The Andrew Tates of the world. You know, when they're selling their product. I don't think there is that nuance. No, no. Right. So the young men are basically hearing it's either, you know, totally feminization and, you know, being a cuck or being a simp. Yeah. Or it's be a real man! Black and white and black and white. Very rarely works well. Welcome to this rounds table edition of Awake at the Wheel. So today we're going to be discussing one of the most controversial people out there, Andrew Tate. So if you haven't heard of this person, there's a lot of content on the Internet where he is speaking predominantly to young men about how to be a man. Some people agree with it. Some people disagree with it. In our clinical practices, our clients have brought him up and aren't sure really what to make of him. So, Oren, what are some things that you've heard about Andrew Tate from your patients? Well, so many of the young male patients I have, it's almost like they look over their shoulders, make sure it's safe, and they say, Look, I don't agree with everything he says. I don't agree with his attitude necessarily, they say. But a lot of stuff he says makes sense. And they say, I can understand why so many young men would look to him as a role model. And it's tough because I think that young women and, you know, women in general look at him as a misogynist and frankly, just GROSS And I was unsure of what I really thought of the guy I know at Christmas time, actually, we had a discussion. I said, who is this Andrew Tate? Something something. And I'll leave out the description there. But he he has this this aura of arrogance to him. But in the spirit of critical thinking, which is something that you know, that I love doing, I've been listening to some of his things that he has to say. And although I'm not a huge fan of him as a human being, I think I'll agree that a lot of what he has to say has some merit and some value, especially when it comes to toughness and perseverance and things such as that, and just not being soft, I guess. Right. And knowing your worth, knowing your value. I think that's what he's really promoting if we take him in the most generous manner. But it's hard because, you know, I am reading the body language. I'm I'm reading between the lines. And there's something about it where I just see manipulation. I can't help but and I know some background story with some of the programs that he sold men. So I can't help but see the grifter behind all of this. So again, I hear the words. It's hard to, you know, to to hear hear them purely. And one of the challenges with social media in general is a lot of things are taken out of context. How some of the stuff that we've said has been taken out of context already. So that's a really important thing is for us to, you know, take what we're seeing with a grain of salt, because I've also listened to him speaking directly about, you know, what his goal is and what his message is. And it sounds like he's not trying to reach people. It sounds like he genuinely wants to help. I'm not sure if I'm convinced, but that seems to be the message he's trying to put out there. And I've seen that with so many people over the last number of years where this image of them is one thing, and then you hear them talk, you hear them elaborate on these talking points that other people have used to try to, you know, denigrate them. And you go, you know, it makes sense. And maybe I give them the benefit of the doubt. And it sounds like their motives may be, let's say, less dubious than than it seems at first. But with Andrew Tate, I just have such a hard time giving him the benefit of the doubt. But once again, A, I understand why men would gravitate toward him or his messages and B, as you said, there is some value to these messages. Know your worth, work hard, persevere, and don't let people take advantage of you. But I'm suspicious too, just as you are. So what do you think Some of the things that men are gravitating towards, specifically young men. So the broader is, you know, know your work, know your value. But what about the nuances of what he's saying? Why Why are men gravitating towards that. While they're gravitating toward it? Because there's been such a feminization of society, so many men and sadly, it's white men, because very rarely do you hear someone say blah, blah, blah men. They say white men. And the majority of people, at least in North America, are white men. So they're being, pardon the language, shit upon by all facets of society in the media, especially in school. And so they're A) they're seeing somebody stand up to that. He's not taking it. He's you know, he's leading the charge, so to speak, B) they see a man living on his own terms, living the, you know, the lavish life that's that's been the, you know, the selling point for so many decades. Right. You know, you can live the life like I like there was that guy for the Asian guy who used to be on the boat. And you say you can have all this. Yeah, right. Like it's always selling this dream. Yeah. And that's a big part of what Andrew's selling. But see, again, it's this idea that and this is the part I don't like, it's a real us versus them mentality that people are seeing men versus women rather than men working together with women, then navigating women just being able to have more harmony. But I see a lot of disharmony in that. Yeah. So I want to talk about two things there. First, I think need to clarify what you mean by the feminization of society, because I think that that could be taken the wrong way. And I want to talk about point C as well, where it's become an us versus them through messages