Unpacking Critical Thinking: Can Questions Change the World?

you hear these stories about Awakenings or I wouldn't characterize it as an awakening, you suddenly start to think differently and realize they had all these presuppositions which were way more complicated and that internally felt it was a very strange, strong feeling. It wasn't a bad feeling. It was got it. Was it it it exciting, it liberating feeling. Hello and welcome to Awake at the Wheel. So in today's episode, we are joined by Warren Smith. Warren has recently gained some notoriety online for a viral video regarding him guiding a student through some critical thinking activities and exercises. This notoriety has reached quite far. He's been discussed by Candace Owens on her podcast, Brett Cooper. Elon Musk retweeted. And there is also a recent interview with Piers Morgan, among many others. So we're thrilled to have Warren here today to discuss one of our favorite topics, which is critical thinking. So welcome. Warren. Yes, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Yes. So I want to discuss first before we jump in to the video and probably something you've been talking about a lot is this video. But we want to know a little bit more about you, your teaching career. What kind of got you to this point. So introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us what you'd like us to know about. Sure. I'm from North Carolina, and since I was a kid, I really wanted to make movies and go into filmmaking. So I went to an undergrad, I did film school to L.A. for a bit, and that eventually brought me to graduate school at Emerson College and I went to graduate school in the hope of becoming a teacher, thought the ultimate variation of that would be to be teaching filmmaking at the college level, which I do part time. I'm not a tenured professor at Emerson, and I teach a script to screen in a filmmaking course, one each semester. And I started teaching full time out right after graduate school at the high school level, and that has been really interesting. And that's where this video came from. Yeah. Okay. So that that to clarify, the video then, was you with a high school class? Yeah. Yeah. So approximately what grade are you teaching? I work with middle school and high school. Okay. And is it common for students of that age to kind of tap into that method of thinking and kind of following that line of thought? Or have you noticed maybe a change away from that? What are some things you've noticed surrounding that? I can only speak to what I've seen. So there might be teachers in other classrooms where I'm not witnessing that, that are actively discussing how to think. I know that for me it just came about because it is to me it is the most effective way of trying to navigate sensitive issues or really any issue when you're trying to come to the best conclusion for the long term for the sake of the long term. It wasn't a case necessarily where I was consciously engaging in critical thinking or the Socratic method, which is why I think critical thinking is so effective. It just it's within us if we just know how to tap into it. And when you are trying to navigate in the most efficient way possible, you'll notice that you start to fall into that pattern. It does help being able to recognize it when you are doing it and understanding aspects of it. So I do think it'd be a great thing to teach and I am actively trying to develop a framework which would allow me to articulate it to students in a way that a step by step method that when you're in a real conversation you can't be following, you don't have time to be following. But by practicing that beforehand, you start to internalize it. So that does become that instinctual thing we were talking about. Absolutely. And as therapists Oren and I use that method often with the clients and patients that we work with because like you said, it's about learning how to think and not what to think. And especially in our role as therapists, you know, it's hands off in terms of influencing what they think. So I love hearing that and I picked up on that pretty quickly when I was watching the video. I'm like, Hey, that's the method that we utilize as well. Yes. Now there's something about questions. There's a power in questions which is it when we watch a trial? Recently, trials have been becoming available online, like famously the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. But we see how when you evade a question it there's not it's not a good look if you so there is a power when you ask a question in order for the conversation to continue the question itself must be contended with in one form or another. Even if you do ignore it, it's still contending with it in that sense, whereas a statement can be ignored or disregarded. So absolutely. And I think that leads to, I guess, a thought in a question that I have and Oren I want to hear what you think about this, too. But I know in some interviews, Warren, people have asked you, like, what? What is it about this video that went viral? So when I think about that question, I have a couple of thoughts. I, I think that a lot of people or more people than we think want to think in this manner. But something has shifted a lot has shifted in our world where asking questions has become a bad thing. So I think that this perhaps at least in part caught on because people are like, Whoa, wait a minute, this is the way that I would like to conduct myself. And it's nice to see others behaving in that way. So I think that that's a big part of it. Or and I want to know what you think. And then, Warren, most importantly, a way to know why you think this caught on. All right. Yeah. So what I think is even people if you look online, they put quotation marks around just asking questions. They don't have the benefit. They don't give the benefit of the doubt. They don't believe that the person asking the questions is acting in good faith, is actually trying to arrive at either an an understanding or a resolution or a compromise or something like that. They just feel that it's a gotcha. I think that's a big part of why people aren't able to have that. But the bigger one, I believe, is everything that you were saying more about the thought process, right? That's tapping into the logical, the rational, and unfortunately, the logical rational will usually lose out to the emotional. And so when people are confronted with evidence that contradicts what they want to believe, if it makes them if they think that, my gosh, acknowledging this is going to make me look a certain way, they get overwhelmed. This cognitive dissonance kicks in and they just have such a hard time managing the emotional aspect of it that they start thinking irrationally, they start evading the question, they start going off on these different tangents that they start fighting back, they get defensive, and they're not able to have that honest, good faith discourse that you've demonstrated in not just that original video that went viral, but I see now, I think three other videos, maybe two different teachers and a lawyer, I believe, is what I see. I'm not sure if there's more, but that's what I've seen. And I see you really keeping them on track and I'm watching them. I mean, I'm hearing them. You don't show their faces, but I can imagine them. They're almost there trying to jump out of the guardrails that you're trying to keep