you know, you need to you tell somebody that can be that can open a window. Yeah. And of course, my biases is towards therapy. But I will fully acknowledge what you said before, that it's not accessible for everybody, unfortunately. But I really like the idea of men having strong male relationships in their life where, you know, they can they can watch sports together. They can, you know, go for coffee, but they can also talk stuff when stuff is really wrong. I think that that is is significantly lacking with males. And you guys correct me if I'm wrong, but that's been my observation is, you know, true to strong male friendships is really lacking in a lot of lives. Like deep and deep, emotionally connected. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we talk about surface stuff, which is not bad. A long time ago. Yeah. And again, it may just take one person who's vulnerable a say. You know what? I'm really hurting right now. I feel really sad, I feel really depressed, I feel whatever I feel. And then trying to have that conversation and that could take years. Yeah. So, Malini and I spend a lot of time talking about like helping, like, encourage parents to not feel helpless in the face of everything around them, particularly social media, where they say, I'm only one person. So if you had it, let's say a parent of a young man or an adolescent male, and, you know, they're saying, what can I do? The social media out there, there's peers, there's influencers. I'm just one person. How can I help my son have a healthier perspective that you're talking about and they just feel like they've given up. What would you say to that parent? Well, to not give up and maybe to access some support for themselves, maybe they need to pick up the phone, call someone, and one it's up to maybe I can start a support group with, you know, the women in my neighborhood, woman my building, the woman, my job. And we can get together once a month and have a conversation for an hour about what's going on with our kids. You know, you don't necessarily have to go see a professor do that. So I really believe in self advocacy, you know, And it doesn't require money or travel or insurance. It's hard. It's sometimes just being creative and imaginative and just being forthright and just, you know, I need someone to talk to. Can can you come over? Can we sit down? Can we have conversation, you know, have a support group once a month for an hour, we get ten parents some I bring some food and just talk a lot. You know, parents know how to talk and they have a lot to talk about. It's and they need a place where they can talk freely without the work, the school, the kids, just amongst parents, their peer group. Any parent could do that. Right. And you even have to get on social media. You just pick up the phone, call your girlfriend, come over on Saturday, 6:00, I'll cook right over with. I'll sit down and we start talking and that's it. Yeah. And Ari and I have talked about that in other contexts before, too, like finding like minded parents who are maybe struggling with some of the same things. We'd be amazed at the support we can get for one another. Yeah, I mean, I think people are aching. People have a need to belong, right? And people have a need to feel safe, to feel appreciated. And those needs can be cultivated by someone with the courage and the foresight to say, Let's connect. Right, let's connect, come over, it's safe or just be us. While we recorded, you know, with watching. You know what I mean? It'll just be us and, you know, and you don't have to get dressed up, you know what I mean? Come on, your PJs or whatever, you know, your hair could be messed up. We don't care if you're teasing out of your mouth. We don't care. Just come over. We're going to cook, we're going to eat, we're going to talk. And that's what we're going to do. And we'll see what happens. Any parent can. Because this is again, it's going to maybe be an oversimplification, but I hope not. Okay. If I dichotomies are between and I see this to be the problem. And in reality, I've talked about this a number of times in younger society today. So if you took anybody who has any of the clear societal disadvantages that you know and Malini are clear, we're not black and white, so we're not denying that they exist. So let's say a child has two or three big strikes against them. They're an adult, a young adult adolescent, but they've had clear strikes, they've had a hard life. And they say to you, or they have that mindset of the mountain's too big. I didn't put it there. Like I said, it's there. I can't climb it. Why would you expect me to climb it? Okay. And then they look at all the other people around them who aren't the mountain either. So someone is in that mindset of, just as you say, you're into self advocacy. How do you encourage someone who feels that they don't have that self agency? How do you get them on that other side of the page? Well, you introduce them to organizations, institutions, resources that are available to them, but I want you to name them March. They talk about mentorship, right? I've been admitted to young black male for 21 years and this kid had a horrific story. But we connected and after three weeks we were on the phone. We were going to McDonald's was on of the game and eventually began to open up and talk about his hurt, his parents trauma. And we cover that release about a 21 year period. I met him through a community based organization. I didn't know what's going to happen, but because someone suggested that I go, this organization's called us, let's go up in New York and they