Malini
Hello and welcome to episode two of Awake at the Wheel So Oren today we’re going to talk about diversity, equity and inclusion. So DEI for short. Think I’ll shorten it up as we talk about it. This is a topic that's incredibly important to me, but I also think that it's something that's been, again, weaponized and turned into something that it shouldn't be. So diversity equity inclusion is something that's been implemented into different organizations, into schools.
And simply put, I think the goal is to ensure that people from different walks of life are getting the opportunities that they're entitled to and deserve, and that there's a level playing field for people who have different abilities and so on. So in theory it's a really great thing. But I mentioned that it's being weaponized and I think utilized incorrectly, sometimes.
So one of the problems that I find with diversity, equity and inclusion is the challenge with white people being excluded from the conversation. So I find that, you know, I'm involved with a lot of different community organizations and provide my thoughts in terms of DEI and within that capacity, because I'm a person of color, I have a disability, I’m a woman and I have a biracial child.
The list goes on as far as different diversities that I bring to the table. But folks like you, you're you're a white guy. What what do you bring to the table that diverse?

Oren
Well, I was just playing on sitting here and setting the F up because I am a white man, so I shouldn't be saying anything. But really, as far as diversity, it's diversity of thought, diversity of experience, diversity of perspective. And so you know, my my own background is very different from most other peoples and has nothing to do with the color of my skin or anything else like that.
And so I think that excluding voices, excluding any voices, is wrong. And I understand that in certain contexts, in many contexts, if I walk into a job interview, I am going to be seen differently than somebody else who will look different from from me. So I understand all that. But again, to completely preclude me from having any voice or any white male from being able to speak and to bring their perspective to the table is doing a disservice to any, you know, organization or society.

Malini
Absolutely.
And it's counter to the whole point of DEI initiatives. You know, we want as many voices at the table and as many perspectives as possible. And excluding anybody is counter. So I think this is a really challenging and touchy subject because by no means do I want to imply that there's, you know, that racism isn't a thing or sexism isn't a thing.
Of course it is. It's historically been a problem and it is a problem. But all too often in the name of these initiatives, I think that perhaps we as a society are focusing on the wrong things or focusing on things too minutely. So to give some background as far as where I'm coming from with all of this, I've had a number of obstacles that I've had to overcome in my life.
Mainly those come from my visual impairment, but at sometimes it's been race related as well. I will say though, that I've been fortunate to not experience a ton of racism throughout my life, but just yesterday actually, I was reading Wes Hall's book and he was talking about a situation where he was pulled over by the police and he was talking about how essentially it was it was racism.
And I sat back and I thought, I wonder where he's going with this? Because I think sometimes and not saying in this particular situation, but sometimes people will boil things down to race and maybe it's not about race. So he described the situation that happened. He described, you know, kind of a play by play. But the officer said what he was asked to do and he ended this story with.
But I knew it was racist. And he says, you know, if you've experienced racism, you know what racism feels like. And that really changed my perspective of his story, because I think all too often I think people are boiling everything down to racism when maybe that's not the case. I bring this up because I think about the first time I experienced racism.
So I was nine years old and my dad and I were going out. We just got a new car. So it was a 1992 Pontiac Bonneville SSEI, a really nice car. My parents worked incredibly hard. They were entrepreneurs. Rewarded themselves with this nice car. So my dad and I went, We're driving down Jefferson Boulevard in Windsor, Ontario, and we're at a stoplight, and this person rolls down his window like, that's what's going on here.
Now, censor myself a bit here because the language as a nine year old and really as an adult too, is a little bit concerning. But he turned to my dad, stuck his head out his window and said, look at you and your f ing car. You people come to this country and you take all the f-ing jobs and just went on and on and on about my dad's car, his job, his I'm assuming, just perceived wealth.
And I just sat there and thought to myself, Wow, like, what is happening? I've never had never experienced anything like that before. So anyone who knows my dad would know that he didn't just sit there and take it. My dad has experienced a lot of racism moving to moving from India to Europe to Canada in the sixties and seventies.
He experienced it a lot, but apparently in the nineties it was happening as well. So he gave it back is as good as the guy gave it to him. And I learned a lot of words that day that I didn't know at the young age of nine. But my point is in the story is that is what I knew and when I learned what racism actually is.
And to this day, I don't find myself in situations where I've experienced racism, where I experience racism much. But that feeling still comes up. And when you know, you know, Right. So I just wanted to share that story. As far as the background of racism is certainly a thing. It doesn’t always boil down to racism, but somebody saying that they're experienced racism, experiencing racism, if they know, they know, you know, what it feels like.

Oren
Right, and, you know, in the first episode, we talked about critical thinking. And that's going to be a theme that cuts across all, all episodes. And, you know, part of that is nuance and not taking a black and white perspective. So a black and white perspective would be everything is racism, you know, even if it's truly not, you see it as racism.
And the other side of that would be, oh, come on, this is, you know, 2023. There isn't racism and so on. Right. And neither perspective is helpful and neither is accurate. So, you know, again, having compassion for somebody experience having empathy for an experience that's not your own and being able to say we're not that's not my experience.
And but I'm going to give credence to that person's experience and try to understand what it must be like to be in that person's shoes. Absolutely. That's empathy. That's how we grow as a society, number one. And by the number two, for people who are in that situation, if we say yes, there is racism and therefore a everyone is out to get you and B, you have no accountability because you know, because it's not it's never your fault.
What kind of a person, what kind of a culture or what kind of society are we creating if that's what we, you know, inculcate them with? So we have to be so careful about that. And that's, again, this is where critical thinking is so important. And so what I hear your story, I think I'm like, wow. And I'm trying to imagine nine year olds seeing all of this and I got to being empathetic, but I'm not going to break down and cry and go, Oh my God, it's poor woman or poor girl.
Right? Right. And, you know, and on the other hand, I'm not going to just ignore and deny and go, Wow, that's just a one off, right? Yeah. We want to incorporate these experiences, other people's experiences into our mentality, into our, you know, experience base and go, okay, this can help me. Even though I didn't experience it. I am fortunate to have heard the story and to know that this does happen.
And I'll add to that to just to kind of flip that into a different perspective. And certainly I can't speak for everybody, but I think all too often experiences like that then, you know, bring people to think everyone's out to get me, everyone's racist, everything boils down to race. So I think I was fortunate in that, you know, after my dad gave this person a lashing, we did talk a little bit about it and my family's not very feelings based, which is funny what I do for a living.

Malini
But that aside, I was able to understand that some people are like that, but all people aren't like that. And I think that's the important takeaway from it as well.

Oren
It is. And you know, that's interesting because when we talk about trauma, post-traumatic stress disorder, in many cases, it's not the incident itself that causes the post-traumatic reaction. It's the processing during and right afterward. Absolutely right. So in your case, if your parents had reacted a different way, who knows what kind of an impact that would have had on you.
Right. That they talked about it with you, processed it, and so you were able to keep a healthy perspective on what happened, I think is so important that, again, if someone just says, oh my God, victim and they assume that you must have been traumatized and this is the problem with DEI or any other type of approach that is too carelessly and broadly applied, it doesn't take into consideration the impact it can have on different people and recognizing not all people are going to perceive the same situation the same way.
Yeah.

Malini
And I'll I'll give another example now that's kind of on on the opposite side of what initiatives look like. So I'll give another little bit of background here about my visual impairment. So I have a genetic disorder called Stargardt’s disease. It's progressive. It started when I was about seven years old, so up until seven I had, I think what was perfect vision.
It developed slowly as the years went on and around the age of nine it started getting to the point where I was interfering with my schooling. I had to sit up front and I still couldn't really see. So I went to a number of different doctors and they couldn't figure out what it was, which wasn't uncommon. Back then because the technology didn't exist to detect it today.
So long story short, it wasn't until I was 20 that I had an official diagnosis. So, you know, for the majority of my life was spent trying to figure out how to advocate for myself, because I won't pretend that I knew how to do it. It's quite the learning curve. But in doing so and, you know, given what I do now for a living and I own two businesses, I've done quite well for myself.
The way that this backfires on me, I guess I'll say that sometimes people assume I'm not that blind.

Oren
Right.

Malini
So on the one hand, we're talking about how there's this overemphasis on DIY and overemphasis on, you know, let's, you know, give people opportunities and so on because they're, you know, brown, female, disabled, whatever the case may be. But then on the flip side of it, it's, you know, outside observers are determining who is or is not disabled enough or having enough difficulties.
So that's a huge problem with this, too.

