So of course, I was going to step in and I know that I'm petite and I've got a bit of a squeaky voice, so. Okay, fine. And this kid's towering over me. But regardless, I'm very clearly a parent in this situation. So I raise my voice, I express my concerns. And in both of these instances, these kids did not give a shit Welcome to Awake at the Wheel. In this episode, we're going to be discussing the topic of parenting. So this is one of my favourite topics to discuss for a number of reasons. I would say first and foremost, because I'm a parent, but also in my professional life, This is one of the earliest topics that I tackled in my graduate studies where my final capstone project was a parenting group for new moms. So this has always been a topic really important to me throughout my career. I've also been providing parent coaching to a number of clients. A niche that I have is providing parenting coaching to individuals who have children with ADHD. So that's why this is a very important topic to me. And I know that you've got a ton of expertise in parenting as well, so talk a little bit about that. Well, yeah, I'm a parent as well. Started about 26 years ago and that's always been interest for me also. My first mentor or my mentor in psychology is psychodynamic, so, you know, I don't go too far in that area. But recognizing the impacts of early experiences, seeing how parents engage with the child or how they facilitate the child, engaging with others, siblings and peers and seeing how the parents model for the children these things. So anyway, for many years, I've been fascinated seeing how, from the youngest of ages, children's personalities, the their psychological functioning, the way they see themselves and how they see their role with others. It's always fascinated me. And then professionally, with the same mentor, I started doing parenting capacity assessments for children's at the Children's Child Protective Services and the courts around Ontario, and I did over 500 of them and also custody and access or divorce, basically hearings like I would do an assessment to see the different parents. So, you know, I, I took came from that approach. And also in my clinical practice, I work with very many families and parents. So, yeah, I you know, and I'm a parent myself, and the first thing I always tell people is I say, look, I'm a parenting expert. I lose my bonafides. And I say, and if you tell that to my kids, they would laugh in your face. Right? And that's just my way of saying it sounds great on paper or in theory, but in reality, it's so darn difficult, even for those of us who should know better. It's so hard to be able to conduct ourselves with our kids the way that we want to, in the way that we know is in their best interest. So I think it's important for people to recognize that theory versus practice. Absolutely. No, I'll echo that. I wonder if my son would laugh at me if I told him I'm talking about parenting today. But in any event, I think that, you know, as clichéd as it is, parenting is one of the most important jobs that we have, right? We're raising the next generation. And along with that comes a lot of responsibility, a lot of stress, a lot of happiness, and, you know, all kinds of emotions in between. But as we know, there's no roadmap for it. There's no one size fits all. But today, we're going to talk about a few different strategies that we've found that have been helpful with the clients that we work with. And I'll even say that a lot of these strategies are ones that I use with my own child. So there's a lot of trends in parenting these days. And again, I think that it's such a popular topic because people just want to get it right. I think that's what it comes down to. But one of the most popular methods of parenting is called gentle parenting. So the basic premise of it is in theory, it's about respect, understanding and empathy for one's child. Sounds amazing, but in practice it doesn't seem to really go, you know, as intended. So I think this is another example, as we say many times, good intentions executed poorly. I want to share an example of our most recent vacation where I actually saw this in action. So I'll backtrack a little bit. So gentle parenting. The intention is to follow the authoritative parenting style. So what the psychological literature tells us is that there's three main types of parenting style. There's permissive parenting, there's authoritarian parenting and authoritative parenting. So permissive parenting is, as it sounds, overly permissive. Not a whole lot of structure, not a lot of rules. The third authoritarian parenting is, you know, very structured, overly rules focused, not really taking into account the child's wants, needs, wishes. And then there's authoritative parenting, which is, you know, the happy balance, I suppose, between the two, where the child's wishes are taken into account. There is rules and structure and things such as that. But it's, you know, a little bit softer. Did I cover that okay or did you want to say more about those three styles before I continue? Well, just let people always confuse authoritarian and authoritative. Right. Authoritarian. My way or the Highway Authority to explaining to children why they should be doing these things. And still the parent is in charge of the child, understands why these expectations are there and why what they did was, you know, hurtful or wrong or inappropriate. And should take into account those things like empathy, understanding. And so on, like general parenting suggests. But it seems to be that in most cases when people try to execute it, it comes across more as permissive parenting. So I mentioned an example when we were on vacation. So we were at the the Legoland theme park in Tampa, Florida, and we're waiting in line to put in an order for whatever it was we're getting apple fries. So there's this I want to say 12 to 14 year old boy and his mom is saying, Sweetie, what would you like to get? And he's