And I certainly don't want to appear unempathetic in what I'm about to say, but I'm going to call bullshit on what you just said. As far as you know, it's, you know, they've never felt younger, they've never felt better, and so on and so forth. Too bad you made a commitment, right? We're not animals. Welcome to Awake at the Wheel. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about marriage, but more specifically, we're going to be speaking about something that is quite a bit more common than you may think, but also one of the most taboo subjects out there, and that's infidelity. Or and I in our clinical practices, often see couples come in for this reason. And it's one of those things where we find that until someone's in that position, they don't really know what to do with it. So, Oren, where should we start with infidelity? Well, I think first we should define what it is. Yeah, because I like human sexuality class. I talk about infidelity more than most other topics. And because I say that a lot of people don't. They don't even have a universal definition. Mm hmm. So the starting point is sexual versus emotional infidelity. And in the old days, if people say, well, sexual infidelity, that's real cheating. Emotional, eh, whatever. But research is really clear that emotional infidelity causes as much as, if not more damage to the person's well-being than . Sexual, they might be able to write it off. They might be able to differentiate the physical act from the love for the other person. But when someone's cheating on you emotionally, it's it feels like even a worse betrayal. And I want to add to that before you go on, because I think that those are the broad definitions. But nowadays with access to infidelity, the way that it is, emotional cheating can look so different. Is it a text message? Is it being on a dating app or not deleting one's dating app? It's it's such a broad spectrum of what that emotional cheating can now look like. And that's what I always tell my students as well. I say, So first of all, I'm going to give the audience some questions. I can't help it. Okay. So I say to everybody, I say, what? Above and beyond everything else, I say, What are the best predictors of whether someone's going to cheat or not? And I hear all these different answers and they're all good. But there are two answers that go together that you want to take a stab at it. It is above and beyond everything else that you would expect. I feel like I should know this as a therapist. And I I've heard so many different reasons. I don't know which ones to pick, but I would say many people think that it boils down to happiness. But that's not the case. They know that's not answering your question, but that's my answer.

“Really?” I go, Yeah, pragmatically speaking, think about it. So the two things I predict more than anything else, one and again, it might sound silly, but the fact is think about it. Opportunity. Yeah. If you don't have an opportunity to cheat, whether, you know, let's say during COVID, if you're with your partner all the time, yeah, it's harder to cheat and so on and as you said, with technology to date that has made opportunity more prevalent than ever before. So opportunities one and the second one is and again, people hate to hear it, but it's the belief that I can do it and get away with it. Yeah, but when by doing it, it means in the moment, if there's somebody there, let's say you're at a bar, you've had a few drinks where you think you can get that person. And if you think you can, you know, get away with it afterward. And whether it's a one time thing, whether it's a long term affair, because if someone doesn't believe that, they're less likely to do it. So and by the way, again, being able to get away with or do it once again, it's not just about being able to conceal from your partner is being successful in your attempt to cheat. So that's I'm going to tell you right now, people hate to hear it, but the fact is and I always say this, I actually had this conversation just a few days ago with a patient, a young, young man. I said everything we're talking about here. I said, I am not glorifying cheating because it could sound exactly like I saw the young man kind of said, Yeah, yeah, I know I can do it right, get away with it. And all these other people who are too afraid, yeah, they're not going to cheat. So I'm telling, right? No. Fact is, there's no evidence that humans are meant to be monogamous. There's no consistent evidence that as a species, that's our, you know, a way of of, you know, maybe. But to your point of can I get away with it, man, does that ever sound arrogant? But I think we need to go a layer deeper than that because can I get away with it? Well, why are people doing it? And I said it before and I'll say it again. You know, infidelity is a symptom of a greater problem. And furthermore, a couple a healthy couple is comprised of two healthy individuals. So generally speaking, you know that person who's looking to get away with it, what's missing in their life in particular, there might be issues with the relationship itself as well. But, you know, is there a loss of vitality? Is there something that they're looking to get, you know, through stepping out of the marriage and through, you know, feeling good about being able to get away with it? So I think there's a lot more to it than that arrogant statement perhaps sounds on the on the surface. Right. And you said something very important. You didn't just say what's wrong with the relationship. Yeah, right. Do people assume that? And there's some fascinating research. I say I've said this to patients who they it's for some of them it never feels great, but it sort of satisfies it a little bit. For others, it doesn't help what I say to them. The parts of the brain that are involved in a long term committed