Oren
It is. And, you know, with COVID, I've had to change my teaching. I do it all online and I record all my classes and I make them available to everybody. And afterward. So, you know, I always teach in class and look show up. Or if you don't show up, you're not getting my lecture. And you know that that's to your detriment.
And I know that some people have difficulties getting to take the class, whether it's because of physical impairments, whether it's because of a job or something like that. But you know what? That's life. I thought after doing this and hearing the feedback from some students who do have certain limitations for various reasons, it really made me think, you know what?
Okay, I know that maybe ten, 20, maybe 50% of students are just not going to show up because they're hung over, they're lazy or whatever. And so they're going to benefit from my generosity by giving them say, you know, they didn't say, you know what, you can have this this video of the recording. But you know what? Again, after hearing from so many people and I've heard this before, and now that we have the technology, it's it's easier.
I'm thinking I want to shift my approach to make it easier for people to, you know, to be able to to have these accommodations and to receive things that other people wouldn't necessarily have. And as you say, it's often invisible. I mean, for example, people would know I mean, I am without my glasses. I am essentially blind. But, you know, I have one only one kidney.
I had open heart surgery five years ago to the day, basically life saving surgery. I have a walking time bomb. I could just like that any at any moment. Basically, my doctor's still trying to keep me alive right now.

Malini
And arguably, functionally, that has more impact on you than perhaps it does on me. But people make assumptions about you and your abilities, right?

Oren
Yeah. You know, and then it goes back to perspective because I don't say oh poor, you know, woe is me or why don't people see my disability and so on. I only talk about it when either I'm explaining something like my memory loss at times or when I'm trying to show this to my patients. I'm trying to use this to model for them.
Yes, there are certain, you know, impediments that you're dealing with or disadvantages or injustices. And again, we can be empathetic. Yeah, but let's also not let this crush you. Let's somehow find some way to advocate for yourself, even if it's 2% something, right, so that you don't feel passive and hopeless. And unfortunately, in today's society, right. Too many people are getting the message that, nope, you're the victim and there's nothing you can do about it.
And once again, it's not black or white. Somebody could have had a very unfortunate or adverse experience. They could have been victimized. But that doesn't make them a victim.
Right? Right. And I think that leads to another controversial aspect of this, which is meritocracy.

Oren
Right.

Malini
So, you know, I think that a lot of schools are doing this. A lot of employers are doing this where they hire individuals or admit students strictly based on the fact that they, you know, meet this diverse quota. And the argument, at least the argument that I've heard for it, is that a lot of these individuals who these diverse communities don't have the same experiences or the same opportunities and so on and so forth, which yeah, that's certainly fair.
But to touch on a point that you made earlier, I think that a lot of the time ignore the power that overcoming adversity has and the power that overcoming such adversities give us in terms of developing skills, developing merit and being able to be the best despite the fact that one has a disability or disadvantage or whatever the case may be.

Oren
Right. And, you know, it's it's like my brother passed away last year. Unfortunately, around this time, you know, he was black and so, you know, in our neighborhood, there were there were two and then three black kids in the entire neighborhood, basically. So, you know, I saw how he was treated differently and so on. But in my family, he was my brother.
I think, first of all, colors, skin didn't mean anything. Right. So, you know, I was fortunate to have parents were very open minded hippies and so on and, you know. Yeah. And also, we gave my sisters gay all the people at my mom’s store, the men, they were all gay. And so for me, diversity was just it wasn't again, there wasn't any label.
It's just this is a person, it's like to be able to have that exposure. It's organically. Yeah, I'm blessed to have done that and that makes me less judgmental. It makes me more able to function at all freedom and do get along with any type of person. Because again, I see you as a person, right? Not labels that I don't have to work hard to overcome this or that, that can't be it lazy.
I have to recognize that knowing all of this still, you know, I just always much to learn a lot of empathy to be had. Right. But this type of exposure, this is the thing that worries me with DEI and all these other movements where there's more segregation today. Absolutely. Than ever before.

Malini
We're pointing out all the ways that people are different.

Oren
Exactly. And all the research shows that the best way to get people to, you know, to reduce bias, stigma or prejudice, etc., is to get them together in a health in a healthy environment and see the person for who they are, not for all the differences. We're doing the opposite.
It's a balance of acknowledging that there are differences and what can we do as a society to accommodate people. And again, level the playing field. I love that saying, because that's that's what's important in allowing people to be their best: level the playing field. But I want to touch on something that you said there as far as I have a question for you.
So you mentioned that, you know, diversity was just a normal thing for you. And, you know, you had a diverse range of people in your family, in your community and so on and so forth. So I'm going to ask you this as a white person, what do you think of people saying, I don't see color?

Oren
Yeah. I mean, first of all, it's you'd be lying to yourself. You don't see colors is What does that mean, though? That's a very idiosyncratic term. Because if someone says I don't see color, meaning that I try my best to judge somebody based on who they are and what they do, I agree with that. That's a great ideal.
But if you pretend that that doesn't somehow register either, you know, even unconsciously you're lying to yourself because evolution has designed us to to see that you got to have in-group outgroup biases and so on. You know, children have it from a young age. People say, oh, they only learn prejudice. Well, there's a difference between seeing a difference versus having prejudice.
Right? Seeing a difference does not make you necessarily prejudiced. So, again, it's important, but I see so many people who are in these different organizations who do take an overly broad approach, so important not to do that. And and it's it's done so clumsily with so and it always backfires. And one thing about that, because I don't want to forget if I don't say it, when people do look at someone who comes from a different background who's, you know, who's maybe had adversity somehow in today's world, if a person says, I came from that same background, I have the same color skin, I was in poverty and so on and so on, yet I was
able to do ABC and to, you know, to propel myself into a successful life, into a fulfilling life somehow people are going to crap all over that person. They're going to try to distort their words. They're going to think that by saying this somehow they're doing something wrong versus saying what an inspiration, what a model. Why can't we model these types of that?
Does it mean that everyone's going to be able to do what this person did? No. But the fact that it's possible, the possibilities and this is what I'm so concerned about, because we know, clinically speaking, that sense of futility, hopelessness, despair, that whole, you know, by definition leads to a very bad path. Yeah. Having a little bit of hope and I'm not saying unrealistic, obviously, blind faith, I'm saying a bit of hope.
And it's not just hope that somehow the planets are going to align, but the hope that if I do something, yes, I may have disadvantages to other people. Yeah, right. But you know, but if I do A, B and C, there's a chance it doesn't guarantee, but maybe I can better myself or put myself in a better position.
And that's what we're supposed to be encouraging people. And that's not what's being promoted.

Malini
And it's tricky, though, because I think that I'm often guilty of and I'm going to use the word privilege here, which maybe seems odd given the number of disadvantages that I've experienced. But I think my privilege does get into my head sometimes because I think I'm a person of color, I'm a woman, I'm blind. I'm like, I have three things going against me.
But if I can figure this out and I could, you know, do what I did with my life, what's going on with other people. But sometimes they fail to recognize that there is a great deal of, you know, the lottery of birth that comes in. I was fortunate to be born into the family that I was and have the opportunities that were given to me.
Who knows what would have happened, you know, given the same three sets of things that I'm dealing with here, if I was born into another family. So while I agree with what you're saying, I think it is also important for those who do overcome these things to recognize, well, you know what positive factors that I have working in my favor as well.

Oren
And that's the problem, though, is those positive factors where, as we should say, yes, let's look at those positive factors so that the person who was able to succeed does have empathy and doesn't say, well, I did it. So you can produce players of right. That's important to do not do that. But it's that when someone says here are some positive factors, for example, being raised by a two parent household, as soon as you say that suddenly instead of saying, okay, that is what helped this person.
Right. And we're not saying you must be raised that way, but a lot of people say how dare you say that? You know how many people don't have two parents? Are you saying that it's a man and woman? It's a better combination that, you know, men are women people in the last few decades have just been they seem so motivated to tear positive messages apart.
And you have to think you have to really step back again. There's compassion, there's empathy, there's a realistic perspective, but then there's overt negativity, hostility, and trying to tear down anybody who's trying to bring that to others. Again, if I am arrogant and if I am ignorant and I say, well, because you should be able to do it, tell me to shut the F up.
If, however, I present it in a compassionate way, say there is a pathway. And I'm not saying you're going to get there, but let's try to do this because maybe it'll help you somehow. Again, just to think that that's the wrong message is a distortion of everything we know.

Malini
Yeah, Yeah. And it's interesting that that reminds me of, you know, even within diverse communities, there is, you know, pointing fingers and judging of the abilities or, you know, how X, Y, and Z you are. And what comes to mind is within the black community. So I do a lot of volunteer work, and I absolutely love the volunteer work that I do, you know, with people with all different variations of sight loss.
I like it because I am able to impart some of my experiences on to others and, you know, share with them what I've been through. But I also learn an awful lot from individuals who are within the community as well. But one thing that I did learn that really took me back is that apparently I'm referred to as the super blind.
Like, Well, what does that mean? Is it because I'm like super blind? No, it's not. So there is a subset of individuals in the blind community who believe that folks like me who have overcome these adversities and achieved a lot careerwise, financially and are generally successful in those conventional ways are the exception and we the rest of us aren't like that.
So that's a really strange feeling to experience because I've worked incredibly hard, not to imply that others in the blind community haven’t, but it's almost like my hard work makes me an other. It's strange, really strange.

Oren
Yeah. And it's interesting because one thing wherever, whatever, whatever your background, whatever your disadvantages or anything like that, this idea of being othered or the other isolated, different from others, whether it's ADHD, whether it's addictions, whether it's the color of your skin, the fact is it doesn't matter if you can see it or not. The person feels it, as you said earlier, about, you know, when there's racism, you do it well, There's no greater feeling than knowing that I'm different from everybody else or feeling that Right.
And we see that I don't care how successful someone gets later in life. If they had that feeling early on in life and it was never processed properly, they carry it for the rest of their lives. That's a neurosis and insecurity, right? And so it's again, this is a common experience among so many people. So instead of saying, well, I am more of a victim because of this, or you don't get to see that because of this, what about looking at shared experiences and saying no?
Because that's all about compassion and empathy, True compassion, right. And if I could just see one other thing, which is it really does seem that a lot of people who push for these types of policies, again, in a clumsy manner. Yeah. And I think I have to make this caveat back and say one more time. I don't think anyone should infer from what we're saying that these are not good.

Malini
Oh, they’re so valuable.

Oren
There, valuable there. You know, again, trying to level the playing field as much as possible. So on. Right. All of that, you know, equality of opportunity. Don't expect equality of outcome. But, you know, we're trying for equality of opportunity, right? So, you know, if anyone tries to say that we're trying to speak against that, it's not. So, no, they are intentionally trying to distort what we have to say.
Right. But there seems to be people who really push this, who, like I said, I think, in a different podcast, which is they feel so disempowered, you know, whatever unfortunate experience they had, but they're bitter, they're resentful, they are upset at society. They're upset and jealous of anybody who's achieved something. And they try to keep everyone down who seems okay.
But then there's the flip side. The person who who has good intentions but doesn't recognize that what they're doing is so racist or sexist or something like that by saying, well, I as this person who is privileged, I am going to come into these poor people that have been poor by disadvantage, but, you know, these unfortunate people, and I am going to lead the way.
I'm going to be the great white hope or something like that. And it's I know it's a cliche, I know it's a stereotype, it’s a trope. But the fact is it's prevalent. Right. And you see that and you wonder like, well, obviously, they literally they do not see how they come across. Right. Right. And again, so we have to recognize what is driving people's actions, what is their intention, what is it motive, what is their background?
Because no matter what they say, if their actions and attitudes are not consistent with that, maybe we should step back and go, Is this a great person to be leading this, you know, this movement and this? Should they be in charge of DEI within this company and so on? In many cases, the answer is no. Yeah, yeah.

Malini
So I want to go back to the topic of meritocracy, because I think that, again, it's it's really important to level the playing field. But do you think that we're lowering standards in some respects as well, just for the sake of diversity and equity or at least the appearance thereof?

Oren
Right. I do think we are lowering standards sometimes and we don't do some of any service. Now, I'll say in the last few years I've heard several colleagues saying this, and I see this myself that I know COVID, I know online teaching and so on. But I'm telling you, even when we first started, the grades in my courses were always in a certain range.
I teach the same way, you know, and so on my last year or so, I've just seen a precipitous drop in the grades and I still seeing a lot of students get the high of the averages on. But there's there are far more people with grades that I've never seen before, and that's usually like one or two people would have this really low grade that was four or five six and I can't say this for certain, but I think it might be that, again, they were maybe allowed into the program without the proper abilities.
And so you're taking the spot away from someone who, you know, may have been able to use it better. And how discouraging is it to somebody who's been spending all this money all this time going into a program, whether it's education or so on, that they will not be able to succeed in? Right. And if you know, if we were more honest about it, maybe we could have found another way to help this person find a rewarding career, fulfilling life and so on.

Malini
And, you know, I won't get into details because I am actively litigating this situation that you're aware of. But there are organizations still to this day that don't get it right. So we have two extremes, right, where on the one hand we're just letting everybody in for the sake of diversity and equity. But then there's other organizations to this day that don't seem to understand that you can't have policies, procedures in place that exclude people who can't do it the way that they want it to be done right is still a problem.
Whether people believe it or see it or not.

Oren
Yeah, and it's ironic because I've had so many students and patients who they say I went into psychology or into academia or something like that where they say or social work where they say, shouldn't my limitations, you know, whether it can be whatever the case may be of a disability or something. Aren't we supposed to have accommodations? Isn't this the area that there should be?
And I've had so many people who've had to fight so hard. And in the work that we do, trying to help people get it's not an unfair advantage. It's just justice, it's fairness, it's equity. You know, and in these organizations where you'd expect it, it doesn't happen. And I'm talking right now, I've had so many students who they're hung over, they're tired, they have a bellyache, they've got no problem, you know, getting a letter from a doctor and getting the accommodations, no problem.
But the people who truly have some kind of issue, whether it's like, you know, a severe anxiety disorder or learning disability or physical impairment, the ones who really ill or trauma, the ones who really should be asking for the accommodations, they're usually the least likely to do it because they've had that experience of being othered, and it triggers a sense of shame.
And they say, you know, and I've had to tell you, I said, Look, I've written more letters of recommendation for graduate school than most instructors have. And I've seen some of the smartest, most capable, competent people and all they know and I've written a letter for them and I know their background and they're going to be successful when they are successful.
And all they needed was just a little bit of a leg up, just a bit of an accommodation. And I try to say it to other people. There's no shame in that. But a lot of people feel that shame.

Malini
And I did too. I mentioned earlier on that I didn't know how to advocate for myself. I didn't have the words to do it. I was ashamed to do it. Culturally speaking, I'll even say that it was something that I was not overtly, but I was encouraged to not talk about with people. So I was in a state of confusion for, you know, my adolescence as well.
I can't see and I can't function. But it's embarrassing if I talk about it. So what do I do? So, you know, having the strength and the ability to develop that skill over time and frankly, it came out of necessity in many cases because the discrimination that I experienced and in many different areas was it was untenable. It was something that I just had to figure out.
So. Right. Yeah, it's challenging.

Oren
Right? So that would be I mean, we've sort of given the answer, but a lot of people might ask, So what do we do with this? Right. And, you know, I think the magic word of today, the drinking game word today, is self advocacy, compassion, empathy, support. Right. So if you are in that situation where you are, you know, either discriminated against or have some disadvantage and so on, recognizing that, you know, crying, victimhood, it might work for you, maybe it will, but down the line, you're not going to be leading a very fulfilling life and you are still going to be carrying that shame.
And again, on the other side, for people who, you know, who think, well, the racism is over or there's no sexism, right. Realizing that they are still there, Sometimes they're obvious, sometimes they're not so much a little bit of compassion, a bit of empathy, a bit of support and guidance can go a really long way and everyone functions better When you know and when we help each other.

Malini
And again, simply put, listen to each other. Right. Always do is listen to one another and understand people's experiences, understand that lived experiences are different people with in the same experience, the same disability or whatever the case may be very differently. So I think listening goes a really long way.

Oren
Exactly. And and when we're racing to try to be the greatest victim or the greatest oppressed group or whatever else like that, we're going to crap all over someone who's not or, you know, you're, you're too light skinned so you're not, you know, brown enough or black enough and so on. When we do all this again, we're tearing each other apart rather than trying to help each other support each other.

Oren
So. Right. So on that note, maybe it's a good time to say until next episode, keep your eyes on the road, your hands upon the wheel.