them within and you keep them really well contained within that. So I think it's a great skill. It's not just the critical thinking, but you're guiding them and helping them kind of deal with the emotional stress that they're going through and arriving at some type of dialog because it is so easy that I see them. I don't think they're doing it intentionally, but I see it almost getting derailed. And you keep those guardrails intact. That's what I've been seeing. That's a good point. There's there's something about detaching it from a claim, treating it sort of an experiment that is being examined, which allows us to be a bit more objective. So it's not it's very difficult to say. This is what I think change my mind, which is a common format. We've seen some more it's more something along the lines of this is the least bad option I have been able to find to this point. Can you offer anything better? Let's contend with it. And then there is that aspect of following the logic. There. Perhaps that's one reason that the video resonated with logic. Objective logic can be followed. There's that thread you can see this step leads to this and this, and therefore a journey occurs which therefore becomes satisfying. In that sense, it's not. You're something different about it. But why did the Visit video resonate? It is a question I've been asked and I've been trying to. I do think there's also a component of a sense of when an accusation is made and there seems to be a lack of evidence that as far as to this point that has been presented would not justify it. There's a large and when you have a figure like J.K. Rowling, who is so public, that magnifies that accusation. And there's a sense of it's frustrating, I think, for a lot of people. And when they try and engage in the conversation, then they are attacked for it. So perhaps there is some catharsis through that video where they were kind of seeing something that they wish they they've tried to do themselves or they want to do it. Contending with that frustration. And there was something there with that. I think the. And when you say about something, when you see that of what they want to do, what they've tried to do, do you mean that they tried to do what you did, which was to be able to get someone to, to challenge their assumptions, their false beliefs, that was based on just things that they'd heard in the ether, so to speak, and to get them to actually go, wait a second. When I really look at the evidence, it doesn't support what I believed. Like, that's what so many people try to try to provide the evidence and say, you know, I'm not attacking you. I'm just saying that what you're saying doesn't jibe with the evidence in front of us. Right. And the person is not able to acknowledge that is the catharsis in getting the person to acknowledge it or the catharsis in doing the acknowledging and saying, wow, I was wrong. That's a good a good question. Yeah, maybe it's not the fact that they haven't been able to do it and it might be more the fact that it perhaps they themselves, based on the evidence, do not think it's a fair characterization and perhaps they have wrestled with it. I mean, I don't know. There is the the major put like had the student not acknowledged like gone back to the beginning and recognized that their characterization was given what was presented, the evidence was not supported. There wouldn't have been the it wouldn't have worked in the same way. Now, that wasn't designed or anything. It just was how it unfolded. But that's we should acknowledge that was definitely a major component of it. So with the way that it unfolded and like Oren mentioned earlier, this isn't the first time you've engaged in this, you know, line of questioning and teaching and so on, but it's the first one that's gained attention. But have you received criticism either for this particular video or for your method of teaching? Because I, I surmise it is quite different than many teachers do approach such things a bit. A bit, you know, initially because it happened on that Sunday. And then when I went into work on the following day, there was sort of I didn't say anything to anyone. I was just wasn't sure who had seen it, wasn't sure what to do. And it was it was looking back on it, it was kind of funny because obviously everyone did know and now the social dynamics. Why was that that eventually the principal said to me, he's like, Yeah, it's not going to work, not talking about it, because everybody has seen this. Like how so? There has been there were some teachers that definitely would have looked at that and said that I was guiding the student or I was taking a position or they disagree with the character. It comes down to the fact that you have a couple categories here, teachers that disagree with. They do think J.K. Rowling would be fairly categorized as transphobic, so therefore they disagree with the entire thought exercise will call it that. You have teachers that feel that the very act of though the video did not break any rules, there was no student on screen. It was all and I did have I did meet with the lawyers after this. And they were very supportive, actually. And I really respected their ability to be objective. So even though there were no formal rules broken for whatever reason, some now that might be coming from a place of when someone suddenly has a spotlight on them and you work with them every day, there's that sense of, Well, I do the same thing, why not me? What now? Moving outside of the school. There were there was some activity later on on X, then people started trying to tag Emerson College, where I teach as well over and over, because that's the only public thing that you can find for an employer, very intentionally so now. But it did not initially happen after that viral video because it was just a flash in the pan. We have to be honest about that. It was just luck and there was nothing to really contend with at that moment. But then after that, when I try and find my footing and then I do a further video and I had received many comments on that video saying a lot was swept under the rug. Here you should go watch ContraPoints video. And I responded, Can you be specific about anything that was swept under the rug rather than just redirecting me to a whole new YouTube video and no one could? So eventually I did watch the video and made that into a video as I was experimenting and trying to figure out, okay, I would be a fool not to try and do something with this opportunity. How am I going to do that? That video came out of that. Now, at that point then I did. That's when the activity and the posting of the employer and all of that over and over, that's when the whole mob thing started to appear. Three days, maybe four days passed and I realized I should just try and address this and contend with it. And that did seem to have a great effect. And I haven't really had any issues since then. Okay. Can you elaborate a bit on what the issues people were taking with your your work or your posts? There was the YouTube channel was very small. It still was very small. At that time it was very small. So there was a sudden influx of in a single day. It looked I didn't at the time I didn't it recognized that pattern as potentially what I do and I'm positive purchased subscribers. And I started researching because then after every video that would come out, there would be a dump in subscribers. The second after it was posted and in the analytics, I started noticing things that were this is very interesting, very strange. And then I research. Is this even possible? And I found people had similar situations where competitors or whatnot were purchasing subscribers, which you can do for little money. And there's actual code you can find right there on how to write it. So this is all becomes automated. You have to sit there and actually do this with a real person. It's just automated and go, but that's just a YouTube channel. Who cares? It's not as it was. The thing that was fascinating was the actual activity with Emerson. That was because that was revealing. It was it their their actions? It it said more. I couldn't articulate as well as their actions could articulate themselves. You know, it was it was. And I think it backfired in a way, because it didn't look good. And then when I did address it by making a video about it and actually showing some of this by retracting their names and everything, but actually using showing their words objectively out it, I noticed a big difference after that. Some people even just vanished, deleted their accounts and things. And yeah, it hasn't been an issue since. And I'm just not going to worry about the YouTube stuff, the algorithm, things like I don't it's, I don't think it's going to be an issue that things will open up. Okay. Now you brought up a couple of points. One is no pun intended because the contrapoints video, I know that you made the video you were commenting on contrapoints video, and you were you were trying to analyze I mean, I think your video was about 14, 15 minutes maybe that you did. I think the original one. And you afterwards, I don't think you apologized, but you did, I think, acknowledge that there were some limitations. And, you know, I say in your original video. So for that and that end of it or that part of it you want to elaborate on just because not everyone would know. So can you just sort of summarize what people took issue with, aside from the fact that you dared challenge the, you know, the the orthodoxy right here? But besides that, what was were there any valid criticism that you could say, you know, reflecting on it, because you did talk about some of them, This is what I would have done differently. And second, let's say how you feel that your approach, like in my column, how well it worked. Yeah, it wasn't so much that there were specific points people were addressing that I did wrong. It was it was more a since there was nothing really to contend with in that sense. They weren't making there was one. There was one section where I might have I think I might have made an error. I forget exactly the wording between characterization of and I said, J.K. Rowling is talking specifically about trans activists, not all trans people here. And they clicked that and I saw that appearing, but I'm not even sure that was actually an error. I would have to. But I just I do remember seeing that clip a lot. It was more a sense of I could of there was just I felt like there were there was so much attention on it, so much not attention, but potential People wanted it to be really good. And it could have been better. It could be because this contra points video or is 2 hours like multiple videos. I realized halfway through I thought I had the right video and then I had been trying to really break it down and address everything in a very thoughtful way. And this is going to be way too long. So then I my analysis ended up being very brief in comparison, I guess what was like 10 minutes, 15 minutes, something like that out of a two hour video. But it was more so it's not good to I try and be minimal, minimal force in all things. less said the best said. I said if you can accomplish the same same result with less, why not go with less? And that might demeanor was slightly different in that video. I felt like not that it's artificial, but I know there's just something I know. I just feel like I could I could have maybe done a better job overall with it. But did you feel that you had more of a bit of an attitude in doing it? Yes, I think I was a little bit of a smartass. Okay. Yeah. And the thing is, I mean, there was a bit of smart alecky or smartass, but the fact is, in that time, the things that you kind of point out where you were sort of pointing out control points, let's say almost a smoke and mirrors, where there is some valid point, there are some valid points in there, but then contrapoints, I don't know, sort of infuses the video with a whole bunch of other stuff that almost detracts from the weakness of the points being made or the fall of falsehoods being claimed. Yeah, you were pointing that out. And also, you know, the by the way, people criticize me. I do this as well. If they if I see something on X and they ask me, you know, certain question, I go, here, watch my video. You talked about this and you're like, I'm not going to go to this whole video to watch it, you know? But anyway, I thought it was more it wasn't a thorough debunking of Cartwright's video, but it was showing these are some of the tricks being employed. Except that's a good point. You know, it wasn't. And looking back on it, that's how I should have gone into it at the very beginning, because initially I went in thinking I could do a debunking video of every point, but that would have been foolish as well. It's also too much. It was more I realize that it was about trying to point out, well, for a lack of a better world will call them tactics or strategies that are often implemented where you do make something so big and broad with such flowery language and and guilt by association and suddenly you're talking about this person has nothing to do with J.K. Rowling, and it makes it so big that it's almost too difficult to even contend with. So therefore, we're going to make it specific and address very specific elements of it. The common thing that I kept noticing was by redefining the very sub, very the very core of the video transphobia redefining that, therefore you can eliminate the conversation from even taking place, which is a very common tactic we'll see in other spaces as well. I think that was the big takeaway from that one right. And you know, Malini and I've talked about this a number of times, the manipulation of language, again, calling someone who disagrees with you a Transphobe, for example, is supposed to shut down the conversation right away. And again, I think that's why, once again, the video with your student really resonated because you didn't allow that to happen. You said, let's take a look at that. Let's really dissect this and see whether these are the appropriate terms or allegations. And I think it really, really resonant that's lacking in so much of, you know, of these discussions. They're always so bombastic and everybody's trying to get you and make a point. They're not really listening to what people really heard. You you were listening and that's with your other videos as well. Again. And I see you're very thoughtful in those videos. You know, I'm watching you. You're calculating, you're thinking, you're trying like, you know, you're not just trying to dismiss what they're saying. You're saying, okay, what are you saying? How did that add to the conversation? Are we staying on track? Where do we go from here and so on? I think it really comes on the video. So I got to ask you, did you like these approaches? Did this come from something that you had done since your teenage years? Did you read certain rhetorical instruments or divisiveness? What like how did you get to this approach that you're demonstrating these videos? That's a good question. In graduate school at Emerson, I started that was when I would say that you hear these stories about Awakenings or I wouldn't characterize it as an awakening, you suddenly start to think differently and realize they had all these presuppositions which were way more complicated and that internally felt it was a very strange, strong feeling. It wasn't a bad feeling. It was got it. Was it it it exciting, it liberating feeling. And I started to explore more and they started to realize I disagreed with people around me, my the closest people in my life. And to when everyone around you disagrees, your family and your friends, your childhood friends, everyone. And yet you still see the logic in your your reasons for why you're thinking the way you're thinking. But if you attempt in the wrong way at all, you have to be very careful if you do address any of that because there's such emotional baggage that comes with it in connection with all of what they already think. And they're they're not used to anyone disagreeing, especially a family member or a close friend. And there's almost a shame. I can't believe you, are you this now? Does that mean that you...? And so I got it helped It allowed me to just I think subconsciously I just developed I came to peace with being comfortable with my reasons and I didn't need to disagree on everything. I didn't need to verbalize it unless there was a or very good reason which I could explain to myself. And then when I would do that, if I did see something that was worth talking about with time, I would have to do so in a very objective kind manner, which has which I think was the most effective way for me. And that has led me to what is now, I believe, the most effective way for me in this conversation. So it's it's so interesting. And Oren and I discuss this often amongst ourselves and on this podcast that that what you describe there, that's I think in large part the goal of higher education, right, is to have that awakening and have that moment of, okay, I can shift the way that I think I can look at things differently. But sadly that's not being promoted as often or in the same capacity that it was in the past. So for you, did it go beyond that as well? So like as far as your upbringing, your childhood, did you grow up in a very open minded household that facilitated you to be able to have that awakening? no. Like to this day my mom is terrified with me even going on podcasts. Honestly, I just don't talk to her about it. And every day, like when this all happened, the initial video I she doesn't really understand the internet in the same way that a lot of. Yeah. So she realized that it was big and anything that she was very worried about who if we don't talk like this person don't do and it's still like that my brother was initially that same way. He then, through his own experiences, really came to his own realizations. And now I would say he thinks in a similar manner as I do. And questions things. And so we have each other in that sense. But no, I wouldn't say it was no, no mind. I should say this my mom is the smartest, strongest person I've ever known. And it's amazing when the strongest, smartest person you've ever known still shows extreme emotional attachments. To an inability in order to engage in certain logical conversations because of everything else that's associated with it. And they just can't seem to get past that. So it's a strange I don't know what to make. Yeah. So I guess along that same line, do you fear that this will negatively impact your career? Do you believe that it's going to open more doors for you? It has the potential to open more doors. It has the potential to impact me career negatively. It depends on what I do. And so I do need to proceed with care. And the lawyers made that very clear as well. It's clear that you're like, This is great. Congratulations. I hope you don't make a misstep. Essentially, this is the take away. Now, I view it as I had a responsibility to try and with something remarkable like this happens and a door does open and I have an opportunity, I have a responsibility to myself and to those that I care about in my life and those that are to come in the future to make the most of whatever is given to me then. So it's not I don't think ambition is a bad thing. I don't I'm not ashamed to say, yes, this is an amazing opportunity. I'm going to run with it as far as I can. Yeah, I think you have a responsibility to do that. Yeah. So what do you think it is about you? Either your background, your psychology, your emotional functioning, that when given this opportunity and not just given the opportunities very quickly, seeing the potential costs that come with it, seeing people trying to tag Emerson and try to get you cancel, trying to get you fired. Right. Just because you dared engage in, you know, in wrong thought or wrong speak. Right. What do you think it is about you that makes you say, you know what, I'm going to embrace this opportunity and take a risk. And it just seems it just seems like it the it's the most sensible thing, applying critical thinking to it, looking at every angle, recognizing that there's no going back on certain things. I can't undo something and I don't regret it. I'm very thankful for it. It's awesome. Yeah, that's going to change things. And I could just step away completely and it would fade. It's not going to change that much. It's not like this is ruined anything, you know, people will forget it. Or I can. At one point I was thinking, Wow, I mean, the only way through is through all the way. And I either have to decide to fully commit to this and see what I can make out of this or step away. And there's not really going to be the middle ground. I mean, there could be a middle ground, but it could. It's so therefore, applying logical thinking, I just came to it. It just seems like the wisest course of action to me. And as I was just saying, I do believe strongly that you have a responsibility to do the most that you can with what is given and this is the course. This is how I'm doing that. Yeah, I don't know if there's anything special about it or not. It allows me to do it. I just I just see that as the the logical course of action. Okay, so there's logic, but there's also would you say that if you tied in to what what you sort of alluded to a couple of times, what would you say in your values, your value system is what makes you say, I'm going to follow this logical course of action rather than, you know, disregarding it? Yeah, most people think it's easier to be foolish than wise. It's often you're to be wise requires making the difficult decisions in case so most people are going to take the path of least resistance like water. Naturally. But I think there's value in being able to make the difficult decision for the long term. And I'm trying to think how to contend with the question that you're asking. It's the emotional aspect of it that there's usually the harder course of action is there's that saying we always hear that nothing worth doing is easy, it's easy. And so it's something along those lines. I'm not afraid of doing the hard thing because the goal means that much to me. So it overrides the difficulty of it's not been I've I've had to go on a journey to get to this point, you know, I mean, I'm so I'm 36 years old, so I've I've seen some day I've been through some things. And so that's made me who I am. The thing that's brought me to that realization, I could have easily not have arrived at that realization, had other things in life that I got in other ways, you know. So but here I am. So yeah. So what would be an ideal outcome? You said you're talking with the goal, the end goal of this, I guess. Is there an end goal, what, five years from now, let's say, would be an ideal outcome for all of this? I really love teaching and being able to share that with people online and I'm not able to do that in the classroom anymore after this. And there's some really remarkable things happening online. Peterson's You know, Jordan Peterson's university or whatnot. Now, I'm not saying that they would ever allow me to be part of that or that I'm even qualified. I'm not on that level, nothing like that, or like I can't contend with him in any way. But it is cool to have a goal. To be like that would be really cool to go to do something like that. So I don't know. I'm just trying to make my say, but if I could snap my fingers, it would be doing something with them in that space daily Wire What they're doing, like I was talking about being a filmmaker, I still am. I'm still trying, but I will always do that. I'm always writing and creating while working with the camera and with The Daily Wire. I've never seen anyone go up against Hollywood before, and that's what they're doing. And it's pretty remarkable. So if I could see if you could be like, you can go work with anyone, I would want to be part of that. But very cool. Yeah. All right. And so I'm going to bounce around with these questions. So I've got so many questions to ask. So I guess one question, then I got about two totally different questions. I'll just go with one. And to start, I've been teaching for many, many years, decades at the university level. I've taught at different levels as well. So I've watched and as as therapists. Malini and I have watched. We have a lot of young people coming in and so we've seen changes not just in the people that we talk with, but in what they're describing as their environment, especially the academic environment. So over the last number of years that you've been teaching, have you seen a gradual shift? Have you seen a radical shift in the sense that, again, it's no longer about very rarely is it about critical thinking, it's about what you're not allowed to say. It's about make sure you don't offend people and so on. So on the high school level, what have you what has been your experience? That's a good question. Having a foot in both world college level and high school level, I would say college level higher education is more concerning for me. That's where we see. We see we seem to see more extreme positions being taken at things that you're not allowed to say. And was it gradual? I mean, I showed up at graduate school in 2016 and that was the year the election. A lot of things started changing. Discourse changed greatly, but I think the foundation was in place and that just kind of lit it just it caused it to move faster now. But I had never seen anything like that before that because I had been I had undergrad. I never thought I didn't notice any of this in undergrad, graduating in 2013. So now are a few years later and it was shocking. So I can't say if it was gradual because it just was full on at that point when I that's what it was really something to contend with for me. Yeah, it was surprising. It's troubling. Some say it's a bubble and I think there's validity to that, a bubble that will burst. I don't the tuition prices increasing. And you could argue that the value of the product is decreasing. It's remarkable how that it's one of the only areas in life where we see that. Yeah. So it's the hope that answers the question. Well, I'm just going to follow up on that. So you're not seeing it that much really in the high school. You're not seeing the stark, you know, pattern that we've seen. I have. So I was teaching a journalism class my first year. I didn't have a student. I just was the the lead player on the female lacrosse team. And she was very concerned because she had a good friend injured it during a recent game and wanted to write in the journalism class to an article about that. Now, this student, I just this is just an example that stands out in my mind because she was trying to go around and get some teachers perspectives. It couldn't get a single adult to comment. So there was that sense of fear, and I'm not sure it's comparable to the higher ed level. There's not the same political agenda as in higher ed where you it's everywhere in higher ed plastered on the walls. There's a department devoted to it. It's not the same. But when I say injured was, I'm just curious that made it so controversial. Was the person injured by a trans. sorry. I'm sorry. Yes. I didn't give the the full context. Yes. A game where there was. Yeah, I think a biological male playing on the girls lacrosse. Gotcha. That makes sense. Right. But that's a key component. Right? Very little to talk about burying the lead. So. Yes. Okay. And then the second question totally again, this different path, which is one of the videos that you were watching and I commented on on X, where it was what another teacher and you were doing the what's it called, the thought experiment. See if you could build a wall that would keep out or that prevent child trafficking and federal or state or drug, you know, being written into the country. You know, just watching it. I was pretty astounded. And I was watching you. You were incredulous at time. But again, you were civil. You kept the things on track. So I got to ask you this. You know, if you can in your answer, maybe give some context to that so people can understand what to you was either the most satisfying or gratifying. If there was anything about that particular conversation. we were talking about how logic there's a thread that can be followed in that video, it was very clear you could see the other person did a good job. This was a teacher that was he did it and I was thankful for his willingness to engage in it. And those were his honest views and his honest responses, as you can tell watching it, that you could clearly track his points. I got exactly. You can understand what he's saying. Doesn't mean that it's still a bit mind boggling for me when you say so. If you could stop trafficking of children across the border, the flow of drugs, all you have to do is press this button, which will that execute? The building of this structure will take out the word wall, the structures. Would you do it? No, really, that's something to contend with. So there is a fast and I but what's interesting is that you would get that response more often than you would think. And that's what's interesting to me about it. And then like you said, going sticking on it, don't let them veer. Don't stay objective like focused on the experiment at hand so that you can contend with what they're actually saying. Right. And that's where you start making what was interesting to follow about it is that it's a his points illustrate the same rationales that are rationale that