like that. Whereas in reality, like we've spoken about before, it's not us versus them. It's it's human beings working together. So what do you mean by the feminization of society? Well, I'm going to be even more specific because I've had a number of patients who happen to also be psychology grad students, either undergrad or grad student, and they're calling it the feminization of psychology as well. So what what they mean and what I can see, what they mean is that. So that's a traditional male traits like stoicism, perseverance, leadership, protecting, taking charge. All of those seem to be toxified. It's not they even the American Psychiatric Association and I think it was 2000 I think it was 19 or 18 where they came up with a policy paper on how to work with men and boys. They basically said that traditional masculinity harms males and society. Yeah, not toxic, traditional masculinity like those terms. Yeah. So, so this the de-emphasizing not only de-emphasizing but the let's say the denigrating of these strong traits is part of it. And then on the flip side, and we're using the word feminization, but the fact is these are just words that have been ascribed to these types of traits, principles, ethos, which is basically the feminization, would be in a healthy way. It would be compassion, it would be harmony working together, empathy, you know, comfort, you know, it's a nurturing people. That would be the healthy part of it. But what they're seeing is that those the so-called compassion comes at a cost. If you abide by these types of expectations, then you get compassion. But if you don't, oh, there's no compassion. And then then you get basically excluded. You get shunned. Yeah, that's one example of the feminization. Right. And I think that, like anything, an extreme of masculinity or extreme of femininity can be, you know, toxic or negative or whatever you want to call it. But developing that harmony of the two is, is the goal. And to your point about graduate students noticing the feminization of our profession, it's interesting. I think that I completed my graduate studies before perhaps this larger shift took place, but I remember a supervisor posing to the class the question of can we as psychotherapists cry with our clients? And I sat back and I thought, like, what the hell? No, of course not. We can't do that. But the answer that was provided to the class was, of course we can. If we can laugh with our clients, we can cry with our clients because that's, you know, compassionate and caring, and that shows them that we really care. And I remember I took this to another supervisor for clarification, and because I, I felt like an alien, that I wasn't seeing it that way at all. And this more old school psychologist gave me the thoughts of, no, our job is to keep the game face on when you go in and that client needs your support and they don't need you falling apart. So it's tricky because on the one hand I can understand showing that increased level of compassion, but I tend to lean more towards the idea of no, like our job is to be there and be tough. Right? And we say be tough. We are modeling toughness. We're containing the person's negative experience. We're allowing them to feel the sadness, the hurt, the betrayal, the anger, whatever else. And we're saying let it out. And we anchor them, though, is the thing we do. We anchor. Yeah, exactly. We anchor, we contain them. And again, we model for them that we can show. Like I've shown patience. I've said, you know, I'm hearing this, it makes me upset or I really feel bad for you. That really sucks, right? But they see that strength inside of me and they see me trying to, you know, encourage them to embody that as well. And just, you know, to that point, I've had several they're always female patients who told me, apropos of nothing, I said, you know, that they had an experience where the therapist crier always a woman, never a man. And they said, I never came back. They were disgusted. Yeah. They were shaken up. And they said, wait, no, you as you said to me, I need to be my rock wanker. Oh, yeah. And it really, really shook them up. And then I've posed that question to my class for the last 20 years, basically, or 15, 20 years. And I've had so many students say it happened to them as well. Yeah. And they all had the negative reaction. I want to ask the other students, a lot of the students will say, Oh, that's compassionate when before,

What would you think of that? Yeah, but the people who had it, every single one bar none. I've never had a student tell me. No, no, I really appreciate it. Yeah. And I'll use a client's words here. So not to blow smoke up my own ass here, but he's a first responder, and many first responders have brought the same feedback to us into our clinic that they find when they have sought services elsewhere. There is this excessively soft therapy and, you know, sure time and a place for different type of clientele may respond to it. But generally speaking, that's not the method that first responders need. And interestingly, now is the time that first responders are finding, finally, the level of comfort and empowerment to be able to seek psychological services and therapy. So I feel there's a big dichotomy happening here where these, again, these tough men and women are coming to get help with, you know, the horrific things that they've experienced, but they're not getting what they need through this softer method of therapy. Right. And something else, too, that when I work with couples or when I work with somebody who has been in couples therapy, that as well. And it's interesting because, you know, as much as our profession is trying to, let's say, shut down or shift away from the traditional masculine roles, and they'll probably deny that. But again, you look at the literature, it's quite clear that's what they're doing. Yeah, I when they go into couples therapy or family therapy, they say that the therapist was really taking it in a very feminine or female oriented approach and are trying to put a square peg into a, you know, a round hole or whatever, you know, it doesn't fit. And they're not the therapist, him or herself is not adapting to the person. And so the person feels that they're you know, they're being made to feel inferior, even if the therapist uses language like, you know, I'm not judging and, you know, and they're trying to put the nice words. There's still a sentiment that this is the right way to do it. You have to be more compassion or whatever, you know, how about making the other person or encouraging the other person to toughen up? Yeah, maybe. Right? Yeah, maybe. Don't take everything so sensitive sensitively and so personally. Yeah. And that that word there adaptability. You say it to your supervisors. I do to to mine and it's it's such an important thing in our profession to have that degree of adaptability. And I've said it before in a previous podcast meeting the client where they are, it's so important for us to understand what works for them and what doesn't. And we can't go in with this presupposition that, you know, this way is going to work and this is what they need. Right? And you and I are talking about this with nuance. Yeah. And the the Andrew Tates of the world, you know, when they're selling their product, I don't think there is that nuance. No, no. Right. So the young men are basically hearing it's either, you know, totally feminization and you know, being a cuck or being a simp. Yeah. Or it's black and white. Black and white and black and white very rarely works. Well. Yeah. So again, as you said earlier, it's like trying to find the balance because we all have our masculine and our feminine sides are animus and the anima. And as Carl Jung said many years ago, if you're too far, if any male or females too far in one or the other is not healthy, you need that balance. Yeah, Yeah. So let's go back to point C that you made earlier as far as what the general repercussions are of men receiving this really black and white message. I want to share an example, but first talk a little bit about what you're seeing maybe firsthand, either with students or with patients in terms of like what do they do with this, this really black and white thought? Well, so here's the thing. What I hear from the males, I hear a lot of I'm lost. I don't know what to do. I'm being told to act a certain way. Let's say I have to be more compassionate, soft, empathetic. And they say, but wait, I'm going to a club. I'm looking at these YouTube videos or whatever, and I'm seeing the opposite of that. I'm being told by, you know, these people who seem like they have it all that no women want that strong man. Right? But then I try to be strong, then I'm putting my place or then I'm being told it's toxic masculinity or something. So I am seeing so many young men who are confused with what women want. And, you know, in these days, people there are far fewer opportunities, especially after COVID and during COVID, to meet organically. So they're meeting people online and so they're trying to put on a persona and they're trying to they're having a really hard time trying to navigate again. Do I go strong? Do I go soft? And so I'm just seeing a lot of anxiety and a lot of basically desperation because they're too young to be thinking, I'm going to die alone. But that's what a lot of I mean, that's just in general, I've said this many students, I've had so many patients, they don't outright just say it out of the blue. But when we're doing therapy, when we're exploring, you know, their deeper thoughts and their core beliefs and so on, the fear of dying alone. Yeah, it's a common theme, and I'm hearing it more and more these days. I'm hearing a lot of desperation. And so what I see is and here's the sad part. A lot of men who either they've tried a little bit and they haven't had success or they're so intimidated because either they don't know how to act the way the women want or they don't think they can measure up to these alpha males that are out there whose alpha males are hyper alpha alpha males. Sometimes, you know, they can be six foot six jacked, lots of money. Right. It's just so scary for them because once again, they're not out in the real world that much. It's more online. So they're afraid to do that. What do I see? I see more and more men, young men and boys just giving up. They retreat into into video games. It sounds like a cliche, but it's happening more frequently. Right. And their whole social relations, the social circles are online guys gaming on discord, which whatever they're doing. And that's that's their life right now. Yeah. So I want to expand upon what you said there. And specifically you said that these messages interfere with men knowing what women want. I'm going to challenge that by saying men don't know what men want because of these confusing messages. So I said I was going to share an example. So this is with the permission of my friend to share this: beautiful woman. She's literally a model. She's very high achieving variants, elegant, very feminine in many ways. But she's single. And she, you know, as is typical these days, she uses dating apps to to try to find, you know, the right match for her. So recently she met this individual online and they were speaking briefly and they ended up switching from talking on the app to talking on the phone. It was a 17 minute phone call before she hung up on him, because in addition to being a beautiful, ambitious model, she's also ex-military, an aspiring police officer, a bodybuilder like champion bodybuilder at the top of her game in many ways. And it then devolved into a conversation of how he, quote, feels sorry for her future children that she probably won't have because she's so career focused. Something terrible must have happened to you in your childhood. If you're choosing these very masculine professions and on and on and on, just completely degrading that the strong woman that she is. And as soon as she told me about this, the first person I thought of was, I bet you this guy is an Andrew Tate fan, right? Because that's the mangling of the message that he is sending out to men. Right. And it's funny you say that because, you know, you're saying, what am I hearing? I said, why her from the male side, from the female side, let's say from late teens to into the thirties and even forties, I have never heard so many people say this and I know what it is. I'll tell you in a second. And even my daughter now she's got a boyfriend. But before when she was dating, she would say the exact same things, which is it's what made these guys think that they should say what they're saying. And what they're saying is oftentimes they're just bragging about themselves. Yeah. Because again, Andrew Tate's about, you know, show your worth. Well, show it through, let's say tact, show it through, through action, through, you know, not through bragging about yourself. Number one, they complain about all these women who want this or that. Like they're just again, they're reciting from the Andrew Tate playbook. And they're telling a woman all these negative traits. Now, they believe that if they can swing it at the end and say, well, but thankfully you're not like them, but you've turned them off, by seeming like a misogynist at this point. So again, it's there's a playbook there and it seems like the playbook is redacted. So these guys are only picking and choosing a few parts of it and it's not playing out well and it's ugly. It would be funny, but, you know, it's it's let's say it's demoralizing for, you know, for the female and then the males going away thinking, I can't believe, you know, there's another woman as opposed to what's wrong with what I'm doing. Yeah, there's some other I mean, I mean, just being mindful of my language. And by the way, on a side note, what I when my daughter came home and she said that. So for example, one time she said that this guy, he seemed really nice, he was intelligent, good looking, but he monopolized the conversation. I said, Well, it's I've raised all three- I think I've said this before in another podcast. I've raised three of my daughters to be strong, independent, you know, compassionate, good people, not women. Right. And so I said to I said, look, your job to interject, you know, like you can't just expect them to ask all these questions. Would be nice if he did. But he said, I tried to do that. I gave up after like five times. So what I said to her was, I said, send him a message, you know, basically telling him what happened. Right. Don't don't chastise him, don't insult him. Just be neutral, objective, respectful. Take the high road. And with every guy that she did that to, They were all actually like they all they were apologetic. These guys were alpha males. My daughter's a very attractive, you know, intelligent, well-put-together person. So she's, you know, good with guys. And they all apologized. Some of them tried to, you know, can we do it again? Others said, look, I'm really sorry if you know this. I was anxious. I wasn't quite sure and everything like that. And so, again, instead of attacking them, instead of trying to, you know, castrate them, yeah, she worked with them and, you know, and she went on some dates like a future date with some of them who she thought maybe had some value to them. Yeah. With others she chose not to. But the point is she was trying to educate and it was done in such a nice way because if she had said anything else, they would have just said the most ugly things to her. And they wouldn't have. They wouldn't have learned anything. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's scary from my perspective with having a son who's 11 similar in age to your youngest daughter that the age that they're kind of growing up in with these confusing messages and they're getting to the age where, you know dating and all of that is going to start happening. And my son has relayed to us that people in his grade six class are parroting some of these Andrew Tate type messages. So thankfully, we have a very open dialog with our son and have talked to him about, you know, the idea of toxic masculinity and what it actually means. And it's not just a term we throw around. He's actually asked like, what's an alpha male? What does that mean, though? Thankfully, he's able to ask these questions and think critically. But I worry about the others in his class who, again, at the age of 11, think that this is the way to behave. Yeah, And again, when there's a lack of healthy models, when men are afraid to be men, you get your Andrew Tates. Yeah. And some people might say he's the pinnacle of men, but he's not really is not. And now the interesting thing is, with all these attempts to take him down, I don't know what the truth is. I've tried to, you know, hear about this case. And I think that these were trumped up charges. I you know, I don't think he did what he's accused of doing, I think he's smart enough not to do that as blatantly as they're claiming he's doing. Right. But so it's interesting that if there is a takedown, we have to think, you know, why are people so afraid of this kind of messaging now? Again, it's ugly messaging. Yeah, but what about the good parts of it? And interestingly, I think it's 2004. Maybe I could be wrong. 2004, 2005. The book, It was The Game. Okay? It was the The Secret World of pickup artists and it was written by Neil something and he was from the Rolling Stone. And it was actually, interestingly enough, this character in the game Mystery. He was someone from Toronto. And so in this book it basically and by the way, when I was teaching human sexuality every term, I would ask people who sort of The Game at first was a couple of males. Yeah. Then it became like more and more like every male had heard of it, very few females. And then it got to the point where after a number of years it kind of died down and all the females had heard of it, but very few males had. But the point of the game was that I told my patients as well, my male patients who felt they didn't have game. Yeah, I said, Read the book, I said, and take the good things from it about confidence. There were techniques that you can use. And I had been teaching this in my class before the game ever came out. Kudos to them for making millions of dollars off of it right? But I was teaching the same things to my students because these were fun games. They were engaging games. Yeah, it was using psychology to be able to get people to want to talk to you and get to know you, Right? That was all great. But the underlying message of the game was and some people heard the term ‘negging’, it came from The Game and for a while on all the TV shows or movies, they would use that term basically to to supposedly compliment somebody but insult them, have the same time. Right. And so I said the problem of the game, as I said, is it it's it relies on making the woman feel insecure, you know, insulting her, putting her down, dominating her. So I said, if you can filter that stuff out, there is some good stuff in there. And the same thing with Andrew Tate. If you filter out all the bad stuff, there are good lessons to be, you know, to be found. But most people won't do that well, especially when they're younger. As you say, younger kids are accessing this more than ever before. And they don't have the cognitive ability or the developmental status to be able to interpret this stuff properly. And that's the problem, too. And we'll talk about this, interestingly enough, in a in a future podcast as far as what's happening with exposure to the things like this on social media with young kids and their brains and so on. But let's go back to this, this idea of insecurity. It's creating insecurity in women. But I believe that a big part of this is insecurity in men. They don't know what to do and not to overgeneralize, but I think that this a lot of this, you know, macho type behavior, Andrew Tate type behavior, comes from an insecurity of not knowing how to be a man and what to do. Right. And the interesting thing is that and I'm not going to diagnose Andrew Tate, I want to be very clear on this, but many of the people that these young men are seeing are, let's say, either narcissistic or might have outright narcissistic personality disorder. And the funny thing or sad, actually, that people think that narcissist have such great self-esteem, confident, like. Quite the opposite. The opposite. Yeah. They're not aware of it. Yeah. No gun to head narcissist believe that they have the greatest self-esteem. They're leaders. They're they're grandiose. Yeah. But in reality it's, you know, it's covering up this this terrible insecurity. They're terrified of ever knowing anything about themselves. Truly their weaknesses, their vulnerabilities, their fears. And more importantly, they're terrified of ever being exposed to others. Right. So people are taking their cues. And again, I'm not saying Andrew Tate is a narcissist. No. Right. But there are many, you know, diagnosable narcissists out there. And the the the successful ones, they come across as confident. Yeah. Smooth engaging, appealing. That's the whole nature of the condition. That's exactly it. Yeah. And again and you know, even high functioning people often cannot discern right through confidence from the narcissistic bravado. So why would a young person be able to do that? Right, right, right. So like always, we want to take this in a positive direction. So what do we do with this? What can people do to, you know, be critical in their consumption of Andrew Tate's media? Because like we start out with, there's there's some value to it, but what can people do? Well, first of all, they have to know what are they looking for? Okay. Like like really, you know, if you're going, let's say, on dates, are you looking for a long term partner? Are you looking you know, just to hook up? Are you looking for some fun? They know what you're looking for, first of all, and see whether whatever you're consuming really will help you get that in theory, like before you even start digging it. Is this what I want more importantly than what I want is know yourself. To know yourself is to not look at the Andrew Tates of the world. It's all fluff. That's all right. Smoke and mirrors. Yeah. Go for some resources, whether it's and I'm not trying to push a certain mentality, but whether it's mindfulness, whether it's meditation, whether whether it's Buddhism, and look into those principles, see what it means to be a solid human being again within yourself, first within yourself. And then as we always talk about then for society or for the people around you. Yeah, right. Do try to do all those things. And by the way, as you saying about being critical when it comes to Buddhism and yoga, mindfulness, wellness and all that, the fact is I'm just going to throw it at random number. I'm making it up. But I would say maybe 80 to 95% of those people are fraudsters themselves. They are grifters. They don't most some of them know it, but many of them do not. And the funny thing is, we were talking about the Andrew Tate, the hyper alpha male, and the, let's say, the the sham that it is. Right. Well, then you have these other men. Yeah, they're so kind and gentle. But grifters have been around for as long as people have been around. Exactly. And again, some of them know what they're doing, but others are totally clueless and they end up being some of the worst monsters. And again, people they don't they don't understand this. They don't know this. The person looks, though. Yeah, but because the person doesn't know himself, right, he has the capacity to do horrible things and I've had so many patients who fall prey to that. Both that. And one more thing. About “Know what you're looking for”? I got to say, going back to the feminization of psychology I have had in the last, let's say a year or two, more and more women come to me as patients. Yeah, okay. Sometimes it's a mother, believe it or not, a mother sending her, you know, her daughter and saying like that she's seen what therapy has become or, you know, or she's heard my videos. And she goes, I think my daughter needs to hear this from you. Yeah, I yeah, it's I'm having more women say that they're going I'm tired These these these female therapists and again, I’m not shitting on them, you're a female therapist yourself. I'm one of them. Right. It's not about the sex. It's about how they comport themselves. And again, when they when they have a very narrow one track mind where it's all about this approach, where it's all people's problems can be dealt with this way. Or I get to act a certain way. That's again, as I said earlier, it's not adaptable, though, anyway, So I just want to throw that in there that I'm having more and more women say thank you because they see in me healthy, I hope, Healthy masculinity. Yeah. And I also have my femininity as well. I am compassionate. I am soft when it needs to be. You know, I need to be soft. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll echo what you said there as far as what can people do, first and foremost, embrace both sides. You know, we've spoken before about my masculine side and my feminine side, and they live in harmony, which is what makes me a healthy human being. And to that point, it's about knowing oneself, right? Knowing what you want, as you said, but also knowing oneself and having that deep level of introspection of who am I, what do I want and where am I going? Right? And by the way, with so many of my patients, male or female, I say, for example, if somebody is let's say they don't have great comedic timing, they're not quick witted, just don't have that. I say, don't try to be like that. I say, Watch stand up Comedians model them. There's lots of resources out there. I mean, there's the Internet, right? And see if you can improve a little bit in that area and ABC areas. But if that's not your greatest strength, capitalize on what that is. It doesn't have to be something like this yet. And that's really important. Goes back to know yourself, know your strengths, learn to be comfortable with them and don't try too hard. Yeah, and be yourself. Right? It's, you know, growth and change are certainly really important, but be true to who you are and as you said, develop those strengths that you have. Right. One thing though, when you say about be yourself, what I always tell my patient, especially when they go on and days ago, don't be yourself right I say be yourself inside. Know yourself. But everybody, we have a persona. We always put something out there. So you're right. So be true to yourself. Yes, be true to yourself. But don't be your full self. Nobody wants to see you. Not. Not just. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not yet. Right. There is some performance to that. But again, if you're trying too hard to be somebody that you're not or someone that you're that doesn't align with your values, somebody that you know doing things that, you know, maybe it'll get you some success, but afterwards you feel dirty, you feel ashamed, feel guilt, you know, Why would you want to do that to yourself? Yeah, that's short term pleasure. It's not worth the long term pain afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. Though I didn't think we'd spend that much time talking about Andrew Tate, but I think that's a good place to leave it. I believe so. So until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel. As much as we love listening to ourselves speak, especially me, we would love to hear from you as well. So our emails are in the description below. If you would, please write to us with your questions, feedback, comments, or topics that you'd like us to cover. We can do this together, the two of us, but it's much better if we do it together. So we look forward to hearing from you and we are going to have a segment called Rounds Table where we're going to discuss the the feedback and the questions and so on from our audience. And we will we will take it to the next level. We're going to help you be able to deal with some of these issues that you might be bringing us or it's going to be a topic for us to explore together. 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