And so when you think about I'm going to have to put another layer to it, but it's now, let's say, a foreign actor, It's an adversary using this medium to literally brainwash children Welcome to Awake at the Wheel. In this episode, we're going to be discussing social media. We're going to talk about the positives and the negatives as we do try to look at both sides of things. And I'll start off with acknowledging right off the bat the hypocrisy potentially of what we're talking about with being posted on YouTube and social media. But I think that there are some real concerns that are arising and emerging with respect to social media usage amongst children, adolescents and adults. So, Oren, where should we begin with this? Well, let's start with something that was, let's say, equivocal a number of years ago, which was the research the early research showed that there was a correlation. Now start off. It's just a correlation. And people say, well, correlation does not necessarily equal causation. My favorite saying. Right. And which is valid. But the correlation was between people with, let's say, more depression or anxiety, spending more time on social media. Mm hmm. So the question was, are they, let's say, socially anxious so they feel more comfortable online? Mm hmm. Or is being online too much leading to, you know, enhanced anxiety. Yeah. Or is it a chicken/egg type of thing? Right. Maybe to start with that, because I think the evidence is now clear. The research has shown, I think unequivocally. Mm hmm. That truly being online does predict worse mental health outcomes. Not for everybody, but it does. For many. And I think even the mentally healthy would agree that there is a great deal of of pressure, I suppose that arises from exposure to social media. And specifically what I'm thinking about is even people amongst our age demographic, this constant comparison of, you know, what people are posting on, I guess old people like us who use Facebook. So what are people posting on Facebook? And, you know, they they're only posting the highlight reel of their life. And even though I think the majority of adults or at least a high volume of adults can acknowledge that bias, despite that, it's still difficult to reconcile and overcome. And furthermore, we know that there's research that tells us about the dopamine rush that you get from likes. Right. So that's another piece of the puzzle here where I think that's really messing with people's mental health, for lack of a better way of putting it right. And just because of a little language, and we even did a podcast about that! Yes. Just so somebody doesn't criticize us for talking about the dopamine. Yeah. Dopamine is not associated with the pleasure. Dopamine is that reinforcer. Yes. It’s the reward, it tells you if there's something that's good for you or that makes you feel good, keep going after it. Yes, exactly. Right. So the the pleasure that you get is being reinforced and you're going after more and more and more. Right. It's. I did this thing that made me feel good, which is posting and now it's being reinforced with these likes. Right. And that’s what dopamine does it orients to it and just keep getting it. Yeah. And nobody's immune to that. Unless you have deficient dopamine receptors. Right. And some people are more susceptible to it than others, especially young people. And but yet even older people as well. So we have to acknowledge the potential pernicious effects of social media and this desperate seeking of, as we say, likes. But the reality is it's validation simply put. Yeah. Yeah. From strangers. Mm hmm. Validation from, you know, they see the vast majority of whom you will never meet and many of whom you probably would not want to meet, yet you. You care. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what you said about, like, you know, this the other fascinating thing, which is that people know I'm going to liken this to professional wrestling or magic, either one where, you know, it's not real. Now, for all the wrestling fans. I will say that I understand that the injuries that people sustained and the athletics, everything. That's all real. Just to be clear, I fully respect wrestlers. I know several. I fully respect them. But the fact is, when people get immersed in the drama and the storylines, yeah, you know, they know that it's not real. There's an element of acting to. It. It's acting, you know, even in the drama. Mm hmm. But the feeling that you get when you're immersed in it. Mm hmm. It's. It's rewarding. Yeah, More of it. Yeah. So you're saying that we know intellectually. Yeah. That people are posting only the best parts of the vacation? Mm hmm. Like that. But still, there's a part of our mind that says no, but I want that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's the same as the. This has been around for so many years where we talk about photoshopping. Mm hmm. Models. And this is even before the Internet. Yeah. The airbrush. Exactly hit. This. Yet still people saw that. That I want that. Yeah. Like that? I feel terrible that I'm not like that. Yeah. Knowing it does not prevent the impact. Right. So if adults whose brains are fully developed aren't able to reconcile that discrepancy, what on earth are kids supposed to do? And I'm aware of, at least to some, I'm sure there are more, but there are lawsuits that are actually being