have our mentoring. It's one in four black and brown kids 1018, and their parent or guardian has a ten a month and support group and they get peer with a mentor tutor and you develop a relationship. Sometimes they laugh, sometimes they don't. But this individual who was so lost and broken, just like myself, I can identify, I have compassion, have empathy. We were able to talk. I was able to hear and feel and be there, represent me. I would apologize. Right. It's a success story, you know? That's amazing. Yeah. But, you know, sometimes, again, it's the access. Not everyone has access to information, and sometimes information is not culturally progressive. So there's so many layers and battles that you have to go through. But, you know, if you stick with somebody long enough and you're resilient and you're persistent and you're determined, your love and your time, you know, you can really help anyone to be the best version of themselves. And that word resilience, I think, is really important to emphasize here that, you know, having resilience in oneself and helping to foster that within other people I think goes a long way. Yeah, Yeah. And I mean everyone serious trouble, you know, some more than others but it's important that people learn resilience and slow trauma, that they learn that they can cope, they can heal, they can overcome, but they need that space where people are to assist them in their journey. However that takes place. And I want to be that person. Yeah. So Mark, thank you for the work that you do. Like you said, you're one person, but you're spreading a message that's incredibly important and you know, I'm sure it's catching on and again. It's such, such an important thing that more men need to to focus on and be comfortable with because it's part of being human, right? It's not about being a male or a female or whatever it is. It's about being human and being understanding of those emotions. So thank you for the work that you do and for being with us today. You're welcome. Thank you. What's going to happen? I'm going to be able to. Write and and I really appreciate this one thing that, you know, again, I always promote this idea that more than one thing can be true at once. So while on the one hand, it would be silly to pretend that, you know, certain people, certain backgrounds, certain groups, certain whatever, don't have either other advantages or disadvantages, hardships, perspectives or whatever that are different from others. At the same time, we can say there are some common factors, some common features of what you've been describing, connecting on an emotional level, meeting somebody where they are, not, where you're trying to impose what you're trying to impose on them, but having that empathy and compassion, hearing them out, giving them resources. There's universals underneath all the mean, all the differences. And that's what we what can unite us is, you know, connecting on those universal levels while also recognizing that my experience, my background, my perspective, whatever might be different from yours, but that shouldn't prevent us from connecting on these other levels. And I you know, I think that message is resonating and I think it's really important and it sounds like that's part of a big part of what you do connect on that human level, as you said. Yeah, and I agree with you, because mental health transcends age, culture, faith, gender, income, orientation. You know, everyone has mental health, right? Our emotional, psychological, social well-being, the way we think and feel, how we deal with stress, the choices we make, we all deal with mental health is this now it's actually being expressed. It's being articulated. People are talking about it. And, you know, let's hope. What's that? Right. So you have to get past that. What's that? And then you have a conversation like we have now, that people go, that's a real it's real. 20 years ago, we were not talking about mental health the way we are now, right? So we have made some progress. But again, we've been in this country for how long? Know there's so much unlearning and relearning and this is all part of the journey. Mental health is a journey. It's not a destination. It's money. No championship trophy, no gold medal, no walk up. It's a journey. And that's what I've learned to experience, is the journey. I have days when I don't want to get out of bed. I don't want to talk to nobody. I don't want to check my email, right? And then I have a day like today where I get to talk to you. So everything is different, right? This is all about Dana. Watch. What a difference a day makes. I'm not going to sangwan You know that's not right. But what a difference a day makes. Yeah, so today's a new day. It's make it the best day. Excellent. Amazing. You know what? And mainly because normally I sign off with I say, keep your eyes on the road in your hands upon the wheel. I was trying to think, How do I turn that into ease on down the road, you know, and keep your keep your hands on the wheel while you ease on down. Ease on down that road. So keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel with good spirit, with you know, with love in your heart, compassion and just with the was the commitment to doing right by others. And I think that you're really embodying that, Mark. And I really appreciate you coming on and you spreading that message. So thank. You. That's what I prayed for. Every day I ask God to help me to be in service to another human being. That's my intention. Right on. Thank you so much, Mark. Thank you. Have a great day. All right. All right. You too.