relationship, the prefrontal cortex, let's say that's different than the limbic system, the sensation seeking, the thrill seeking or the novelty seeking part of the brain. You know, the reward system. Those are two very different things. And they operate, you know, differentially. So both of them can be true at once or someone can be committed to someone, love them, want to spend the rest of the life with them. Yeah, but still want or need that excitement. And you and I will explore what those things are. Yeah, I want to say, I mean, the fact is, even though I want everyone to understand again, it's not glorifying in any way, it's devastating to the people, whether it's the person's children or the family. I have seen I've had hundreds and hundreds of reflection papers for my students over the last 20 years talking about how their life was ruined. Yeah, perception of relationships. Yeah. When a parent of these guys, they found out. Yeah, they saw the devastation. Did the, you know, to the to the other parent, to their situation. They even that money now so the hostility being used as pawns. So nothing I say no matter how they frame it. Yeah. Misconstrued by anybody as in any way encourage. Of course and yeah I will echo that. Certainly we are not encouraging infidelity in any way, but to tie together the two things that we said here, the beautiful thing about it is if a couple can successfully overcome it, they may even find that their relationship is healthier and better because they had to confront things head on that were being ignored and not spoken about before. Right. And in my practice, that's the minority of the people who could actually move forward from it. But I have had some couples. Yeah, they did actually grow from. Yeah. Because as you say, they confronted these things and they both they saw what was either missing in the relationship or what was lacking or faulty in themselves. And they grew as individuals and as a couple. So there can be some benefit. But if someone asks me how to improve my relationship, cheating is not. Certainly not. But this is interesting. So I think that we're at odds here in terms of the way that you see it and the way that I see it. And certainly you're right, the majority of people that are coming in for couples therapy, I won't even say the majority, but a large number, sometimes the problems are too far gone and therapy isn't necessarily going to help. But I've seen a number of examples where, you know, couples have truly grown, but it's that desire to want to make those changes and want to grow from it. So what do you think is stopping people from being able to? Because the research does support it, that if you're able to confront these things and able to, you know, kind of start from ground zero and build your way back up, you're going to have a healthier relationship than you did when you started. Right. Well, what stops one is oftentimes the party that cheated is just not invested in the relationship. Yeah, you know, they they appreciate it for what it is. They get something out of it, whether it's stability, whether it's the illusion of a family or the sense of a family, whatever it happens to be. But they just you know, they don't have that love or they fell out of love. Yeah. Or they feel, you know, I can have it all. So that's one. And the other time is more. I found more commonly and understandably so that the person who was cheated on that betrayal was too great to overcome. Yeah, because as we talked about, I believe in a different podcast about resentment. Mm hmm. The relationship cancer. Yeah. What more can cause resentment than to know that your partner cheated on you? Yeah. Whether sexually or emotionally. So the person is trying. And for some people, it's traumatic sometimes. Absolutely. Yeah. Or, you know, again, whether it's a sexual image or this idea that my partner was sharing intimate secrets. Right. Saying things to someone else that they never said to me and so on. Yeah. It's really, really hard. Well into the point of that trauma and the questions of like when and where and why and how and that can, you know, be maddening. Exactly. So it's a big ask. And the fact is, if someone cheated on you, if it's traumatizing, whether it literally traumatizing or, quote unquote traumatizing. Yeah. The fact is we know with trauma that similar cues can trigger the same reaction. So, yeah, if you're with that person, you see them every single day. You're lying in bed with them. You smell all this. You know, it can be a constant trigger for somebody to have either hyper vigilant, aroused, just never settled, never feel insecure. And as you said in a previous I think two previous podcasts, that for you know, for my money the best definition of love is a feeling that your partner's got your back no matter what the sense of security. And I certainly don't want to appear unempathetic in what I'm about to say, but I'm going to call bullshit on what you just said. As far as you know, it's, you know, they've never felt younger, they've never felt better, and so on and so forth. Yeah, nothing makes you feel more insecure than being cheated on, betrayed that way. Way we were talking a lot about that is how it makes people feel. But back to what we started with as far as, you know, what is the root cause of it? Many times it doesn't have to do with the person that was cheated on. Yes, they're the recipient of all that pain and all that trauma, but they're not necessarily insecure in that relationship, even though it's perceived that way. So what are your thoughts on that? Well, and what's going to sound like it is, you're saying what, like the arrogance factor? Yeah. And again, I've had numerous patients where hearing them talk and I don't judge because I get where they're coming from. Yeah. And it where they have had just recently, one of my patients was saying let's you say, look, men and women are wired differently. Yeah. Men. You know, we're hunters, We love the chase. And that by the way, having been raised by, you know, a very powerful woman, a woman who opened up the Ontario’s first sex store. Yeah. You know, hey, I'm not a shrinking violet when it comes to sex. Yeah, And B, I don't you know, even though I do believe men and women, we are wired differently. If a woman wants to be sexually empowered, she loves to be the hunter or whatever else. If she can do it and find fulfillment in it and it's healthy if it's a healthy way, all the power to her. So even though we may be wired differently on average, we also have libidos. We also have confidence. We also have avoidance of reality and so on. So those overlap between men and women. So I don't want to you know, I do want someone to oversimplify. Sure. Right. But I you know, I have spoken with many men who do say no, whether they say as the hunter, as the dog, as the man, whatever else, and that's just who they are. So whether it's ego, whether it's novelty seeking to get avoidance of I've had a lot of patients where it's avoidance. Yeah, it's not a sex addiction per se, but if school’s not going as well or work, or the family, maybe they're feeling a bit older. What better way to kind of make them feel more alive? And fact is, I always tell my students and patients that libido not just sex drive. Yeah, yeah. And what better way to feel alive than you know again to to to have your your sex drive just go full throttle. And by the way, I just I have several female patients who I it's incredible. And again, I'm not trying to glorify this trying to help people understand. Yeah. As you said at the beginning, it's far more common than people like to think, especially when we include the, you know, coial media, the texting. So I've had some female patients where I literally see them get younger when they step outside the marriage. Yeah, Yeah. So I’m not glorifying it. I can understand it. SO I’ve treated clients on both sides of the coin here, ones who have been cheated on, and ones who have done the cheating, and I certainly don’t want to appear on empathetic and what I’m about to say, but I’m going to call bullshit on what you just said. As far as you know, it’s, you know, they’ve never felt younger, they’ve never felt better, and so on and so forth. Yeah. So I've treated clients on both sides of the coin here, right. Ones who've been cheated on and those have had who have done the cheating. And I certainly don't want to appear on empathetic and what I'm about to say, but I'm going to call bullshit on what you just said. As far as you know, it's, you know, they've never felt younger, they've never felt better, and so on and so forth. Too bad you made a commitment, right? We're not animals. That's great that you know those biological needs were met. But when we make a commitment, there's responsibilities that come along with that. Right. And so now we I think we've talked about this before, where you are more you know, you're you have a religion that you, you know as part of your life. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So you see commitment differently than someone. Sure. Right. Yeah. You're not saying that you're, you know, that's afraid of God. No, no. But you, you know, you have a different way of thinking about. Yeah. The commitment is first you've committed to that one person, Right? And it's very easy for people to compartmentalize when they don't have, you know, a greater force above them. Right. It doesn't hold them to. Yeah. So it makes it easy to rationalize it and so on. So I'm telling you again, I'm saying I see them. I feel younger. Yeah. When you talk about the commitment, here's the thing. And again, I see this of judgment one way or the other. Yeah. If you have a partner that you've committed to. Yeah. And that person's checked out. They're not trying. They don't really. You know, you two have drifted apart, but you've committed to, let's say, keeping the family together. Yeah. The state of marriage. Yeah, but, you know, you're both unhappy inside of it and the person is going, I don't want to drown with this person. So, you know, I get. I can understand why that would step out. Yeah. Now, having said that, there was one person I was working with where it was very similar to what I just said. They had not had sex for a year. They didn't even sleep in the same bed. Right. And so he cheated on his wife and at one point when I was talking to you, I saying, but she says, well, if you want to call it that. I said, no it's not “I want to call it that”. That's what it's called. Yeah. He said we are but blah blah blah. I said no, no you did. I said I had you separated from her and you totally said no. So I said let's call it what it is. Yeah. So whenever I work with people who are either thinking about or have gone through or were cheating, I say at the very least you want to lie to your partner. Yeah, that's your decision. But you're not allowed to lie to yourself. You need to fully understand yourself why you're doing it so on. And again, it goes to the women as well. If they say, Look, I get I have a family, I don't want to break it up, whether, you know, for the kids say for whatever else like that they say, But again, I don't want to die. I want to stay. You know, I don't I'm feeling like I was dying and I'm feeling miserable and so on. And I tried everything. And sometimes I don't make the other partner taking the Yeah, yeah. Other times to be the person. It's like, Wow, no, this person really does want to make it work. And other times it's like, I can understand this person. They're just not going to do it. Yeah. Are they going to treat like crap or something? Yeah. So I think an important message here is that frankly, no couple is immune to infidelity, right? People