launched against these social media giants accusing them or stating, at least in their their statement of claim, that these companies are fully aware of what they're doing and they are purposefully marketing to children. So there's there's a lot to unpack there as far as we know that children can't manage it because, frankly, adults can't. And yet these companies are in a predatory fashion marketing to children. Right. And we also know that especially with TikTok they have what's called-Ithink it’s called the heat button. Yeah. That they're able to boost certain messages, certain videos. Certain. Mm hmm. Agenda. Yeah. Right. And so when you think about I'm going to have to put another layer to it, but it's now, let's say, a foreign actor, It's an adversary using this medium to literally brainwash children or adults. Yeah. Yeah. The ability to do that. So, you know, we're not fearmongers. And what was it was the social dilemma. It was a movie. It was a fictionalized. They could they made it it was a documentary, but they made it into a movie. A story. Mm hmm. And they were following some people. Right. And social media and I and some of the people on it. I've seen them on podcasts, and they speak so eloquently, frighteningly about what is actually happening behind the curtain. Right. They know best because they are the engineers. Yeah. They know what they're doing. Yeah. Everybody's looking back. I mean, this might be hyperbolic, but this is this has been on for years that they all say, I only carry a flip phone and I won’t let my kids have anything other than a flip phone because they understand just how pernicious this smartphone technology is. Absolutely. And as you know, my husband works in the technology field and is very aware of these things as well. And as such, our son does not have access to social media, which I'll say that's all well and good. And we do monitor, you know, what he does have access to, and we're very prudent about it. But we can't control what happens at school. Kids are bringing their their phones to school. Kids are sharing, you know, what they they're seeing online. So despite our best efforts were also not naive. And we understand that kids are going to be exposed to this whether we like it or not. Right. And I know you and your husband and I know that even though you know this is inevitable. Mm hmm. Exposed. You're not just throwing up your hands and saying, well, what can we know? Right. You're still that filter through which your son is interpreting. Yeah. Perceiving and interpreting. Processing. But so far, too many parents, they just throw up their hands, say, Well, what can I do? Yeah. One of the reasons that they themselves are immersed in this same poison technology. And you say poison technology. And I think we again, maybe sound like fearmongers, but truly, the research supports what we're saying, that it's it's not good. It's not great what's happening. But let's look at the positive aspect of it. We spoke before about the COVID pandemic in the way in which it isolated us and and, you know, divided people. But it did also bring people together. So it's this wonderful thing where we are still able to, you know, share our lives with one another and connect with people and sometimes I think, have meaningful connections with people. So it's not all bad. Would you agree? Well, yes. And normally, at the end of the podcast, we talk about what can you do? Yeah, I mean, say right now what you just said, which is what I was asked on the media many times, or what we do with this in the early days. Yeah. Before we even knew how bad it was. But I could see what was happening. I told people, I said, Don't be a passive recipient. Mm hmm. Yeah. If you want to make good, proactive, let's say, beneficial use of social media. Mm hmm. Be active. Don't just look at other people's posts. Yeah. Reach out to people. Talk to people. Yeah. Share your own experience. Mm hmm. You know, like. Hey, here's the latest dump I just took up. Substantial. Yeah. You know, But having said that, of course I try to be careful. Mm hmm. The thing with social media or any type of electronic communication is the legitimate fear that somebody can hack. Somebody can get it. Sure. You don't want expose yourself? Yeah. As you were saying, especially with with COVID, as we talked about in the previous point. Mm hmm. Social media story will be the social media or any type of electronic communication. Yeah. Allows us to reach out around the world. Mm hmm. More than ever before, Especially with the video technology, right? That was the boom, I'm old enough to say I actually. I don't remember Dick Tracy. I think very, very Dick Tracy. As if. As a comic. Yeah, I was into other comics, but I was aware that I saw the movie. Okay, so the idea of, like, having a phone on the wrist. Yeah, That's future technology. Yeah. But the reality is, being able to communicate like that with screens. Mm hmm. Yeah. Can be very positive. Right. Yeah. It's not as good. It's not even close to as good as face to face. Mm hmm. Yeah. But. But it's the next best thing in many ways. Yeah. And even in our profession, with delivering therapy, it's, you know, the tools that we impart on each other are the same, whether we're face to face or online. So, you know, it gives people a lot more access to a lot more things. So certainly positive in that regard. But I'll