like, well, an icee, she likes. Do you want an ice cream? No, I want an icee, and it just went on with him being extremely rude and disrespectful to her because she thought he wanted ice cream, but he wasn't icy, which I guess is a type of Slurpee. And rather than correcting this incredibly rude and disrespectful behavior, she, you know, hires her voice and keeps saying, you know, sweetheart, what would you like? What would you like? And I was just in complete and utter disbelief. And this is only one of probably hundreds of examples that I've seen. But again, the point is, I think that parents want to be warm to their children and parents want to be empathetic. But if you're receiving disrespect in return, I think that it needs to be changed up a little bit. Right. And this gentle parenting, I'm wondering whether it corresponds to what was once called democratic parenting or egalitarian parenting like these terms. I say this standards come and go, so it's just reinventing the wheel. And in most cases I have seen where, you know, I see the I hear people talking about it and I see the theory behind it and I see the execution. And once again, there's a discrepancy among all of these different phenomena. But this the thing is that parents, I think, have a hard time. Many parents, a few things is one, recognizing that I can be empathetic, loving, and so on. But from a position of strength or at least dominance. And I don't mean to crush and to dominate, but rather I am at the top of the pecking order. I am the adult. I'm the one who's lived all these years and I'm the one who knows societal rules, expectations and so on better than the child. And I can guide them. I can model for them how to conduct themselves better because it's for their best interest. Because I always say this the parents own well, the ultimate job of a parent is to prepare a child to become independent. Yes, right. To become an a fully functioning member of society. And you have to understand what the expectations are and so on. So I think a lot of parents have a hard time doing that and not feeling like a tyrant. But there are ways and children. It is, as is to parents all the time. Of course, love is important, but children need that structure and guidance because without that external structure they never learn to internalize that and they don't have an internal sense of structure, coherence, stability and then confidence. And this is the thing, right? This ultimately, as you said, that's our job, is to be that structure and set that example for children. But somewhere along the lines and I'll speak and I know that your youngest child is about the same ages as my child. So but I would say this current generation of parents of young children seem almost afraid to be that structure, have that structure, be that authority in the family. And some criticism that I'm sure I've heard is because, you know, the previous generation was too hard in their parenting and so on and so forth. So it's kind of turning into a little bit of a mess, though, from what I'm seeing, because long story short, kids are running the show like this kid at Legoland. One of the examples that I read about how to execute this gentle parenting is, you know, with your two year old, for example, if they don't want to put on their shoes, then you have a conversation about their emotions, about why they don't want to put their shoes on. And as a therapist, I can obviously understand the importance of emotions, but there's so many things wrong with that. You know, there's a time and a place to talk about our emotions, but if we have to leave the house, we have to leave the house. Pretty damn shoes on. Let's go. And maybe that's a little bit too harsh, but I really don't think so, because when we look at what's developmentally appropriate, a two year old or even a three year old doesn't really know why emotionally, they don't want to. I mean, chances are they don't want to put their truck down. But what they need to learn from us is so what, there's a time and a place to do what you want to do, and there's a time and a place to to get going and do what needs to be done. Right. Exactly. And and I think one of the reasons, in addition to this idea that people thought that previous generation, it wasn't the last generation was like two generations ago maybe were too harsh because I see this this progression of becoming more and more afraid to do parent Right. So I think I see 2 to 2 or three major factors. One is parenting through guilt. So many parents today are caught up in their own lives, you know, whether it's work life or they're they're addicted to their social, you know, to their phone and so on. So they feel bad. So, you know, they feel that my time with my child, I don't want it to be full, full of conflict. I don't want to hurt the child again, because they they don't feel they've been there enough for the child in other capacities because of their, again, their own work or self interest or whatever. So I see a lot of parenting out of guilt slash fear, number one. And number two, the problem one of the other big issues is that their children are being exposed to more kids like them, like these unruly, entitled, spoiled kids. And I always tell this to my kids, I say, when when they tell me, well, my friend so and so, you know, their parent lets them do this. See, I just tell them, you know, and mortified. My wife, I say, look, they got bad parents. Yeah, I say that, you know, I just say those are bad to explain why I say because and I expect the very crude from the youngest of ages. I say that this is what's going to happen to those kids. I tell my kids to look out for that and say, no, to pick this up, not to be judgmental, but to be able to recognize, Oh, this is what happens when you are raised this way. And by the way, I always tell my wife this. And so far with all three kids, it's it's worked. I say to my wife when I talk to my kids in this way, I also tell them, look, don't say this to your friend. Don't say, oh, your you know, my dad says your dad or mother is or whatever I say that's going to hurt them. It's going to cause conflict with you and it's not going to help you function properly when you're when you're with. They should be talking their parents, especially when you say, you know, your parent says that. So, you know, that's also part of of being a parent is like helping children navigate these tricky situations. So, you know, and my children know what is appropriate, what to say in what context. If they hear me swear, they know in this context. If some people say, oh my God, you swore in front of your kids, well, that's how I was raised. I know when and when not to swear. And my kids, as well. All right. I'm just picking one of these different things. But the point is, I'm actively engaged with my children. I explain these things to them. And anyway, again, I'm not perfect by any means. I feel so many times in doing what I want to do. Okay, I get that because of my own issues being raised, so on. And anyway, the point is, all I'm saying is go back to the saying, Wait, why so many parents have a hard time kind of laying down the law, right. To be. Those are two really big, big factors. A Anyway. Yeah. So to go back to what you're saying about the guilt and among moms, that's mom guilt. That's one that's talked about quite a bit. That was a yes. There's another. Factor. Yeah. And I, I observe this with with great interest because as a working mother, I totally get it. I understand that, you know, there's a balance of responsibilities between my career, my goals in that respect, balancing my marriage and being there as much as I want to be there for my child. And I imagine that this this sense of guilt for looking from generation to generation probably is stronger amongst mothers these days because there is a higher number of mothers that are in the workforce. So I think that's naturally going to come along with it. So I think that it's a very natural thing to experience, but can also be detrimental because if we're parenting out of guilt, we're parenting overly pervasively and we know that that's not what's in the child's best interest. And frankly, we're doing them a disservice. Right. And by the way, when I think about the third factor, that's what I was going to say about not just the mom guilt, but the fact is, again, with social media, parents are being exposed not to just the experts, quote unquote, but to all these other mothers or fathers, especially mothers. Right. I've had so many patients when they have you know, when they're pregnant, they ask me, what should I do? I say, stay away from these mommy groups, okay? We are toxic. They have unrealistic expectations. The parents can be able to each other that are supportive. And by the way, there are some good groups that say, if you find one, I say, go ahead. It's great. It's it gives you camaraderie or gives you good ideas. That's great to see. But also be very careful. Again, the judgment, so much harsh judgment and whether you're whether you feel that you're not living, you're not measuring up to everybody else, which again, this is an illusion. I've talked before about what you're seeing on social media, not necessarily, you know, critical doesn't correlate with reality. Okay. Or once again, these parents who actually do shame and I've seen it, I've had either patients or friends show me these posts like, oh my goodness. And all the why is basically gaslighting because they're saying, Come, we're a welcoming group. We're going to help you be a better mother, a better you, etc. and at the same time they're shaming you. Yeah. So just be very mindful that we've never had it before, never to this extent. Access to all these different resources, telling you what an incompetent and ineffective and inadequate parent you are. And actually, as you mention that, I certainly wasn't planning on sharing this in our discussion today, but I feel like I'd be remiss if I didn't. It's been kind of tucked away for a number of years, but this this stuff didn't exist quite as much 12 years ago when I had my kid. But it was starting to come out as far as, you know, the forums where people post their their opinions about things and lots of of excessive information about what to do. And you know, what the best this is and that and so on and so forth. And I actually ended up developing postpartum anxiety, which is a huge part of why in my graduate studies I decided that I wanted to do something for new parents and help to equip them with what I did not feel equipped with because of this bombardment of all of this information, which frankly, what I found and this is what I talked to, the new moms that I work with, is it's numbing our own instincts. I always talk, but parental instincts and how strongly actually are and in in this, again, overwhelming amount of information that's out there, it makes us ignore instincts. It makes us second guess ourselves and frankly, makes us feel like shitty parents. Right. And the fact is, look, not all parents are equal. Some parents have terrible instincts there. And I'm sure in your assessment work, you unfortunately did come across that. Yeah I I'm so I'm biased in that regard. That's mostly what I saw but for the average parent, yes, you do have certain instincts and recognizing that your instincts may have been, let's say, biased or distorted due to your own upbringing. Right. That's something I struggle with all the time. No, I get triggered. And, you know, and I recognize that. And so I think being aware of that is so important. And to be able to communicate that to our children. I have so many parents who say, like, they're so terrified. I don't want to, you know, harm my kid like my parents did to me. I say, well, every parent messes up their kid. Well, that's our job. Okay? We don't mean. And we don't know about until they're 30. Or sooner. So but, you know, it's we were trying our best. But I just say to people, you know, thankfully, the average human is the average kid is pretty resilient and they can go through a lot. And I see I've seen the worst of the worst. I've seen kids through that. Even so, I see what you're doing. I say a is not the worst of the worst by any means. And B, I say the very fact that you're concerned about it is something that your parent didn't do. They didn't show concern. Maybe they were, but they never actually acted on it. Right. And then C, most importantly, you're acting on it and you're trying your best, you're communicating with your kids. You're explaining to them why you did that. And if you screw up, like I tell it to my kids all the time with, you know, daddy had a temper tantrum. Yeah, right. If I, you know, and actually I say, here's why what you did was wrong. Here's why I called you out on that. Here's why I was upset. But my level of upset was not proportionate to what you did. I say that for me, I had a temper tantrum. I explained it because my own issues, I try my best and you know, and I always tell them that. And I say, that doesn't change how much I feel about you, I love you, etc.. I said, You know, as I see on the one hand, I shouldn't do things which were once one of the most important things you teach a child, because everybody knows this intellectually, but so many people live as if it's not real, which is I can love you, I can have your best interest in everything. And sometimes I can screw up, right? Or you screwed up and you did this. But I also screwed up and I overreacted. So neither is okay. I think you know, two things to be true at once. So I always tell people, you know, communicate with the kids and it will mitigate somewhat the potential damage that you could do. Absolutely. And that is the way to teach kids about emotions, Right. Is showing them that we we as adults can mess up. But here's why and here's what to do differently in the future. Right. And that commitment, crying again, is modeling is not just do what I say, but it's actually try to do as I'm trying to do. Yeah. Yeah. So as far as, you know, again, I'll say it again, parenting is near and dear to me. Being my son's mom is my favorite thing that I do. So before we get into some strategies I want to preface with, I truly use these in my own household and I find that they work is they're one size fits all. Of course not. But I wouldn't be making any sort of recommendation in this regard if it's not something that I really believed in so early in my career. My mentor and our colleague, Dr. Svec, wrote a book. He got a lot of flack. He got a lot of heat for it. But the title of the book was Don't Be, Don't Be a Wimp, Raise a strong leader. And it speaks directly to what we're discussing here as far as, you know, this gentle parenting approach, this overly permissive parenting approach and the term that he used throughout his book was wimp parents, A lot of psychologists, a lot of other professionals weren't to too happy about it. But basically the premise of this book was Dr. Svec went through interviews with six Canadian leaders and asked them about the ways in which they were parented and looking for the ways in which that they were parenting that were common amongst these six leaders in so far as, you know, what made them the way that they are. And he found that there were six key things that happened in all of these families, in all of these households in one way, shape or form. So what I'd like to do is I want to go through these six, but we'll go through them one by one, and I'll give my $0.02 on it. And or and I want to hear yours as well. So with everything that we're talking about, the number one, first and foremost, most important thing to do with any parenting strategy is ensure that all of it is underscored by unconditional love. So without unconditional love, none of this is going to work. Your kid must know that you've got their back. You love them, you're there for them, regardless of their behavior. You still love them. And you know, we punish behavior. We don't punish the child's character. That's a really important piece of it. One of the things that helps to build this unconditional love is, you know, not only through our day to day actions, but also ensuring that we have, you know, great one on one time with them. So one of the strategies in this book discusses the 30 minutes of unconditional love time each week. And in Dr. Sacks research, he found that 30 minutes was all that was needed in the week for a kid to feel that feeling of unconditional love in that secure attachment. So in this half hour, in the 30 minutes of time with younger kids, for example, and I use this in the parenting group that I did years ago, have a special been with different toys that you and your kids selected together. So if it's Lego or art stuff or whatever the case may be, and every week you select a, you know, a schedule time and spend that 30 minutes doing an activity from that, then no phones, no distractions. If you have multiple children, you have that with each child. But again, building that special time with them so that they know that they can count on you, that's what that feeling that develops is, So I don't have too much to add except for a few side notes. Tangential one, you were talking about the words that you're using, but I talked in a different context about the my personal favorite definition of love between adults was the feeling that your partner has got your back no matter what. And that's because it gives you a sense of security. Everything I'm hearing you describe in this, in this first rule or first principle is about, you know, fostering not just the sense of unconditional love, but at security. It's that secure attachment. Right? My parent is there. They've got my back. And so many kids don't feel that. So it's so important. I think it's so important. And having the kids back doesn't mean to let them get away with stuff like, you know, if I've worked with parents where the kid does something terrible at school and the parent comes in and they defend the child as even though the child does something wrong, that's not healthy. Right. And that's not that doesn't happen. It's that just teach the kid the wrong lot, wrong lessons. Right. So I think it's so important, both the back, but also here's the thing that if people are honest, they are going to they will be, let's say I don't know what word to use, maybe discouraged, maybe embarrassed, maybe ashamed. But here's the fact. Go to any park today, any schoolyard, any swimming pool, skating rink or whatever, and look at the parents and the vast majority of them. What are they doing. On their phone? They're sitting on the bench. On their phone. Exactly. And I watch you know, I've taken my kids to all, you know, swimming, all these other things. And I might be on my phone or on my laptop, but I would always corner my eyes as soon as the kid was coming around the corner or whatever, I would make eye contact. They would see me. They would see that I'm watching them always. And if you watch today, it's heartbreaking, almost. When I look at a kid who's at a schoolyard and I look at the parent, the parents on their phone, whatever the kid they pulling the parents answer arms over again. If a parent is talking to another parent, are the kids interrupting you? Say one second, please, whatever. But it's not that the kid is just feeling neglected and they don't feel the parent has their back or is invested in them or something like that. And that's what they're seeing constantly, whether it's at the dinner table or at the park or whatever else. So parents have to be so mindful of that because we've never had this in the history of humanity that a parent was right, that so many parents are so distracted from their kids and just not showing them that. So what is this doing to these kids? We don't know yet. I mean, we see it anecdotally, but what impact will this have on, you know, these generations? So I'm hoping that parents will do their best to be aware. I mean, even white parents pushing a kid in the stroller find the stroller, you know, like but even that, when you watch it, the parents not even making eye contact with it any time. And I see that look, they're looking they're looking at part of that attachment, you know, that you make that eye contact and kids are being robbed of that hugely. And it's funny, as you're telling that giving that example I was thinking about when I was a kid and the newspaper was the thing. Right. But that was pretty easy because I was reading the newspaper, I would just put my hands over it and say, Dad, right. But these days it's quite different. And like you said, this is the first generation and we don't really know. I think we can make a pretty educated inference about what the impact is going to be, but we don't know yet what the, you know, the long term impact, if it's of it, is going to be. But I imagine it's it's not good. And part of that unconditional love strategy and time. Another piece that's missing from it these days is family dinner. So this is one that I go on about. And any of my clients who are potentially listening know that this is what I go on about all the time. Families are so wrapped up these days in activities, right? So taking their kid from one activity to the next 5 to 6 days a week, which that comes with benefits, Of course, it's great to learn a skill and you know, you can learn discipline from certain sports and that's that's wonderful. But the sacrifice that comes along with that is a really, really important, well studied time together, which is family dinnertime. So in family dinnertime, there shouldn't again, there should not be phones, no electronics at the table. And it's not a time to discuss the problems of the family either. And problems can certainly come up and can certainly be discussed and problems together. But it's not a time for argument. So, you know, ensuring that you're spending at least three nights a week having dinner together as a family and again, building that support, building that unconditional love, building that attachment where your kid knows, okay, something happened at school today. I'm going to talk about with mom and dad or just mom or just dad at dinner time. Right. And and there's been studies about that, you know, that show that that that quality time, that dinner time. And it's not just having dinner per say if you have a dysfunctional family dinner, just another dysfunctional moment. It's about committing to making sure this is just our time together, catching up, how a house, things, going to school, whatever. And even if the kid is fine, even if it's not that elaborated on, the fact is it's just showing that face time with each other and and again it's correlated with now see correlated and because correlation doesn't equal causation. So someone could say well a family policy, this is correlated with lower rates of substance abuse of school age, low rates of school problems dropping out, pregnant teen pregnancies, all of all of these other factors that kids get involved in. People say, well, of course, if a parent, if you have a a stable enough family where you can have that kind of dinner, that stability, that in of itself is what is probably leading to these fewer problems that gets a stronger family, etc.. Yeah, more money most likely. Right? Things like that. So but the fact is even families with lots of money, if they've got their kids doing 20 different activities, you know, a week and it's back and forth and they're all buying dinner separately and everything like that. Well, that chaos, you know, that is not helping these children gain that sense of security. My parents care about me or whatever. They're not just shuffling me off to like 20 different activities. So it really is important, as you say, to have that space time, family time together. But it has to be there has to be an intention behind it. Right. And it's not like it can't be artificially. Okay. