Many times these adversities are used as an excuse, rather than explanation for why you have to work harder. Welcome to Awake at the Wheel. In our episode today, we're going to be talking about anti-hustle/anti-grind culture. Namely, we're going to be talking about work ethic. We're going to talk about some shifts in our culture as far as the attitude towards hard work and what some of our thoughts are in terms of what's contributing to it. So this came about because I read an article not too long ago about something called Bare Minimum Mondays. So what the idea of this was, is take Monday for yourself, take Monday for self-care. Don't go into work and work too hard because you don't want to jeopardize your mental health. So of course, as mental health practitioners, we value mental health, we value self-care. But it really gives me pause because it makes me think that, well, are we just being lazy in the name of mental health? I don't know. What do you think, Oren? Well, as with everything we talk about, it's a matter of balance. And so, you know, we don't want somebody who's working themselves to death, as they did in Japan. There was even a term for that: Karoshi. Okay. And we also do want people to be lazy and never to to grow and not to be able to, let's say, procure things that they want so that they can have a more fulfilling life. So it's a tough balance, but I am seeing a huge shift among younger people, mostly males, women as well. But I see more so with males in not wanting to do what's necessary to get to that place where you have either a strong career or financial stability. Yeah, and I think it a big part of it comes down to goals. So perhaps we should talk a little bit about our own experiences with incredibly hard work. So in our clinical practices, of course, we work very hard. We see a high volume of patients and clients. But I want to talk about how we got there and the idea or sorry, the example that comes to mind for me is when I was in graduate school, so I was working full time. I was in graduate school full time doing my master's and my son was three, taking care of a household, studying until 2 a.m. and that was pretty much every day for two and a half years. So by no means do I suggest that anybody keeps that type of schedule for the long term. But there's a great deal of value in us being able to challenge ourselves and prove to our self that we have that capacity to work incredibly hard. Not to mention it's really rewarding. And I know in your graduate studies, in your studies in general, you had similar experiences with working 80 to 100 hours. So talk a bit about that. Well, I made a unilateral decision before I got married, like literally a few days before I got married. I saw that my career that I had had, which was great up until that time was stagnating. And so I thought, you know, I I'm not going anywhere. I hadn't got my undergrad degree yet. And again, with the life I had up until that point was pretty good for a young person. But I was looking at the future and I was about to get married and I wanted to be able to provide for her. And if we decide to have children, I want to be able to provide. And this was a long time ago. Now, you know, it's much harder because of the finances, you know, the financial situation. But even back then, I realized that. So I decided to to go back to school in undergrad full time. I'd done one year under my belt. I went back, did my three, and also did graduate school right afterward for however many years I took. That took a long time and I was working full time the entire time, starting off as doing teaching at first and I was doing private teaching and then I was doing clinical work. And so yeah, I learned, you know, I 80-100 hours? I learned that, you know, it's not that difficult to do if you don't sleep. Sleep is overrated. Sleep's overrated. Yes. And the fact is, though, I mean, look, I don't begrudge anybody who you know, I actually I have empathy for people who need a lot of sleep. My Constitution is such that I was able to get away with going two or three nights, literally with no sleep or on average getting two or 3 hours of sleep a night a night. And unlike you see, you you were doing much more of the work at home like of taking care of your son. My wife, she took on that burden and she was going to go back to work part time after we had our first child. But the job wouldn't allow her to do that. So we just made this decision that I'll just keep working my ass off. I'll be able to support us, and she'll take care of the family. And she's done that ever since and has been 25 years, almost 26. And again, if I didn't have her support, I don't know if I'd have been able to do it. I would have got the work done, but I wouldn't be eating healthily. I wouldn't have a family most likely. So I have to give that credit. And again, if people don't have those other resources, I don't expect everybody to be able to do these kind of, you know, long, long hours. Yeah. So let me clarify, too. I want to give credit where credit is due. I was also quite fortunate to have the strong support of my husband where he took on, I would say, the lion's share of the household tasks and so on. So I absolutely agree with you that, you know, one person can't do it all. And I think that that's a great point that you make that we can segue into, is that hard work is important, but doing so in a healthy and balanced manner. And if one is fortunate enough to have support, whether that's through a spouse or family or friends or other, the case may be I think that enables one to be able to push that much harder. So with respect to hard work, what