go back to the negative here because, you know, back to things like isolation and communication, connection and so on and so forth, a phenomenon that seems to be happening a lot is ghosting. And you alluded to this earlier as far as, you know, the anonymity that people have when they're when they're online and people commenting or liking or whatever the case may be, you may not even know that person. But even with people that we do know, I don't know if it's a loss of etiquette or if it is that anonymity or that space that's placed between us, you know, that doesn't exist in face to face interactions. But there is new research emerging that there are actual real psychological consequences that come from that triggering one's rejection sensitivity is is a big piece of it. And another one is not really understanding how to read social cues. There isn't a road map for this, just like many things. But there there really isn't. So the way in which somebody communicates and interacts and behaves online doesn't necessarily mirror the way that we would read those cues in person. Right. I got to tell you, first of all, in one of my books that will be coming out at some point in the future, I talk about ghosting and I say it's one of the most evil things you can do, that's become normalized. Mm hmm. What a hyperbolic statement. No, but it is. Yeah. And so I say this to my students. I say to my patients, let me say two things here. Where I see ghosting, I see if the person the other person has not done anything wrong to you. They were not rude anyways. They got to suddenly just go out of the blue and you said it can trigger the rejection, says, you know, sensitivity. But the other thing it does is if the person like it seem like a perfectly fine date. Yeah. And now suddenly they ghosted me. Right. That's confusing as. Heck. It's. It's confusing, it anxiety they ruminate, and they play it out what happened, What happened and has no way to reach the other person. Yeah, it's distressing. The sense of helplessness which eventually can lead to hopelessness. Yeah. And that's why I say it can be so evil. And, you know, the response of so many young people is when I say that to them. It's not a big deal. Well, it's it's it's it's even more they're just it's I don't want to shit on all the young people. Oh, yeah. They go “I don't owe them anything”. And that's bullshit. Like because yes, we do as human beings, we owe each other the respect, whether it's online communication or in person. That's our responsibility. Exactly. And if all of your communication was in person, very few people would have such a lack of respect. Have the gall to do that. Yeah. I would walk away without saying anything and just, you know. No. No. Right. But with online is to. To create that barrier. Right. And again, I just want to be clear if the other person has done you wrong. If they’ve been totally disrespectful. Rude, whatever else. No, you don't owe them your time. Right. You should set up the boundary. But absent that, to not even say, Hey, I'm really sorry, but. Okay. Right. Because regardless, if you're disrespected, disrespecting in return isn't the answer. Exactly. Yeah. Again, but if a person has been really, really. Again, if they. If they crossed a line. Mm hmm. I don't mind them ghosting. Okay. If they get if they've truly crossed a line. But again, that's a pretty high threshold, if anything other than that. Yeah, we see him in the story, too. Yeah. And in dating. Sure. But I think in any other relationship or interaction, you know, we don't owe anybody something. But as decent human beings, it's the it's the responsible, respectful thing to do. Even if you're cutting off communication, letting the other person know, okay, we're done. Right. I mean, that's the social contract. Yeah. When you engage with somebody else, there are certain expectations. Yeah. And I've I've said this many times, my classes and in my book, which is I believe that my patience is funny because whether we're talking about ghosting or any other type of, let's say, a deficit in etiquette in consideration for other people, it seems that my patients are the few people who are let's say they maintain the old decorum. Mm hmm. And I think that's one of the reasons they come to therapy. Oh, and I've seen the same. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They see me as if I. Am I crazy? I want to go. No, no, no. You are a decent person Right. The people who whether it's showing--sorry, whether it's ghosting or. Yeah. Because you're so used to being able to just, you know, let's say, just get rid of them, Delete. Whatever else like that, when you have in-person communications or engagements. Yeah. I've seen so many people who show up an hour late saying nothing. Oh, oh, oh, sorry. And then the other person's like, Well, okay. And then they suddenly we say, Wait, why are you getting angry? Mm hmm. You're the one who just wasted a person’s hour, Yeah. They were a bit upset, and instead of having any empathy... There's entitlement. There's entitlement. Yeah. Now they're the victim. Yeah. And I've seen this happen more and more with you. With young people and becoming part of the culture. Right. Yeah. And I do attribute a lot of this to social media, because, again, there's no repercussion if you and I are having a face to face discussion. Yeah. I say something that’s offensive or hurtful or just wrong. And I see your reaction. Consciously, unconsciously, I am seeing your cues and unless I’m a psychopath or have very poor social abilities. Yeah, I recognize that. And that's helping me. Again, navigate and learn how to behave in the future. Yeah. No. No. And to touch on the point that you mentioned earlier, just the the distress that comes from the cognitive dissonance of people engaging in what is known to be regular decorum and social norms and not having that reciprocated. And again, the distress that comes with that I think is happening more and more and again, not to age us, but maybe it's more people of our age group who are kind of, you know, in that manner of being, but then also immersed in social media. And it's hard to reconcile. Yes. And it's my fear is that is becoming more the norm. Yeah. And the people in charge, the parents, leaders, whatever else, like that, whether it's at work or somewhere else. Yeah. Most people are asleep at the wheel. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Because we're seeing people in these positions failing in their duty to set the let’s say set the pace, set the norms. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, as far as what do we do about this, something that personally I am doing with my child is if you wouldn't behave this way in person, you do not behave that way online. Whether or not that you know other people are going to follow that same rule, I don't know. But I think that's a really important takeaway. If you wouldn't behave this way in person, don't behave that way online. Right. And that's funny because before I got canceled on social media, people would say to me, why don't you just go-- before and after-- They said, Why are you putting your name out there? You're making yourself vulnerable. And I got canceled, they're saying, why don't you just go on anonymously and say, well, because it feels wrong to me, my dictate, if I have something to say, I'm not going to hide behind a cloak of anonimity, I'm going to say my words. I'm going to stand by them and I'm going to suffer the repercussions. Hmm. So, you know, and again, social media, so electronic communication, it robs people or it allows them. It enables yeah, this type of again, anonymous mindset and all the research is to actually sort of create this such a fascinating study. Yeah. That and this is incredible because even if you're using your real name or whatever, if you can't see the other person, you're dehumanizing. Mm hmm. And there was one study done a few years ago where it's amazing that a person was in a room, and I forget the specifics, but they had the opportunity to cheat. Mm hmm. They knew they were being watched. Mm hmm. Like there was a camera or to a mirror or whatever. They knew they were being watched. And. And you know what allowd-- What made them more likely to cheat, even knowing that there was somebody watching? You know what? It was? No, I don't know. And I forget how they set up. It was years ago, but just wearing sunglasses. Okay. So even though, you know, part of your brain knows that I can see everything I'm doing. And I was thinking some some degree of anonymity is probably what just does it. Yeah, exactly. And that's why people on Halloween, we know that so many people engage in these, you know, reckless or violent, destructive behaviours with anitfa and their masks. Or when people go and protest. When you believe that you can. I can't be identified. Nobody can really know that it's me. Yeah. And so on social media, it's just it's ramping that up so much. And that's becoming people's norms from the youngest of age. Mm hmm. I'm not. I abhor violence, but especially for boys. When we were younger, we learned if we had a big mouth or if we, you know, we spoke out of turn. Mm hmm. We crossed the line. There were repercussions there. Yeah. And most of us learned it. Either be smarter about it or get big and, you know, whatever. But the fact is, there were repercussions. When you’re a child being raised with very few repercussions. If that becomes your norm? Yeah. You become a-- hate to say from another podcast, but you start becoming a narcissist. Mm hmm. I want to be careful about language, but. And I'm not saying people are becoming literal psychopaths. Right. But if you think about what you what really defines psychopathy, the lack of regard for others. Yeah. Yeah. Without remorse. Right. That's what we are creating. Like nothing. No, not diagnosable, but many of those tendencies. And as a side note, how sad that people are so comfortable under that anonymity to be so negative and so hurtful. Yeah, we're not seeing the converse where people are, you know, free with positive commentary and thoughts. Right. And so, yeah, it's I'm really hoping that, you know, that that there will be some change. I you know, I don't know if it's it's false hope because once again, so many people who should be in charge are asleep at the wheel. Mm hmm. And I can only hope that, you know, with people like us, for example, we're not trying to pat ourselves on the back. Mm hmm. We're just. We're doing this because our values dictate. Yeah. That we speak out. We see something wrong. We want to speak up. Yeah. Yeah. I hope more people will do that. Agreed. Yeah. So I guess on that note. Until next time, keep your eyes on the road, and your hands upon the wheel.