think, well, that would never happen to me. But let's talk a little bit about, you know, some of the things that can inoculate couples from it or at least help prevent or prevent it from happening and strengthen the relationship. So we've talked a lot before about amongst ourselves, at least not in the podcast, about love languages and the importance of ensuring that you understand your partner's love language and you're delivering love in the way that makes sense to them is basically what it is. So should we talk about the five love languages to start out with here? Yeah, so go ahead. Okay, so we have gift giving. And by the way, I tell people this is not the only thing you know, there's this not the best, I don't think. But it's a it's a it's a common language. People can use it. So you got your gift giving. You have your acts of service, physical touch, quality time and words of affirmation. And I always tell my students and patients, I asked them, I say, which of those five do you think is the most ambiguous or the most problematic? What would you say? I would say physical touch. Ambiguous. Really? Oh. No. I guess that's the wrong answer. Yes. Quality time. Okay. Yeah. And it's you think about it and this happens all the time. So I ask couples and so I say, you know, like, what would you call quality time on? The person says, well, you know, at night we're in bed, we're watching TV together. Right? Right now we're just sitting on TV. It's not quality time. So it's amazing that you're doing the same thing. Yeah. And you have such a different interpretation. But I'll clarify then where my thought on ambiguity with physical touch comes from. Because some say physical touch means sex, and others mean it's hand holding, it's sitting close together and so on. So I think there's ambiguity there too. Sure. Yeah. Okay. But so just having those languages is not actually understand what's right. Yeah. Yeah. And here's the thing. I tell people this. I can't believe that the website and why am I getting money from this website? I can't believe that they don't tell people to do this. I recommend people to go to the website. Five. Yeah, everyone calls it the language of love. Those five love language. Yeah, right. It is number five love languages. Yeah. And I say do the quiz is free. Yeah. For yourself and then for your partner. Yeah. And your partner does the same thing. And you sit down. Yeah. It’s not a competition, it’s to collaborate, right? It's interesting. Sometimes people like, Wow, I had no idea. I just had a Yes, we got it right. Yeah. So it's a fun. It is. Yeah. Yeah. But that being said, I don't think, as you said, enough people do it or understand it. Right. Or know the nuance of what that language is and how to speak that language to their partner. So it's one thing to know it. It's another to really, you know, robustly act it out in a way that makes sense to one's partner. Right. And to be adaptable because. Yeah, let's say gift giving for example. Mhm. So I know some couples where for one person like for me that's not relevant at all. My love language is not that my mind is really access service. That's the biggest one. Likewise. Okay, I love physical touch but the other one. Yeah. By the way, if you do the quiz, it's, you know, it's forced choice, right? For people who have this, questions I like would you rather partner to A or B? Neither. Okay, so it can be frustrating. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but whereas with that. Oh yes. Gift giving. So for some people that's really important. Yeah. And for the other person it's like either philosophically they just, they're against it. Yeah. Humanism and everything like that. Right. Or psychological or just maybe they're cheap, whatever else. Like that. Yeah. So you got to be adaptable because just because the person doesn't give you this lavish gift that you want, right? It doesn't mean they don't love you. Right? Talk about it. Yeah. Figure it out. And again, if you're really into gift giving and the other person really isn't. Yeah, there's got to be some compromise. Yeah, I in therapy often use the example of maybe you're familiar with this example from The Simpsons. It's a really old episode of The Simpsons where Homer sees this this fabulous bowling ball and he ends up buying it for Marge for her birthday. And the sheer disappointment on Marge’s face, I think is such a great example or description of exactly what you're saying, where just because one person thinks it's a great gift and my partner is going to love it, that's not necessarily true. Right? And conversely, I do remember that episode as one of the greatest jokes ever. But the the converse is that if someone, you know, gives what they thought was a really nice good Yeah. Or they made it or something and the other person's like, well that's not good enough. Yeah, yeah. I just thought yeah, yeah. Let's, let's guide them. Yeah. To, you know, to, to be more in line with what your No. One are. Very few people are going to do what you want willingly if you break them and make them feel less than. Yeah. And to go back to what we spoke about in our previous podcast about marriage communication is is really key there, right? So in the early stages of relationships, I think there's a lot of desire, Oh, you know, I wish my partner just knew what I wanted or needed and so on. But it's actually the, the opposite. The more we communicate and the more clearly we communicate early in the relationship, the more our partner is going to be able to anticipate those needs. And again, know that nuance of what we need. Right, Exactly. And again, go back to adapting communication and adapting. Yeah. And someone who's not willing to do that, either the communication or the. Yeah, I mean, that's not a really feasible healthy relationship. Yeah. Now I want to shift gears for a second only because part of the earlier conversation we're having I'm going to throw this out at you and see what you have to say. Yeah, we don't talk about this beforehand, so yeah, imagine I I'll use you. Okay. So imagine that you were in a situation where you did cheat on your husband and it was a one time thing and it would never happen again for whatever reason that happened. And there's no way you would ever find the person to even know you was a different country, used false I.D. or whatever. There's no cameras, right? Absolutely No risk of pregnancy, no risk of sexually transmitted infections. No way of anyone ever knowing. Yeah. Would you tell your husband. So I know the answer to this. I know from your book that I've read this and I actually share the opinion. So my true answer is, if I were to unload that burden on my partner, that would be selfish. And the only reason that one would do that is because that that secret in that lie is eating away at them to unload that on to somebody else there. There's there's a lot of issues that come along with that. Right. Exactly. And people say, no, you're being a good person. And no, you're just rationalizing. Yeah. You're you're unloading the guilt on it. That's not their burden to carry. Yeah. And as you said earlier, that until you're in that situation. Yeah. You don't know. And I've had many patients who admitted they said look beforehand I thought I would want to know. I didn't want to know or. Just the fallout that comes from it. Yeah, yeah. It's, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not to glorify or to excuse cheating or lying. No, not to promote lies at all by any means. Yeah. But it's understanding. That's where, you know, we've talked about several podcasts about knowing yourself being true to yourself. Yeah. And if you want to say, look, you know, I want to be a scumbag or I want to be selfish or whatever, at least on it. Yeah. On the other hand, if you want to try to be a good person, try to mitigate the damage that you could potentially doing. Yeah, right. There's a point where you have to put the other person ahead of you. You didn't do it when you were, you know, with the other. You know this for sure. But now afterward, put that person don't rationalize, don't make excuses to yourself, and it don't hurt them any more than you already potentially have. Yeah, or could have. But I think a really important piece to add to that is if one chooses to bear that burden themself, I think there needs to be a lot of introspection about why did that happen? How do I ensure that doesn't happen again? Because I can see, you know, the desire to keep that lie to oneself as permission to do it again. Well, they didn't find it before. Well, they will find out again. Yeah. You're reinforcing the behavior. Yeah. And also, by the way, just think about lying. If you've had a one time affair or any type of infidelity, there's one exception. And I always tell people that if the other person knows. Yeah. Or somehow they really there's something happened. If you lie to them now, you're gaslighting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's worse. Yeah. And you, if you lie to yourself, they don't. I'm protected. No, you're not. No. Gaslighting is the worst thing to do, is literally make some crazy. When we're talking about the why people did it, there's something before that even. Yeah. Which is so I've had many patients who have thought about cheating someone at work or at school or neighbor or something like that, and they're thinking about it. And I take a very pragmatic approach and I tell this. And when I work with couples where one person was working through the first and then they bring their partner finds out, they take this pragmatic approach, yeah, they're often very upset with me. They said, Why don't you just tell them it's wrong? Why didn't you tell them not to do it or whatever? And I always ask the patient that I was work with previously. The one who cheated. Yeah. I said, What would have happened if I had said to you, don't do it. Yeah. You would have walked out. Yeah. We're not the moral police right? That's not our role. Exactly. Yeah. And by the way, we have I know colleagues who have done that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so again, I didn't, I don't encourage it, but we have an honest value judgment. Yeah. So pragmatically speaking, I always ask the person, I say, if you were to cheat a simple question, I say a you know, can you, you think you can get away with it and B, can you contain the guilt? Mm hmm. And those two kind of go together because if they can't contain the guilt, it's going to come out in certain ways. And I've had many people do where they either the patient have cheated or I'm working with the person who's been cheated on. And the person thought they were so smooth, they thought they had got away with it or the person No, no one knew the other person do in many cases, or they really strongly suspect it. So I say those two things and if the person says no to one of them, the guilt would get me. Yeah, I don't know if I could contain it or whatever I say. Then why we've been talking about this. Yeah, I said, If you want to fantasize about somebody, let's see at work. Yeah, go ahead. Fantasize all you want. You can even fantasize with this person while you're with your partner for sex. I don't care. But I say if you are, let's say, ruminating about them. Yeah, right. I say, here's the crazy thing that happens. And apropos of something we talked about in a previous podcast, when I say crazy, I'm using a very loosely, a very colloquially to someone. If anyone has any concern with that, please check out the previous previous podcasts where we explain why we use that term. Yeah, this is going to sound really crazy, but the person who wants to cheat, they suddenly start resenting their partner. Why? Because they think if not for that right. I'd be free to do whatever I want and be with that person. Yeah, and I say that so yeah, out of that. Yeah. Like I say that it makes no sense if you get them for something legitimate. Let's talk. Yeah. Yeah. But for that reason. Yeah. So number one. And number two, I say if you either even if you don't resent them, but you're really caught up on this other person, you don't just continue to fantasizing. Yeah, you're always thinking about them and maybe you're reaching out to them at work or texting or. And you haven't crossed the line because you too afraid or you don't know how. And by saying to a friend about break you. Know it's or you you've decided that that's not the right thing to do. Why not go with it? You know, because if they decide it's not the right thing to do, then it's easier that they've accepted it. They can move forward. I'm saying they're still stuck. Yeah, It's like they're really struggling with it. Okay, so maybe they sort of decided it, but they're not fully committed. Yeah, right. They're stuck in limbo. Yeah, I say in that limbo, I say you're. I don't care how you pretend at home you're disconnecting from. Yeah. Your partner. Yeah. Kids, whatever. And again, sometimes you'll feel it because either their resentment, like I said, or you're stuck in your head. Yeah. This person, you can't be present with the person that if the relationship has a 5% problem, it's going to keep growing and growing and growing. But if you're present, even if it's a 95% problem, that the relationship, you can work on it. Yeah, right. So I tell you, I say basically shit. Or get off the pot. Yeah, yeah. I see you have to make a decision one way or the other. Either you either commit to your partner, realize that there's a commitment that you made. Yeah. Everything in your power to make yourself and your partner happy or cheat and be prepared for the consequences. Yeah. Break up with a partner or. And we'll talk about it in another podcast. Try to open up the relationship and we'll talk about how that's usually a disaster. Okay? But again, stop being in fantasy land. Be on the ground. Yeah. Look at what's real. Look at reality and deal with reality. Yeah. And I really want to emphasize part of what you said. There were an important step there is for the individual to determine, well, why am I having these thoughts? Because thoughts pop in and out of our head all the time. But as you mentioned, if someone's ruminating and fixated on this, well, it's a symptom of something going on in the relationship. And that said, you know, I think a challenge with relationships these days is that we think that our partner has to be our everything, right. So it's not unnatural to think, well, you know, wouldn't this person be great at fulfilling this need and that and so on. But, you know, on a broader scale, if one is thinking that much about stepping out of the relationship, well, what's actually going on with the relationship? Right. And what you say about the partner can't be everything. Yeah. Here's the most unfair thing. And once again, I tell this to patients because I want them to make whatever decision they make. I'm not going to tell them which way to go, set my place, but I want them to do it based on reality. And I say, that person that you're thinking about or that maybe you started something with, they have the unfair advantage of your partner because you get to see them in the best light. Yeah, you see them one day here are triple now or something and your partner is the one who has to go through all this long of slogging, slogging through, slogging through a sorry, slog through like, yeah, all this other stuff. You just get the best version. Yeah. Yeah. That's fantasy. Yeah, right. That's not fair to your partner. That's not reality. So I say that you got to be realistic in that regard. Yeah. Yeah. And to that point, they, you know, forget that that person they're attracted to outside of marriage has flaws too, and, you know, has a whole other life that you're not seeing. Right. And I've recommended to a lot of people to watch this one movie. It's funny. Wait till I see. Do they go? It's got a bunch of nobodies. But I tell them they think, you know, wicked. And here's all these famous actors that I guess I didn't know. It's called Drinking Buddies. Okay? And so they want to watch it drinking Buddies. And I won't get too much into it, but it shows two different relationships. It's and I'm not going to give any plots away. But there's a man who's in a I think he's married or in a long term relationship is his wife or girlfriend. And he has a coworkers, a female, and they're buddies. They're you know, they work in a beer factory. And so watching the development of these two different relationships, yeah, I think it's done pretty well where you're seeing, you know, and again, you see the fantasy and all this other stuff and she's got, you know, traits that the other one doesn't have and again, are not going to give anything away. But I thought it really highlighted there's a certain scene in the movie where that really showed the male character what's important to him, what his partner brings to him. And so that's what you're saying earlier about, you know, you to know why you're in a relationship. Yeah. You know, what? Are you getting out of it? Yeah. What are you bringing to it? Yeah, you know, and, and again, people compartmentalize, they rationalize whatever else like that. But if you sit down and you look at it all, it will give you a better ability to make a good decision whenever that decision is. And that decision might be, hey, we know we're not compatible anymore, who knows? So What do you think about these marriages that last 50, 60, 70 years sometimes? What do you what do you think their secret is and what do you think is happening as far as these days? It's not translating to that same level of longevity. I guess I'll add my $0.02. First is I think that there I mentioned commitment. I think that commitment level is certainly lower and we have this illusion of choice now, right? Especially with dating apps. Right. In seconds, one can have an entire menu of individuals to pick from. So I think that's a piece of it. But I also think that there's there's more to it and I'm not quite sure what that is. There's a change in values towards marriage that we've spoken about before, but I'm a little perplexed as far as, you know, what's what's changed? Well, you mentioned one of them. Okay. And in another episode, we're going to talk about something I discovered was doing research for a book I was writing on relationships when the app started coming out throughout 2012, 2013, it changed everything because before then I was saying that even with online dating, so like with like with computer dating. So it was before phone apps. It was just like, you know, Match.com, right? Fish I said it was like the example I always give is like going to Best Buy and or Future Shop at the time and try to buy a computer or a laptop. You can line up five or ten laptops with all the specs. Compare that and people were doing that with others. Yeah, Yeah. And it just seemed, as you said, I just swipe, swipe. Yeah. You know, and before the swiping just, you know, the way it was set up, I said that was bad enough as soon as I saw the swiping. Yeah. I said we're doomed. Yeah. Because it gave people this sense that there's always somebody better. Yeah. Yeah, right. And guess what? There always is somebody better. Yeah, but a they may not be available or be if they're so good they may not want. You want. That too. Yeah. So goes back to being realistic. Yeah. And I'm see I'm telling you that when I was doing my research the, you know, it's because talking to people, I was asking like, why did you leave the other person? Why did you make this dating into, like a more serious relationship? The reasons they were giving were the stupidest reasons they were so superficial because once again, there's this belief that there's so much out there for me, and here's the most, most important part. And it's the shift of society we've seen in the last generation or so. Well before I Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And this is where, you know Yes. What the long term couples there's, there is a commitment and it's you know is to the other person is to the relationship, is to the idea of marriage or longer you know a relationship and there's usually something above them. There's something again whether it's in the family just wanting to have someone's back, whatever it is, and there's just not that sense anymore. Therefore. There's far less of it. Yeah. Yeah. And you asked what was the secret? Well, again, religion is one of them. And sometimes it's not for the best, right? Some people. True. Yeah. Yeah. Or society or culture I of them all together years and years ago is it was a British study or is a British show that talked about a study and they were looking at all these couples who had you know stayed together and guess what and I was a British it's funny because people hear this, they get it. Yeah. They said, what's the biggest the common factor among the couples that stayed together? There's one simple behavior in British, British. Thinking something along the lines of manners or being proper. Am I on the right track? Sort of off. That is the one simple behavior. It's one behavior. It's a one time thing you do once a day or three times a day. Meals together?. Close. It was that again, this was the most common factor they found among these couples. Yeah. That one person, you know, would make the other person tea. yeah, yeah, yeah. It just shows. I'm thinking about you. Yeah, yeah. And I've actually read actually, there's some studies that suggest if the partner's getting the morning coffee for their partner in the morning, there's, there's just this, this warmth that comes along with it and adds stability and that feeling of, you know, I've got your back and I'm thinking of you. Yeah. So that translates to, you know, our society, even though we don't have tea three times a day. Yeah, right. But in today's society, right. It's so much about me. Yeah. I think about yourself being self-absorbed. So again, just doing something. Yeah, Yeah. You know, there's the old saying about never go to bed angry. Mm hmm. Well, good luck with that. Yeah, it's a great idea. Yeah, that's hard to maintain. And, you know, again, in today's society, more than ever before, and I don't blame the kids because they were raised this way. Yeah. It's all about the now. Mm. It's not about the long term. Right. Yeah. In the States at least I don't have the stats for Canada or the States. The, the plan to either be in a long term relationship to get married or have kids is at the lowest levels ever. Like we're talking really, really low levels because people aren't thinking about that, whether it's because they think why would it be a child of this terrible world or I don't have the money to do it, or I like to have fun. I like my independence, I like. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And by the way, I'm going to just sort of cross over into other podcasts we've talked about. There was a study that was done a number of years ago. It was in Canada and and I've seen it with my patients where so many men hate to put on men, but so many young men, they are content not with a career, they're content with just some kind of jobs, enough just to make enough money so that they can pay for the hedonistic pleasures. Usually video games, they might go well once or twice a month, maybe have a vacation once, twice a year. Yeah, right. And how are they able to do it? How can they afford the part time job and only work enough hours to pay the stuff or they're in game purchases? Well, they live. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're living at home, right, you're not taking those natural steps to become independent. Be strong. You said earlier you want to be in a healthy relationship. Yeah, Healthy and strong for the better yourself. Yeah. If you're living at home, Mom, do laundry, whatever. It's not going to happen. It's not going. Yeah, stunted growth. And I don't see the same thing with women. I see women you get young women in their twenties, early thirties on average. Of course, I would generalize about that. Far more young women who are like trying to get their act together. Yeah. To settle down at some point. Okay. Because a lot of men can be watching this. See? What, Are you crazy? Yeah, I see their twenties. All they want to do is get their kill count really high, out with men. Yeah. You know, this is we talked about in another podcast with Andrew Tate, and that fosters this or fuels this. Andrew Tate mentality of this. Women only want to drive drama. You know all these things out of me. Yeah, why would I do that? That's an unhealthy. Mm. Yeah. The mentality that prevents you from committing to somebody or feeling committed. And if you don't feel committed to somebody but you're in a relationship with them, it's much easier to cheat. Yeah. Yeah. Whoo! Okay, so what do people do with all of this? Because, like, I start out with, this is one of the most common problems yet least talked about problems, relationships as far as, you know, higher level. I think that, you know, again, focusing on what do you want, what are your values, what do you want into this relationship that's going to be really important in establishing that common degree of values amongst the couple is really important, but that's not necessarily going to make it infidelity proof. So what do you think? What can people do? Well, again, nothing can make something infidelity proof. No, Right. There's always that risk. It's going in there. Not assuming that risk, which in today's world, a lot of people just assume that it's going to happen, sadly. Right. So it's not settling, knowing your value. Yeah. You know, if you're with somebody I've said this to some patients where they have this partner who's like way above their weight class, okay? And I don't just mean about look all these things and it's like, why would you want to leave them? If you want to be in a good relationship, this person, you'll never do better than them. So being realistic and because unfortunately with social media today, people have such an unrealistic view, again, there's always somebody better, right? I'm going to get it. Yeah, well, we get not likely. Or maybe it's possible, but don't don't assume that. Yeah. So as you said earlier about the shared values and so on, knowing what is fulfilling for you and also knowing like, are you ready to settle down. Yeah. And again, with in today's world it's so scary because with dating apps and so on, it's hard to find somebody who says, Yeah, you know what? I'm willing to put aside all these other potential people and try to make it work with you. The days right when you were seeing some of that, you were starting to feel a bit serious with. You naturally started becoming exclusive in today's world. That happens much, much, much later. Yeah. Yeah. To see if you're really compatible with somebody, if there's somebody that you can really start a new life, like a life together with. Well, each of you is dating or seeing several other people at the same time. Yeah, right. So it's having the, the courage to have the difficult discussions with the person that you're with, not shoot. Of course, on the first date you don't want to talk about marriage. Yeah live. But again, not lying to yourself being honest and saying is this the person that I do want to have these discussions with? And if they are, I better start having them sooner rather than later and not be afraid. Because I've had couples where they I think I've talked about the previous podcast. They have even talked about whether they want a children. Yeah yeah they're pretty far it but yeah again just be realistic and be prudent and. Be clear. And be clear. Yes. And again, know that there's no guarantee and if something is going wrong in life in a different area of your life, it's not necessarily the relationship or something feels like it's yeah, you can take the easy route, you can cheat, you can do this or you can find other ways to fulfill you. And I've said that in previous podcasts, that sense of fulfillment. Yeah, if you're able to get it, if you're able to direct your attention towards something that might make you feel more of a man or more of a woman. More of a whole human being. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you want to commit to the partner, then those are the things that you do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So with that, until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel. As much as we love listening to ourselves speak, especially me, we would love to hear from you as well. So our emails are in the description below. If you would, please write to us with your questions, feedback, comments, topics that you'd like us to cover. We can do this together. The two of us, but it's much better if we do it together. So we look forward to hearing from you. And we are going to have a segment called Roundtable where we're going to discuss the the feedback and the questions and so on from our audience. And we will we will take it to the next level. We're going to help you be able to deal with some of these issues that you might be bringing us or it's going to be a topic for us to explore together. 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