do you think is shifting in terms of the lack of desire to do so that we're seeing? There are a few things. First one of them and we've talked about this in other podcasts to some degree that there's a lot of people don't feel that there's something greater than them, greater than what's here right now. They don't have something to drive toward or for some reason to do all of these things. They're not committed to something above themselves. And if you don't have that, it's really hard to justify, you know, working yourself to the bone, because even the salary that they get, it's like it's not enough. All right. Or is this hard to justify all the hard work they're feeling, number one? Number two, there has been and I'm going to use this term a bit loosely, but maybe even literally, there has been a shift to a narcissistic perspective. Me, me, me, me, me, me. I deserve this. I you know, I deserve to be seen as this grand, great, successful person, even if I haven't put the labor in to it to achieve this, even if I've done nothing. And so a lot of people, they're seeing this on social media. Well, there's two there's several reasons. One is that children from a young age are seeing this, you know, on social media. They're being told from a young age that you can have it all with doing very little. You can become an influencer, you can live like this. And so on. FOMO, fear of missing out. It's drive people. They don't want to say, Why should I work when that would prevent me from going to this party or on this vacation or something. And they haven't been taught. The second factor is that not enough parents these days are doing the harder work, which is raising your children with a right perspective, which is you don't get anything except for, you know, sustenance, shelter, whatever you need to earn your keep, you need to work hard. People aren't going to just give it to you. Unfortunately, a lot of parents are teaching kids that they are just going to give it to you, right? If I put it, if I can go on a bit of a tangent here, because I see this from the youngest of ages and I understand some of it is people's concerns about safety. However, I'm going to tell a story that I want, my favorite stories. So I see so many parents today driving their kids to school every day, right? The kids take the subway, whatever else, but they just drive them. Yeah. Number one. Now, my wife and I, we're a little bit guilty with our youngest one. We're doing that more these days and there's reasons for that. Okay. But they just do that. And it's it's just that's what it is. The kids come to expect it. Yeah. And I remember one time a teenager had acted out, done something really bad, and and the parents said, what should I do? I said, well, if you take them to school, you know, the next day, you're just rewarding his bad behavior. So she didn't take him to school and she told me that it's just proud I said so. Also, he finally took the subway. She says, No, he took an Uber. I said, Oh, great. And he paid for it. Said, No, he's my you know, my Uber account is like, What are you teaching? So and by the way, that person, just so you know, I got, I whipped her to shape. Yeah. And she got her child in shape as well. And here's the thing. The reason I'm talking about parenting is I always tell parents that I say the most important goal of parents. Right. And it's going to sound very pragmatic. It's not going to sound very nice. But the fact is we're trying to raise our kids to be able to leave the nest one day. Yeah, right. That's our job. That's our job, right? We want to love them, etc., etc.. But we need to prepare them for the world. And I always tell parents that's the messaging you have to give your kids from the youngest of ages. Will they like it? No. Will they accept it? No. But at some point down the road, if they hear enough times, they're going to realize, oh wow, this was for my betterment, right? It's giving me the leg up so I can leave the nest at some point. Right. So what you're describing here in many ways is a lack of discipline in childhood. And unfortunately, that then leads to a lack of ability to develop self-discipline, which then translates into a lack of desire to do hard work and to feel the discomfort that comes along with it. That requires a lot of self-discipline, any sort of discomfort. But I think the thing that people are really missing out on in this attitude, it's learning, again, One's capacity to do really hard work feels really good, right? Not to mention the fact if we can learn to overcome something we don't want to do or that we hate, man oh man, can we do a lot and accomplish a lot! But I feel that people are being robbed of that opportunity for the many reasons that you've described. Right. And what you're talking about. First of all, what you talked about self-discipline, everything. Right. And it's the ability to delay gratification. Yes. All the research is clear. Yes, right now, the famous marshmallow test from like the 50s or 60s has been replicated many times. Right. So the child who's able to to not act on their their their hedonistic or selfish needs or desires in the moment, but to delay that gratification, do what they need to Now they will be, you know, they're far more likely to be successful later on. And as you said, if you're able to overcome the discomfort, overcome the adversity, work hard and master, or accomplish something, that sense of fulfillment is a super power and you just want more of it. It feels good not because someone gave you a gold star or something like that, or you got an A, but because you know I did it. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think a huge part of this too. I'm talking about the discomfort. I think that a big challenge as well is that stress, which is natural in pushing oneself, is being inferred or interpreted as anxiety. And then that turns into, well, you know, I don't want to hurt my mental health. So perhaps there is a difficulty in distinguishing what is normal, adaptable, helpful stress and what is disordered anxiety and not to by any means suggests that it's an excuse, but I think there's at least a misinterpretation of the difference. Oh, definitely. And for everybody, that threshold is going to be different. Yeah, and unfortunately, parents these days, they don't want to risk that their threshold. It's much lower right then. Then what I would say and there are exceptions, there are some children who really are, as you say, they're anxious or they have, you know, limitations. Right. But I think so many parents are afraid. And because a lot of parents are feeling guilty, you know, maybe both parents are working or both parents are wrapped up in their own hedonistic, selfish, self-centered pleasures, which are perfectly fine unless it comes at the cost of doing your job right. So and again, part of the job is also modeling for the kids. So my my kids know I work my ass off, they see it and I've told them so many times, like I want to provide for them. I want them to have the sense of security I didn't have growing up. My mom worked her ass off as well, but I just didn't get much right and she didn't make much at the beginning. So I learned at a very young age like, don't expect anything, because we didn't have much. Now we were poor, but that's Canada poor. So left always keep that in mind. Right? But I was working from the age of ten delivering papers, and I say that to my kids. They go, Well, we can't deliver papers anymore. It's like, I get it. Fine. That was-- What a racket! But the fact is, from that age of ten and so I knew the value of money, and if I wanted something, I had to save up. It's why it's a cliche. I get it. And it's different time, different era or whatever. But there are still ways to inculcate your children with that same sense of I need to be responsible for something. If I want it, I need to earn it. Or at the very least, if I earning it, you know, clean your room, be a good kid, whatever. It all comes back to that. As you said, discipline and being able to put aside your the desires and working hard at something that is not pleasant necessarily. Yeah. And there's so much value in giving kids tasks to do. And I phrase that very carefully because I think if we call it chores right, then they're going to internalize that as, well, “This isn't something I want to do”, but if it's tasks and contributions to the household, it's meaningful, it's engaging with the family and contributing to the household. And that's incredibly meaningful and helpful. But I also think that that's not happening a whole lot anymore because any number of reasons, whether it's parents not wanting to engage their children in things that are uncomfortable or like you said, maybe some guilt, I think there's a number of reasons, but at the end of the day, I don't think that those values are being instilled right. And if you don't have them early on and you talk about discipline, values and so on, part of that also then is structure. Yeah, kids need structure, not over structure, but they need some structure. And when they're being raised in a society where you can be whoever you want and you can do whatever you want, that's not structure. They need to know there are rules, there are hierarchies, there are systems in place, and you may not like them and you shouldn't be a slave to them. You should question them. I was raised to question everything but to learn how to navigate through them because that those external structures then become internalized. And that internalized structure is what we're talking about, about the discipline, impulse control and so on, and delayed gratification. Right? So some real world examples of this, because I think it's important for us to really frame this as this does have real consequences. And we're seeing it in a number of professions. And as you know, and as our listeners likely know by now, I work with a lot of first responders and I'm seeing from a lot of the more senior ones, they're observing the new ones coming in to whether it's the police force or whatever the case may be, that they don't have the same drive and work ethic and self-discipline that is necessary to do this job. And I'm speaking a little bit loosely, but this is also based on an actual story that I was told where they're having to go around the entire force of young officers to see who's going to work Christmas, because, you know, this person has this event, this other person has another event, and that's fine. People have families and priorities and so on. But there are certain jobs like first response, working in hospitals, the medical profession, where sometimes you have to put that stuff aside and that's okay because that's a requirement of the job. You know, if I'm not feeling well, I can't necessarily call all of my clients and say, Sorry, I don't feel good. You can't come in today because there's greater meaning and greater responsibility to what we're doing. Well, that's exactly it. That greater the meaning and responsibility. And so, so many people, again, if you're raised to believe it's all about you, that's literally the antithesis of what you just talked about. So and it's not just parents. It's school. When I don't know if it's only Ontario, it's all of Canada. But, you know, there's policies in schools where you don't fail anybody. Yeah, right. A kid misses a test, a kid cheats on a test. Whatever else, they get to do it over again. No punishment, no no penalty or anything like that. So, so many kids are just being, you know, pushed through the system. They aren't and they're not learning that you need to be accountable. Right. So that's a huge part. Now they're using COVID as an excuse. And by the way, COVID, yeah, it really messed up a lot of kids education, whether it's in, you know, primary school or university. It had a huge impact. Yeah, but that doesn't mean now that we're kind of, sort of out of it, I guess, it doesn’t mean that we should not go back to what it was, which is, again, teaching kids there. Is that your your outcome, your results are contingent on your effort. Right. And if you don't try hard enough, you're not going to get it. If you if you don't have the capacity, either you learn it, find a different path, get help, something like that. But kids aren't learning any of that. And because of that, they're not learning adaptability, they're not learning resilience. They're not learning to fail. Again, whether it's COVID or something else. Many parents, they don't want their child also to have that adversity. I've told so many patients it's better for the kid to fail, whether it's literally fail or, you know, stumble when they're younger, when there's really no not much consequence. Then much later in life, when. Literally that's helping our brains develop and develop neural net connections, when we do fail and have to learn what to do better next time. Exactly. It's adaptability. Yeah, And that's a theme that's been in several of our podcasts because I always tell people that the best definition and I for my one of my graduate papers, I was looking at emotional intelligence. So as part of that, I had to also, you know, look at the history of intelligence, different types of intelligence and so on. And I'll tell you right now, for over 100 years, all the experts in intelligence agreed that adaptability was a one of the most, if not the most important, let's say, components of intelligence. And others say that adaptability is the best definition of intelligence. And so if we're not teaching children to adapt and to overcome adversity and to learn from mistakes and failures and so on, we're robbing them of, you know, again, this ability to develop into a smarter person or a smarter functioning person. Yeah. So I hesitate to bring up this next point because I would hate for it to be taken out of context, but what you were saying there really made me reflect on the fact that many times these adversities are used as an excuse rather than explanation for why you have to work harder. And I guess I'll use myself as an example here. I'm blind. I can't see a whole lot. I can't do a whole lot as a result, but I'll pat myself on the back here. I think I've also achieved an awful lot because I've learned how to be adaptable. I've learned how to overcome adversity, I've learned how to work around things, and that then translates into other aspects of my life that hard work came from that adversity, that that ability to work incredibly hard. But I wonder if more often than not, those are being used as excuses to not have to work hard. Well, yes, and unfortunately it is happening more often and not even as severe or significant of a limitation as you have much smaller things. And it's often, you know, I don't want to go too far into this, but let's just say that people are finding a lot of reasons just to claim that certain people are just it's impossible to overcome. And if they hear that from a young age, why would they be motivated? Why would they think that they can, you know, overcome? And I talk about this in a different podcast, which is we should be holding up as models of, you know, to help encourage people to look up to them, to aspire to be like them, people who have overcome the exact same adversities or difficulties as they're being told that it's impossible to Right that. And whether it's parents, whether society, whether it's school, that's all of our jobs. We are the people who are, you know, who are trying to move society forward. And I think many people are, you know, asleep at the wheel. And this is why we're seeing this. And once again, it goes back to whether it's you're not responsible for your actions or your circumstances or you don't have the abilities or why bother about something greater than yourself, focus on you. Yeah, it's I'm selfishly thinking about myself here as far as. Okay, so what is it about me that that pushed me? And I think, you know, my parents were certainly a great example of that. I think personality is a big piece of it as well. Sure. And as you were talking, I thought of the the most poignant time in my life when I was not sure of what it was that was going on with my vision. I was in grade five. So what, ten years old or so, going from doctor to doctor. And the nature of my condition is such that back then the technology did not exist to be able to detect it early on. So even though my symptoms were present physiologically, they couldn't see what was happening. So long story short, the doctors presumed I was faking it. And I remember overhearing the conversation between the doctor and my dad and the doctor saying these exact words to my Dad:“If her vision is as bad as she is saying it is, she's not even going to graduate high school.” I'll never forget it. I can almost audibly hear it when I think about it, but I think for some that would be crushing. Right? But for me, I'm like f ing, watch me. Right. So I think that personality is probably a big piece of it. Personal is a huge part of it. You're also doing what I or did, what I call the power of spite. And most people who, you know, are successful by their own means, they had somebody in their life or a moment in their life or a situation that was very similar to yours. And again, it could crush you. Or you can say, F-you, I'm going to prove you wrong. Yeah, right. And I always tell people, if I say spite is good, if it's used in a contained fashion, if you only live to prove everybody wrong, or if you live through spite, only you'll die prematurely because it's a very negative state of being. But in those moments, it's for it's it activates you. Yeah. Versus, you know, versus what's the word-- inhibiting you when you know, you feel, oh my God, they said these things about me. And again, so many children are, you know, being taught to be inhibited. Yeah. And so it is personality part of his personality. But then we ask, you know, is personality, are we born with it? Well, we're born with temperament and, you know, our surroundings, mostly our parents and other family members, they helped shape that personality. So it's not carved in stone, but some people, yes, they're going to just be born naturally with that sense of tenacity, hardiness, resilience, and others will learn to develop it. Right. So and again, never to to to make it overly simplistic. We always try to talk with nuance. There will be some people with limitations physical, mental, emotional, psychological, circumstantial that, you know, that that they may not be able to overcome. And we unfortunately, yeah, that's the way it is. Yeah, right. And but to assume that that's from the beginning, that's not helpful. Right? Right. And to have structures in place that allow for that, they don't that don't give the people the opportunity to see whether they might be able to flourish and progress in these circumstances. Right. And the topic of nuance, I think one's definition of success. Right. Needs to be defined early on in life. Right. Because you're 100% right. And we see it in our work all the time that there are vast differences in people's abilities and limitations and how those translate and present in everyday life. And that's fine. But individually, we need to define what is success, what do I want success to look like and do everything you can to meet that definition. Right? And I've said this in several podcasts, which to me success always has an element of fulfillment. You might not make the most money, you might not have the greatest status, you might not have the most amazing life that you want. But if you're able to have some sense of fulfillment that there's this, there's this purpose and that it feels rewarding, you know, and you've earned it yourself that I think by any definition is a good, you know, a good marker of success. Yeah. So as far as what we do with all of this, you know, I should I should have prefaced earlier that when we talk about our incredibly strong work ethic, we're not trying to present ourselves as superior or better, but that's what made sense within the context of our life and our goals and so on. So that's great. But with the understanding that everyone's life's a little bit different in some way, shape or form, I think broadly speaking, what people can do and should strive to do is again, first of all, define what is success and what does that look like in terms of fulfillment as well. And not to mention just being balanced. And we use this word a lot as far as balance that, you know, working 100 hours a week, you're going to burn out. That's that's not okay either. Working, you know, a couple hours a week here and there, if you feel like it certainly isn't good either. But finding what that balance looks like so that you can be healthy, so that you can engage in a healthy lifestyle because, you know, that sounds cliched, but it's so incredibly valuable, especially when the stakes are high, making sure that you're eating well and exercising and doing all the things that energize you so you can do difficult and fulfilling work. Right. And this is a tough sell for someone who's young. And if it's taken too far, it's not healthy. But if you're only living for yourself, which when you're young, that's all you're doing. Sure. Okay. But as you're getting older, even if you're a teenager, I've got teens that I work with where I, you know, I see them. Yeah. You know, look, when I was young, I was so selfish and self-absorbed and everything like that. I wish I had a purpose. I wasted a lot of time. I caught up much later, Right? So I try to get even young people, I say, I know it doesn't resonate right now. I say, But hear me now and I say, Just act as if pretend that this is real. I say again, you're not sacrificing yourself for others. You're not prioritizing them above, you know, before yourself, because that may not be healthy. But just to think that if I can achieve something, if I can accomplish something, and then I can contribute, whether it's to my family, to a partner, you know, to to sometimes to work depends, you know, But but, but, you know, to society or something like that. I say, I promise you later on you will feel so fulfilled. I say, it's just a promise right now. I say, But it's not it's not blind faith. I say, there's reality to it there. Science behind it. It's it's. It's fact. Yeah, right. And again, it's a tough sell, but you do that. And once again, I always say, remember, you never sacrifice yourself for others, but you use others as a motivation for you to do well for yourself and by yourself. Yes. Yeah. So and I'll just add then, because, like, you know, what do we do with this, right? Because again, not everyone’s going to be blessed with certain personality traits or temperament, not everyone's going to have the healthy upbringing right? Not everyone's going to be in the kinds of neighborhoods that have strong schools and that encourage things, you know, other sports or anything else like that. Not everyone is going to have that. So you said earlier about like, you know, like you have to know yourself to find success. And I say this almost every podcast, which is be honest with yourself, know your abilities, know your limitations. And Scott Dilbert, the creator of sorry, Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert, he said this I think he wrote this in his book, Loser Think. I think it was one of his books. He said that the worst advice people give is follow your passion. Okay. Is that That's dumb what he said. You know, what he said was fine. What? You're good at master it and you'll become passionate about it. Because that sense of mastery, Right? So if you want to if you have a passion, you can follow it for interest, you can follow it for something else. But to think that you're going to make a career of it, yeah, maybe you will. But if not this and this is the hard part again, when people are being raised, you know that they see all these other people who live in their greatest lives. Well, a recognize that most of that is B.S., right? It's illusion, it’s fantasy. And again, parents, it's your job to tell your kids that and to show that that and to, you know, make sure that they see with their own eyes, Oops, this is illusion. Yeah, right. And B, I was going with this one here. Oh, yes. So if you work hard, you can make you know, you can create a life for yourself where you can have maybe some of those things, but it comes at a cost. It's not just given to you. You've got to work for it. And again, even even if you're doing it for selfish and hedonistic reasons or whatever else like that, if that's the selling point, whatever the fact is, if it gets you to do something because it's a cliche, but you know, we thrive when we work hard. And again, I'm not talking about working yourself to the bone, but working hard. It's rewarding. It's fulfilling. And and we know this and and whether we're talking a thousand years ago with the writings of a thousand years ago or whether we're talking today, we see the effects. You see people who and this is actually is very interesting the people who are really active again, I'm not talking crazy active, just they're active that activity. They don't get tired. You can get tired and burnout. But but for the most part, if it's fulfilling, if there's meaning, if you see a sense for if it's for something greater than yourself, it fuels more activity. Okay. Right. Wehen I was doing my 80-100 hours a week? Yeah. I was not tired. Yeah, I was thrilled. Yeah. Yeah. I always say if you want something done, ask a busy person to do it. Because that industriousness that you're talking about when you're when you're busy and you're enjoying what you're doing, you find ways to do more. And again, not in an unhealthy way, but it's energizing. It really is. And so but but again, some people, that's just who they are. And for others, they need to have that model for them. They need to be encouraged. And sadly, school, in fact, kind of is the opposite of that. It sort of demotivates people because instead of doing it for a sense of fulfillment or achievement and so on, they're doing it to shut a teacher up, to shut a parent up, to get a grade, to compete with others. Those are all extrinsic. To get it over with and move on. To move on. Right. They're not getting that. They're not focusing on that intrinsic sense of, you know, of of accomplishment Yeah, right. So again, it's recognizing this and and if you're if you're a teenager, if you're in your twenties, thirties, whatever, realizing yeah, certain things I have to do that I don't want to do. All right. Whether it's for work, paycheck support, family, whatever it is, certain things, but I need to try to carve some time out for myself. Right. Where if I'm doing it, just if I'm, you know, just playing video games or whatever, just to recuperate, to de-stress, whatever, that's fine. But if I can try to sort of amalgamate that with something that might actually produce something maybe is better health. Yeah, maybe it's a new skill, you know, maybe it's meeting new people, going places, whatever it is, maybe making some money on the side or something like that. I layer it, you layer it with other benefits. Yeah, that's a way to help people to gain more motivation to work harder. Yes, absolutely. So I guess on that note, until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel. As much as we love listening to ourselves speak, especially me, we would love to hear from you as well. So our emails are in the description below. If you would, please write to us with your questions, feedback, comments, topics that you'd like us to cover. We can do this together, the two of us, but it's much better if we do it together. So we look forward to hearing from you. And we are going to have a segment called Table where we're going to discuss the feedback and the questions and so on from our audience. And we will we will take it to the next level. We're going to help you be able to deal with some of these issues that you might be bringing us or it's going to be a topic for us to explore together. And we really look forward to building a community, a community of like minded people who want to do right by others, not just for themselves.