I don't believe there's any evidence that humans are biologically designed to be monogamous. There's I've looked at my field. There is no evidence that we're biologically designed to be monogamous. Welcome to Awake at the Wheel. In today's episode, we're going to be discussing relationship. However, we're going to be discussing a less common type of relationship, which is open relationships. So, Oren, since this was your idea to discuss, I'm going to let you take the wheel from here. All right. So having taught human sexuality for over 20 years, this has been part of my as a field of knowledge and work. And I even helped one throuple become that way. And these were three people who had never been and they were very, let's say, pretty typical. And they had never engaged in such a relationship before, but because of circumstances, they ended up getting engaging in a polyamorous relationship. So, you know, a three person polyamorous relationship, and it's last for many years. And it kind of opened my eyes to the possibilities. Having said that, not with this couple, or this throuple necessarily, but with other people, and having taught this for many years and having engaged myself in the world of polyamory from afar, I know that it is fraught with so many problems. And today I'd like to explore with you the kinds of issues that that permeate these types of relationships. Yeah, and that was my initial thought when you proposed the topic, because we've spoken before about infidelity within couples. And I have a hard time, practically speaking, because, you know, of course, as far as what I learned in school and so on, I get the concept. But I wonder, practically speaking, how does it work specifically without encountering excessive jealousy? And you know, who spends time with who? And there's so many questions that I have about the dynamic and how that would work. Right. So in a previous episode, you were talking about recognizing that, you know, your partner can't be everybody for you. All right? And so you try to find other people to fit, to fit or to meet other needs. But the assumption is that this would be non romantic. It wouldn't be you know, it would be a a different type of relationship than your your individual partner. And with an open relationship, if done properly, there's a possibility of being able to find different people to meet different needs. But this is it's not science and it's very it can be very messy. And we are humans after all. And you mentioned the jealousy and in this previous episode we were talking about we were talking about infidelity, and we didn't get to this point. But I do I don't believe there's any evidence that humans are biologically designed to be monogamous. There's I've looked at my field. There is no evidence that we're biologically designed to be monogamous. However, because jealousy is so powerful in most people. Now, it's it's a spectrum. Some people have lots of jealousy to, you know, to being pathological. Others have no jealousy. But it seems to be a strong part of the human condition. And if that's the case, it would make sense that we're not meant to be polyamorous. Okay. So it's how do we get how do how do people manage if they don't happen to be the kind of person who is naturally not jealous? How do they manage a relationship where there are more than two people in that and they don't feel jealous because of the loss of time or lack of emotional commitment and other, you know, other things that come with with a normal relationship. So you said earlier, if done properly, there are ways in which this can be helpful, and that makes sense. What you're saying as far as yeah, I believe that one's partner can't fulfill every single role and be everyone's everything. So this seems perhaps like a logical way to fill in those gaps. But when you say if done properly, what does that mean? Well, here's the thing. And this always distresses my students because I say in order for a polyamorous relationship to work, there are two things that you need know. Like I say, there's probably 100 things by it's an exam. So I say there are two things, and I say one of them is necessary for any type of relationship, a monogamous relationship. Now, by the way, we're saying open relationships, there's different terms. Polyamorous is a specific type. Open is probably the broadest type. Another way we call it is consensual, non monogamous relationships. That's a mouthful, so we’ll just call them open. Sure. Right. This is if anyone is a, you know, afficiandao all of these types of relationships. I don’t want them to be offended by our using the term loosely. So look, I'll open. So I say there are two factors. And again, just understanding there are many other factors, but I say two and one of them I say is necessary for all relationships. And the other I say, is not necessary for all relationships, but it is for an open relationship to work. So can you guess what that one factor is that you don't you didn't open really in a normal relationship, but you do need it for an open relation. I knew you were going to ask me that. Well, I know in in typical heterosexual I won't even say heterosexual, but in typical couples it's having one's back. But I feel that because there are other gaps that are being filled in with this, I think there would have to be some element of trust or understanding or a mutual understanding of some sort. Okay. And I would say both of those answers make sense. The trust is really close. And I would say that when people say trust, they go, That's good enough, right? But I say complete honesty, right? And people say, what? You're not supposed have complete honesty in an open relationship. I say, no, we lie to our partners all the time. I'm not encouraging it. And I'm not saying that you should be lying all the time. But we're talking like little lies. Ask white lies, minor things. That's just natural. We lie all the time. Nobody is completely honest all the time. We can't function in a society that way. There have to be. And again, I'm not I want to be very clear. I'm not advocating or dishonesty. I'm just saying that naturally we can't be totally honest. But humans do. That's what humans do. But in an open relationship and I'll talk about why that is so important, but there has to be that understanding that everything is on the table, everything gets discussed openly and honestly, and that's something that you can't expect in a typical relationship. So that's the one. The other one I see is respect. Can I pause there, though? Why not? Right. Because and that's a very important question, because in a monogamous relationship, baked into the understanding of the, let's say, the rules of the parameters, is that when my partner walks out that door, that he or she is going to be true to me, they’re going to be faithful. They're not going to be with anybody else. It's the built in assumptions. This was built in assumption, but with an open relationship, that's not the case. And so let me go in the next step and I'll take back to your question. I say that the first rule of having an open relationship is that you have to lay out all the rules, all the parameters, all the expectations, all the boundaries. The second rule is that you will never have enough of those. So the fact is, even if you say, here's our understanding, for example, one, it might be that you can have sex with anybody you want, but there's not allowed to be any emotional commitment or you can have sex with anybody, but you have to tell me or you're not allowed to tell me or you have to ask me first. Or, you know, you can have sex with anybody unless they have hazel eyes or something like that. Like there are so many rules that you want to follow because you want to make sure going back to the respect that you're not disrespecting your partner by stepping outside of those rules and expectations. But the reality is, again, with this, there's not enough rules where the person could say, I when you said I can't be with someone with hazel eyes, I thought you meant, you know, Hazel all the time. This person's eyes were green when I saw them, and I found out later on they were hazel. Okay, now it sounds silly because. Yeah, but the point is, is there's there's, you know, flexibility in those rules that can be misinterpreted. Right. And if you don't have complete honesty, the person who you know, who saw their partner do that is going to feel, oh, my gosh, this person either cheated or disrespected, broke our trust. Right. So if you know that everything's on the table, everything's open and honest, when these rules get broken, inadvertently, they realize it was due to a mistake. It wasn't intentional, because once you intentionally go outside the relationship, how can the person trust that, you know, every time you walk out of there that you're not going to disrespect, betray, hurt them in some way? So that's within the context of cheating. But what about openness and honesty and clear communication within the other aspect of relationships? So how would this work? Do people live in the same house? Do they share responsibilities of the household? Like how typically does that work? Right. And again, every situation is different and that's what each person has to identify what they're expecting. And once again, if you're talking about it was a perfect point. That is not just about infidelity, but everything's about all of this and how much time, you know, if there's two other people in this relationship, like, you know, there's two of us and two others are five, whatever, you know, what are the expectations of how much time you spend or how much money you spend or anything like that? Right. So if that ever you know, if again, if the person ever trips up and doesn't act in accord with the way the person expects, then you have to make sure that it's done with It wasn't done with bad intention because once again, once there's that bad intent, once there's that break of trust, it's hard to for many people to suppress that either jealousy, resentment. And we've talked before about resentment being the cancer of relationships. Right. And in a relationship like this, in a situation where it would be so easy for the person to go, you know what? It's not working out with you. I'm going to leave. Right. I've got this other person or five other people or I have options. Right? I've built up this network over the time that we've been together. And if you feel that at any time because of the way that we set this up, my partner has so many options that I've allowed them to do. If you feel that way, you're going to feel insecure. And as you said, you know, the you know, the cornerstone of a good relationship is that sense of security. So even in open relationships, that is this paramount have to make sure that you feel secure in that relationship, even if that person's, you know, time is devoted to to 5, 20 other people, whether emotionally, physically, sexually, financially. Right. So we talked about filling in some gaps as far as, you know, what a typical couple may not be able to establish or accomplish. But what are some other goals or reasons that people enter into open relationship typically? Well, in the old days, okay, and I saw this happen so often and in the old days before the Internet, before you could identify yourself online saying, here's what I'm looking for. I am polyamorous or I'm into ABC or before that in most cases that I saw whether they wanted to admit it or not, and I say admit it or not, because at first they presented their situation one way. And when I probed, when I was able to get them to open up, then the truth came out. So what was the truth in most situations? And it's a cliché and many people watching right now are going to be able to predict What about, say, you're in a relationship, you've been together forever, like, I don't know what, six months? Okay, Now I'm being facetious because for some people, six months, Oh, my goodness. But, you know, but whatever the case may be, you've habituated to each other, right? That, you know, you've you formed a deep bond. You've gotten to another stage of the relationship. You're committed, maybe your life partners, but it can get stale. Mm hmm. So one of the people and statistically speaking, usually the man doesn't want to cheat, doesn't want to leave what he has. So he says, let's open up the relationship. And that was the genesis of virtually every single open relationship that I, you know, I encountered in my clinical practice, in my research for the book I was writing in my teachings, and it was so sad. So here's the thing. Like I'm just using man and woman, by the way, because you mention about heterosexual relationships. The fact is gay people have been doing this for much longer, so it's the norm. And so gay people tend to be better equipped to be able to deal with open relationships, because when that's the culture in which you've been sort of raised, so to speak, it's normal. It's normal. And, you know, it doesn't make it doesn't mean that gay people are equipped with certain, you know, capabilities that other people aren't. But you you adapt if that's something you want. And that's not to say that I know many gay people who want to just be in a, you know, monogamous relationship.-but it's more common. among homosexual couples? Exactly. And because it's more common, it's you know, it's easier to talk about it with other people. It's easier to see people who've modeled healthy versions of this. Whereas when it's something still to this day, even though open relationships are becoming more common, still, there's the taboo. Still there's the judgment. So it's still it's kind of like shrouded in secrecy. We'll talk I'm going to talk more about the communities, because those communities are Well, we'll talk about that. Okay. But so sorry. I got a little bit lost on the question of, I think, how we got where we started. Sorry. So that way. Right. So so here's what is going to say. In some cases, the partner again, we use male female can a female partner went along with it was open minded. Decide to try that? Hey, why not? But in most cases she didn't want to go along. But she would rather share than lose her partner, and some women from the beginning were able to admit that, others couldn't admit it. At the beginning. But I could see it. I saw in their eyes. And it's I saw them lying themselves going, Oh, this is fine. This is great. And then you could see that the the despair. Mm hmm. And when you lie to yourself, a part of your mind knows that they're trying to convince themselves that they're happy, that it's, you know, it's progressive and so on. But they were dying inside. Yeah, right. So that was so sad that I saw it. I got to tell you that I say this to my students. Just indulge me for a second here, because it's I'm only one person. And for me to have seen this happen so many times, there's something to this, that and and I don't I'm not trying to make fun of anybody. But I have to say, I have seen multiple, you know, a plurality of cases in which, again, the man opens up the relationship because he doesn't want to cheat, blah, blah. And the woman goes along with it begrudgingly and in most cases, or sorry, in some cases, the guy had somebody in mind specific and it didn't work out either. They tried it and it was not what they thought or he got rejected. Okay? Or something happened that just it didn't work out or they didn't have anyone specific in mind, but it just it wasn't working out. And the woman who didn't want to lose her partner but want to, you know, would rather share. She ends up going, Oh, my gosh, I am rocking it. She's loving it. Okay. And the guy wants to put the brakes on it. And I was like, No. This is great. Yeah. So that's a -pardon my language- It's a karma bitch slap. So that has happened so many times. But I want to go back then to my original question and I think your answer to it, and correct me if I'm wrong, is it's about sex. It doesn't sound like it's actually filling in other gaps. It seems like it usually boils down to sex. That was originally that I was seeing. Yeah. Okay. And I would say there was probably I'll try to think of some of the people I spoke with. There were a few cases where the person it didn't. So they were in the relationship. The sex life was fine. Yeah. But the other partner didn't stimulate them mentally or emotionally. So they started, you know, talking to other people at work or whatever, especially with smartphones. Right. They were they were getting closer and more intimate to somebody. And then they were like getting worried that, you know, the next step then could be sex. But it didn't start that way. And sex was not lacking in the relationship. So they met other needs, emotional needs, intellectual needs. So it sounds like sometimes or many times it is the alternative to cheating. Yeah, in many cases that's pretty much it. So I have a hard time with that because and I'm going to be a little bit facetious here, so it doesn't sound like it's necessarily about filling in the gaps of the relationship. No one's going in seeking an open relationship because they want someone to do their dishes or vacuum, right? Because these are often things that we see couples fighting about in couples therapy. So I think for the most part, it does boil down to a couple of things. One of them is meeting emotional unmet emotional needs and perhaps that leads in to meeting sexual needs. Or starting off meeting the sexual needs right now. But we're talking about people who kind of fell into this. Mm hmm. Then there are other people, and I don't want to to neglect them. Who from the start say that They choose this. They choose this, they say it’s is their nature and they are being more pragmatic. And they do think that, yeah, having more people, it can help with taking care of the home or the family, children and so on. Finances. Mm hmm. And so they take a different approach. Okay. Okay. Now, the thing is, as we said earlier, about jealousy, and this is why in the previous podcast, we were doing about about cheating, I said that humans aren't designed to be monogamous, but I don't think we're designed to be in an open relationship because of jealousy. So I think humans are designed, believe it or not, to cheat. I'm not advocating it. Okay. But but and there are certain primates as well. Other primates where. You're saying instinctually that’s how we’re designed. Right. And whenever I talk about instinctually, let's be let's be clear. Just because our DNA from hundreds of thousands of years ago may have, you know, led us to certain proclivities, we have this giant prefrontal cortex that allows us to know, to to use judgment, to use. Them to understand culturally, sociologically, these things are not acceptable, even though biologically we may want it. Right. But having said that, if you look at all the cultures on the planet, including the tribe and so on, the majority are non-monogamous. Really? Yeah, They're actually polygynous. They're not not the accepted not practiced that way because what do you think is the number one factor that prevents people in communities that have polygynous- Now I said polygynous not polygamous. Because polygamy is just the general general construct of one person with multiple partners. Polygyny is one man with multiple females and polyandry would be one woman with multiple males. Yes. So and I know in historically there were a couple of polyandrous, maybe tribes or small societies, but of course, the majority is polygynous. So what do you think is number one reason in those places that men don't have polygynous relationships? I want to say financial. Exactly. Yeah. Financial. Yeah, that's pretty much it. Now, in modern day, I mean, finance, of course, is an issue. And as I always say to everyone, if you're going to try this, the other resource that people don't have a lot of his time. Yeah, right. And so I wanted to go to this is what's so important if anyone wants to check it out. And I don't want to denigrate an entire community, you know, and I haven't checked them up for a while, so maybe they got better. But I, I was observing them for quite some time. I took a break because it was breaking my heart to see what I was seeing, I’ll tell you in a second. And then I went back and it was like, Oh my God, it's just as ugly as before. Which is there are, let's say, whether it's Reddit, Facebook group, or other places where there are polyamorous communities. And so I would watch I even I even interjected a few times, and I'm telling you right now, or this is common in other places in other contexts as well, sometimes the people that demand the most tolerance and acceptance of themselves are the least tolerant and accepting of others. Yeah, and I'm telling you right now, if you go to these forums and you see somebody either asking questions or complaining about a certain situation, the judgment that they get, it's ridiculous. So I'm asking you give one example. I want to be careful. I mean, it's not my patient, so I can say, sure. It's on a public forum. Right? It's on a public forum. And the person was complaining that it was Christmas time and there and I forgot the term that they used. But their husband, they were married. Okay. He was spending more time with his mistress. They had different there other his third that the third with her apartment. Right. And because she was not she she didn't have anyone else, but he wanted to do it. And she was talking about how she felt lonely. She felt alone. And people just jumped on her as she had children with him as well. And it's Christmas Day and he's not there with the family. Right. And she has this you know, we're a family. You want to have your own, you know, either sexual or whatever needs met, fine. But you're also. Responsibilities at home. Exactly. Yeah. And people were jumping all over it saying, well, you're you should count yourself lucky because she has you know, you have him the majority of the time and blah blah. And everything she said showed that this man was basically treating his other. Mm hmm. Much better gift wise, time wise, even symbolic wise, because he was with her on Christmas Day and certain dates instead of with his family. But that goes back to what you said earlier, where there weren't clear mapped out expectations and communication of what this is going to look like. Right. Well, and I've tried to remember whether she had I don't want put words in her mouth or write. I can't remember if she had said what she had expected. In this case, it seemed pretty clear that she was afraid to leave me. Yeah. Okay. That even if she had said these things, he would said, That's not to my liking. And she went along with it. And again, she had family. She wanted to maintain that family, the facade of family for the children or for whatever other reason. So the point is and I was watching people and they had all these baked in assumptions and they were attacking her. And that's what turned me off as I saw the attacks. So many cases. Yeah. So have I. Have I have I compelled you to to do you think consider this now? No. Well, but let me say, as we know, I'm very open minded and very respectful of all people's choices. But I think it's been made pretty clear in the series of episodes that we've done that I'm, you know, very much for the commitment of a couple, and that's not to denounce anybody else. But that being said, I think this is a good example of I don't know how to put it, whether it's an open relationship or a couple or whatever the case may be. Partners can be shitheads. Right. Right. So it seems like sometimes people gravitate towards an open relationship as a remedy for relationship issues, but the same type of problems can still persist. Exactly. And again, it's the jealousy aspect. Even if someone's not aware of it, if they feel if they're feeling jealous. I mean, jealousy by nature, it means that you're afraid that you're losing something or someone. Hmm. So if you're feeling jealous, that means you're feeling neglected. If you're feeling neglected, you're not feeling secure. If you're not feeling secure in the relationship, it can't be a fulfilling, rewarding relationship. So no matter how much people say, Oh, I'm okay with this, again, statistically speaking, there's only a tiny percentage of people who can truly, you know, feel happy for the partner without the jealousy. By the way, I want to throw this term out. There is a term is the opposite of jealousy is basically be happy for your partner's happiness. Okay. It's called compersion, and I use this in in my clinical practice. When I talk to people and I explain to them, I think it's only used within polyamorous relationships again. So if my partner's going out and I know they're going to be with somebody else instead of being jealous or upset or lonely, I'm happy that they're having this, you know, enjoyment. Right. But I, I try to transition that into other situations where I say, just be happy, you know? Let's say you're struggling at work, but your partner got a raise. Be happy for him. Right. Have you know just that. So I try to broaden the term compersion into those situations so there's something that can be learned in that regard. Right. Being happy for someone else's joy. Yeah. So what I say is I'm not fully sold on the idea yet. And I'm reminded actually have a conversation. A good friend and I had a few a couple months ago now actually, where it was more of a thought experiment because both of us have been in long term relationships since we were quite young. And we're like, Yeah, you know, I can see the argument being made for this because like we started out discussing here that, you know, everybody’s partner can't be their everything. So okay, I can I can see in theory an argument for it, but you still haven't convinced me that it works. And I'm not trying to convince you that it works because I've seen some cases where it does work. Yeah, I know quite a few. Yeah. And great for them. Like, really! And I don't know if they were just, you know, they get naturally low on the jealousy scale or they were able to work their way into it if they're, if they're rationalizing, if they're lying to themselves, it'll never work. Right. It'll work for a while. But the truth comes out inside their, you know, in their mind, in their body. So but I have seen it work in some cases. And again, they respect each other. They they understand the boundaries. They don't transgress those boundaries. And it does work. So it can work. But again, I'm saying it's in the tiny minority of people. And for them, you know, kudos to them. That addresses my next question, actually is what percentage of them work and not just work, but have longevity? Yeah, I can't give you a number. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. And any research that is done on this that there is some research. You know, you're looking at self-report, bias. Does somebody want to do it right, You know, because, you know, you lie to yourself, I've committed to this. I can't I can't admit afterwards. Oh, my gosh, it's not working out. Right. Right. Right now, there's a few things about that out of one of them. I just lost it. But I'll say the other, which is trying to, let's say, initiate the discussion. So, you know, let's say you're young person and, you know, things are going great with your partner, but you're still young. And by the way, I'm going to just I'm going to go on a bit of a change, but it's probably related, which is I am I've lost count. I have literally lost count of the number of young men, whether it's my patients, whether it's the partners of my patients, or whether it's my students or others who have said they're young men, they go, I'm polyamorous. Mm hmm. Okay. And what does it mean? Well, they're with a partner and they're still horny for other people. Right. That doesn't make you polyamorous. Okay, That makes you a man, and a woman. It makes you a person. To person, because biologically, that's what we are. We're not monogamous. Yeah, right. That requires a lot of high level prefrontal cortex function. So that's the first thing. Okay. So the second point is, if you are that person where you're not prepared, whether it's maturity, whether whatever it is to settle down with one person and you want to broach the topic of open relationships. Yeah. What do you think is the number? And I've seen it play out so many different ways, but what is the problem with trying to broach the topic and as subtly as possible and as attentively as possible? Do you think. I'm going to assume that the recipient of the conversation jumps the conclusion of ‘Well, you want to cheat on me or you're not happy with me? Something's wrong with me”. Exactly. And I always tell people that. So if anyone's thinking about, you know, broaching the topic, as soon as you open your mouth, the person, it's almost impossible. On the defensive. Yeah, they're going to be defensive. And what's wrong with me? I'm not attractive enough. You've lost interest in me. Maybe you've already cheated and you're just doing this now virtually prospectively to try to cover for it or retroactively. Sorry. So yeah. So I always warn them. And so I don't like I don't mean to be manipulative. I mean to be strategic, but I tell people, if you are going to sort of test the waters and even if you do this, there's still a pretty good chance that your partner is going to be wondering what's going on here, what you know, what are they thinking? But I say you mention a program like there's several I can't think of them off the top of my head for some reason. Okay. But in my students, I would say, look, you can see that we talked about in class seeking to say they go, oh, hey, you know, and just to sort of do it kind of in a confused manner. Hey, I saw this program. Hey, you know, we're just wondering. We're just wondering. Yeah, it was loosely and lightly as possible, but even then, there's a pretty good chance that as soon as you do that, every time you walk out the door, your partner's wondering, what is the person doing? Okay. So you have to be careful. You know, that's a caveat that you have to be aware of. And there was one more point that I've lost. I hope it'll come back as we're talking. Yeah. So I don't even know where to go with this next, because I, I think that similar to monogamy, monogamous relationships, a lot of what this boils down to is do people operate under the notion of one foot out the door? Like, I have options, I deserve options. I deserve to be happy and do what I want. Right. It's tricky because to me, it's kind of having your cake and eating it, too. So if you have the person at home, the stable person, and again, whether it's for your sense of security or whether for optics, and then you can do other stuff. Yeah, there's no reason to leave. Right. So in most of these cases, they aren't necessarily going to leave now unless unless they realize I'm not actually polyamorous. Right. Which is most of the cases, by the way, I remember as Incel saying the second. Okay. But yeah, if they realize that, then yes, what you just said is exactly right. The person who let them do that now they've tasted, you know, these other drinks and they might go, This one's more to my liking. And there's a huge risk. If that happens, it happens. You know, the more often that people like to admit, because once again, this person is not really polyamorous. Yeah. Yeah. And I know when you proposed this topic, I said that I am, you know, admittedly a little bit judgy, and that's certainly not my goal here. Like I said, I'm a very open minded individual, but I wonder, too, then if part of this comes from the knowledge and understanding that relationships are hard and maybe people don't necessarily feel equipped or compelled to do the hard work. Is this just an easier way to deal with the hard work of relationship? Excellent question. And the answer is yes and no. It's in theory an easier way. Yeah, because again, I have my cake too, right? In reality, it's much harder in most cases to manage this in a way that works. And again, it often doesn't work. And I'm going to say so I'm going to throw to you, Malini, and this is worth thinking about earlier for most people, whether they actually had done it or they thought about it, there is a, let's say, a stepping stone, the first step to an open relationship type and a consensual non-monogamous type of lifestyle. What do you think it is? For most people, it's very common, at least. Sorry. It's of all the different options, this is probably the most common. So what is the first step in that direction? Yes, I'm I'll say in fantasy or in action. No idea. Threesomes. Oh, shit. Yeah. Okay. Yes. So that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's. It's such a common heterosexual fantasy, right? Homosexual fantasy. Well, but how sexual? So. Yeah, but. So they think, you know, it's a couple think it's great. And especially young people or even a couple have been around for a while. So I'm just going to say to anybody who's thinking about it and in my in my human sexuality class, they talk about all these different ways that people can keep a long term monogamous relationship alive, fun, and so on. And I always talk about the threesome as an option, but that's on the exam. That's the wrong answer or it's the correct answer. I say, out of all the options, which one does your instructor, you know, advise against? Mm hmm. And I say, if you can manage it, great. But what do you think is the number one reason threesomes don't work out like Jealousy. Exactly. Yes. I can't believe you did it. I somehow you're looking at that. You don't do that when I do that. And so on. Yeah, exactly. So once again, fantasy versus reality. And that's why, you know, we've talked about this quite a few times in different podcasts about the, the, the, the need to know yourself, know your needs, know your values, know what you really want. Don't lie to yourself. Be honest with yourself. And again, it might seem great on paper, but mentally take an experiment, step back, be mindful and try to see is this really going to work out like the way I want? Or are you just succumbing to fantasy? Because if you come to fantasy, most likely not going to play out the way you expect. Yeah. So this podcast is a little bit different because I came in with not a whole lot of knowledge on this topic, but in terms of, you know, our usual question of so what do we do with this? I think in many ways you just answered that as far as, you know, having an honest discussion with oneself and of course one's partner, I suppose if it's going to be opened up into an open relationship about what do you want, what are our values like, we always talk about and realistically, what is this going to look like? Right, exactly. Yeah. I've got nothing more than what I've said earlier, what you just said right now. So until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel. 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