that will be used on other thought experiments or points. Or would you vote for Trump if it if it meant in being a war. Many people, my mom included, says no, never even wow, wow. So it was sort of a framework for that philosophy. There's two different philosophies on either end of this political spectrum. It's good to be able to recognize both and apply both where necessary, strive for something in the middle. It's really good to be able to understand them. And that was great exercise for being able to understand that thought process. Right? Sorry value at that. It was also a great example of and no offense to this person, I mean, he seemed to be engaging in good faith with you, but showing how powerful ideology can be, how someone's logic can go out the window. And now we know with I or with Gemini or something like that. So feel I forget the exact statement, but it was something like would ever be okay to misgender somebody if doing so. I think it was like to save the population or to stop a war or something like that. And I based on, you know, the biases of the people programing, saying, no, never. I mean, it just shows you that's the strength of ideology and that's what's ruining discourse that people it's like a religion they can't you cannot, you know, commit heresy. Yeah. And right after the camera stopped, really, I just today I an hour ago before this interview posted the conclusion of that conversation. If you do want to check it out, it's kind of interesting because he does end up really it's kind of interesting. But after we start cameras off, I said, don't feel stupid because I understand you don't want to. Here's his essential theme, what the central idea is. He didn't want to spread suffering anywhere else in the world where he essentially it came down to he didn't want to spread our problems on any impose our problems on us. And that's a noble sentiment. So you're not a bad person. That's not a bad thing to have that sentiment I've read. And I and I applaud the the nobility of it. But critical thinking is about, again, you're going to that the difficult decision for the sake of the long term, what's the least bad option? Right. And I said to him, I see it because I talked to him after about Churchill. I said, Just imagine being Winston during Dunkirk. And he had to make that call for an entire battalion to draw fire away and sacrifice themselves Like there's there's hard decisions in the world, too. So. So this was an exercise just in thinking along those lines. It's a terrible thing, but that critical thinking. Yeah. And it leads into something that we often talk about, which is good intentions executed poorly. And I do really believe that many of these people, you know, whether it's in a thought experiment or in real life, they do have good intentions. They do, you know, want to do the kind thing, but in doing so, are not thinking broadly enough and aren't thinking about, you know, what is the least bad outcome. And it's just it's it's really tricky. And I think that there's so many different layers to it. But I just want to throw that piece in there because I do think that it initially is well-intentioned. I agree, Yeah. With my friends and my friends and family are not bad people. I understand. Yeah. And I used to think that same way. And undergrad. So we all want I think, well, most of us want a better world. We just disagree on how to get there. But it comes down to the emotional attachment to, yes, that wall is associated to something else that I will never, ever, ever, and no matter what the rationale. So there the emotional attachment overrides logic. Right? And I said this maybe six or seven years ago in one of my interviews, I was saying that because almost I think, why do people get so defensive? Why do they become irrational? And I say because it's no longer the it's become in the last number of years. It's not that I'm arguing or trying to defend a point. The point is me. It's the people have become so emotionally associated and personally associated with you again, that that ideology, let's say, or that camp or that identity. Yeah that right so again to to give up a point would be basically to sacrifice myself to become a martyr to like and actually murder would be the wrong word. But it's just yeah, I'm cutting off a body part if I'm to give up a certain point. And that's what people have such a hard time. That's what critical thinking is about. And you said it. It's there's no ideal answer. It's the least bad option. And I mean, I've said this I think the last few podcasts, I don't know if Scott Adams of Gilbert fame, he's talked about this a number of times, but I think it's so appropriate he talks about the difference between systems and goals. And you kind of summarized it and this is not a political statement here, but people he does it that the left are about goals like, let's say, eradicating poverty. Okay. But the right or the conservative is about systems, which is how do we do that? Right? You can have ideal, but we need a logical, effective, yet practical way to achieve it. Yeah, and that's what we see in these discussions here. Is such a lazy ideal because of course you're against poverty, right? So, so there's something interesting in a claim because if, if one person, if you're, if a coworker at work who you really don't trust and they backstage, if they make a claim, you're contending with the claim through the lens of that person and all that comes along with them, and then your best friend or a family member who you do trust makes the exact same claim. That claim now takes on a different meaning, which is why the whole format of this is my position on this change my mind, which Steven Crowder made famous it, and then you got it on the slogan in the book or it's different saying this is the least bad option that I've been able to find. Can you offer anything else? Because contending with that now me You're right. I was going to say, do you think that there are steps that you know, we'll talk about students. They think that, you know, children are the future. So let's look at what young people can do to have an openness to that level of thinking. So I think that that's a big barrier. And I think we're all saying it without directly saying it, that that obviously is the ideal way of thinking. But there's a huge barrier getting in the way of people being open to doing so. What can perhaps young people do or parents do to encourage that way of thinking? I really don't think it's the kids that that are the problem. I think it's the adults. It's the kids are made of same stuff. We were our grandparents, my granddad, They were the World War two generation. Our brains are made up the same stuff. I'm sure there's been some some change over time that I'm not scientifically qualified, but it's the it's the circumstances. It's the adults who are allowing the conversations to either happen or not happen that will then ask the questions that provide the platform for the debate, to encourage the debate that allowed the office of whatever at the university, the allow anonymous bias reporting to occur that then validate those claims, which validates the way of thinking. I don't think that the blame lays in the kids, but then you see kids that are now they're so sensitive and they're leaning on certain aspects of therapy, perhaps in a different way than be most effective. But again, it's comes down to the adults. That's our role as the adults that we have to take the responsibility for it. And it's so easy just to point the finger and blame the kids. But that's the I wish I could answer that better. That's a common theme that I keep. I've been asked that. I think that's the best answer I can provide, is it's it's not the kids, rather it's us. And I think inadvertently you're seeing that you mentioned in high school, it's not quite the same as what you're seeing in higher education. So it seems like the kids innately do want to think openly, but now as they age and are exposed more to the world, that does change. Yeah, I've had kids ask great questions. Yeah, and they're baffled. I had a student ask me a high school senior, ask me what socialism was. I had a student the other day, didn't know World two was fought over, didn't know what it was about, you know, just nebulous. Well, yeah, well, and this is such a common refrain these days where they're saying instead of dealing with the basics, whether it's math, English, history, whatever, or science, we're looking at DEI, we're trying to, you know, we're promoting these harmful ideologies. But to the point that even raising certain topics, using certain words is violence and so on. So in your classroom, do you think that like I have to say this in my lectures at the university level where I'm saying hearing what I'm about to tell you, I say, look, you may disagree with it, you may not like it. It may cause some kind of emotional reaction, especially if you if you've had an experience that is directly related or, you know, somebody has been affected by these topics. I deal with human sexuality. So I deal with some of the worst topics you can imagine, you know, like sexual assault and like just terrible things. So but I have to and I have to because of this, even my bosses, I have to basically lay it out ahead of time and prepare students. And I'm telling them, look, you can make it through. You can handle this. I'm almost coaching them saying you're not going to like what you hear. So some of this, but you can do it where in the old days didn't have to do that. A few people might get offended, they might get upset, they might get triggered. But the vast majority were able to hear it and function nice again. Now, I have to preface it with all these caveats and so on. So in high school, are you doing that as well, or do you think that just bringing the topic in just like this, what we're talking about is the better approach or what are you allowed to do in your class? When we bring up sensitive topics. I just go for it. I don't I mean, I don't know. I hope I don't get in trouble for saying. But no, I, I'm fortunate to score. There's not a ridiculous amount of oversight in that sense. There are there is it is a publicly funded. So there are there are they do this thing where it's which is understandable bias they want to check for bias make sure that there's no bias, which is understandable. You know you should it's about what to think, not how to think. And that's a noble pursuit to say, try not to be biased and it's not even that intense. But so there is that effort. I don't I don't and I'm fortunate to be in a position where I if I may, if I'm at Emerson teaching, I still don't I haven't had anyone complain, you know, I understand absolutely what you're saying and why you have to do it. You're in a different position, you know, And it's it's unfortunate that because then that that prepares them to be a it's almost like, you know, it's giving them the masthead. But anyways, I feel for you. Okay. So you haven't seen that, have you? Haven't seen it. But I don't I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that I, that I have that I'm overly bogged down by it. It's not, you know, I've been fortunate in that sense. That's just the circumstance of where I am and how by the ability to have a little bit of freedom in what I do. That's Yeah. Okay. And now this might get you in more trouble with your colleagues. And if that's the case, we can edit this out. But now that the colleagues know what you do, they know what you're teaching, they know your goals and your in your approach. Are you getting some of them saying you forget YouTube and all that other stuff, but just as a teacher, you're not allowed to do that or you're inflicting damage on the students. Are you getting any of that feedback? None of them would they say, I've not to my face, they will sit. They'll do it behind my back and they'll talk about how I was wrong and all those ways that we listed. And it's because I have that close circle that I do trust that will tell me when it occurs and and it's when they're there. But I'm not. Then It does occur. But no, no one has come to me directly and said anything like that. But it's also because I've been very fortunate, the very top leadership, meaning like the legal business, to see that level. But that's not even really in the school. The real that we do make the budget decisions and know that they've given the that that objective blessing, which I really do and thankful for that saying well there was no rules broken as long as you're not biased, you did it in a well-meaning manner and it was well articulated. That was thoughtful. And you want to respect your freedom of speech outside the classroom as well. So we can't control what you do at home. But be careful. You don't make a misstep. Or so it's more indirect. It's more of that. Yes, I've noticed differences and there are some people that do, when they do get a bit of control, some more than others, they that feels like they're trying to just in the last few weeks maybe make things a bit more difficult or but maybe I think most of that's just coming from a place of ego and power. You know, it's not so much political disagreement as just workplace politics, but I've been very fortunate. If I was if I was full time at Emerson, I'm sure I would have protests. And he's already you know, I have a class starting at Emerson next week. It's so we'll see how it goes. Right. Okay. Which to to this point and I'm going to make a very obvious statement here, but Warren, you're very clearly intelligent, articulate, skilled, talented in your own right. But the fact that this became such a big issue is just crazy to me. We're talking about thinking, we're talking about learning. We're talking about using our brains and it's become this heavily politicized topic that that's just blown up. And it's it's crazy me. Just the fact that it went viral is crazy. Yeah, it's shouldn't have been anything that was I think it was even that's what Cooper said and I agree with her. She's like, it's it's sad that this is worthy of even going viral. That's the state that we're in. Well, she's right. But okay. And to that point, I've got to ask you then, you alluded to it earlier with your own experience. And I have many people, whether they're high school students, university students or professionals, 40, 50, 70 years old, where they're saying, and I want to ask you this question at the end, which is they say it feels like I'm the only one who could see that the emperor has no clothes. Okay. And but I'm terrified of saying a thing about that. So let's say to a young person or to an older person, if they're feeling that way, which is, again, credibly isolating. Right. And for some people, they actually I have had patients who actually question they go, wait, am I a racist? I thought, you know, or am I the bad person here? And so I didn't think I was I you know, they anyway, so they're struggling. So whether it's in the practical sense of having to deal with the world around them, who all seem to see the world differently or in internalize like, what's wrong with me? Am I seeing the world wrong? How would you advise someone to be able to deal with that if they are the one who sees, you know, the emperor is running stark naked? Understand the reason you understand the reason why if you are engaging in a conversation like this, it's not just the goal. The thing that's even more important than that is the reason. So J.K. Rowling, that example, the reason was perhaps this is not a fair characterization and that has a larger implications on other things beyond just this topic. And if you really understand that reason, it allows you that peace to be quiet. When you're in be quiet in the sense of knowing when to pick your battles. Because because you you understand it allows you the confidence to understand why you feel like the emperor has no clothes. And wow, how am I the only one who sees this? Is it could it? There's got to be something wrong with me. If there's no way, then you start questioning that. Think through it deeply. Really think through it deeply past it. Using what we're talking about these conversations and tested again and again when you can in a way that and if it if the result is logical and you still see the emperor has no clothes chances are emperor has no clothes and that's okay and you understand it in the world will catch up. Can that be lonely, though? Yes. Understanding it and hoping the world can see you. Yeah, but doing the right thing is not easy. Yeah. Okay. And so that goes back to one of the questions I asked earlier about the values. So you would say that one of your values is doing the right thing, not taking these that's. Trying to do the right thing, willing to be alone. Who willing to do that and be a but I'm okay on my own. I've always in high school I was that kind of guy. Like, you know, the filmmaking. Do you like. Yeah, it's just I've been comfortable with myself and that I shouldn't say that because that's taken me a while to get to. But being I've never been the I'm an introvert and and get yeah, I don't need to I'm not always the party guy going yeah I like being out. Yeah. It's just that's just I would say it's more that, that I'm comfortable if I believe the reason and if I really think if I really thought it through, then I'm willing to do it. It's just. Okay. So kind of put you on the spot then. Okay. Because it seems like what you're saying is that the fear of the consequence didn't stop you. You didn't know what could happen even if making these videos, right? Like as far as like what people think of you were being isolated or something, that's that's not enough. So can I ask you, is there a particular consequence where you say, you know what, if I knew ahead of time this would happen, I wouldn't be willing to put my neck out there? Well, I didn't know that that video was good. I thought it might get 100 views, So it's not like by upload, which is the thing that started all this. So when I did upload that, it wasn't as though I was voluntarily setting out into this, you know, I mean, so that's now. But after it did, then I was faced with that quandary that this of do I lean in or fall back and a yeah I balance and it's just did it's such a remarkable opportunity that I am willing to take those chances and it might, I might, it might go badly. I would have as far as essentially that thought experiment you're proposing, I would it would have to be something along the lines of me. What would the consequence be? I would I guess I would need to be more specific. There's nothing yet that would make me feel that way. It could happen, but no, there's I would rather it's just too remarkable. There's too much it feels too unique. It's just too crazy. This whole thing is just so ridiculous. This I would regret it for the rest of my life if I did not take trying to do absolutely everything I can with it, regardless of the consequences. Okay So and that's important. Again, when whenever I do these topics, it's like we're trying to help other people see that they are these different perspectives or these different things that might motivate them to do something different, get out of their comfort zone. So you're saying that almost the fear of regret is what compels you? You want to have that regret? Yes. That's one of the worst fear. I more afraid. Piers Morgan interview presenting itself the day after I work, got back to work and I had to make the decision, do I do this? And if I do so, I'm not going to say anything to anyone because the principal may ask me not to do it. And and so I'm in that position. I know which way I'm going to go. I'm going to do it, you know, because I don't want to. So I didn't put the principle in that position. I just went and did it and then took the flak for it after. And it was okay. If you have logic on your side, things seem to work out mature, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'll just end with that. Don't. And I love that answer. That was kind of what I was getting from all of that is be measured, but also be willing to take risk in doing so. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I feel like we could talk for 4 hours with you, Warren, but I know that you're a busy guy and we've been going for about an hour now, but are there any last thoughts, anything? We haven't touched on that this was like it was great. I think we really now this has been really interesting. I really. Yeah. I'm an admirer of your work. Thank you so much for your time. And if you ever want to talk again, let me know. Keep it up. Yes. There. I really appreciate your time. Thank you. And we truly appreciate having you on as well. And as a fellow critical thinker. And I'll speak for or into like this is just been wonderful. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. And again, I really do hope people will see you're an ordinary guy. You don't have F-you money. Right? Right. I don't know. A teacher at my school. You definitely don't have ever. You want to. Get me something about you? There's something about your values. There's something about your goals that are, again, allowing you to do something that could have some huge positive impacts. It's getting the conversations going. It's getting people see, this is possible. It's just bring us back to a time where we could have these discussions. I don't even like the word debate. I prefer discussion where, you know, we're not trying to win somebody over. We're just trying to express our opinions. We can disagree. We can find out where we differ, see if there's room for modification of our perceptions and so on. And I just I just love that. And I really think that it's again, that one video has just inspires so much conversation and it came from such an innocuous place, a classroom. Right. So I am so grateful for you having done video before, for you picking up on that and continuing and really trying to promote this critical thinking and, you know, and civil discourse. Right. And see for coming on. So thank you. thank you so much. That's very kind. I really appreciate it. Appreciate it. Thank you. Okay. So until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel.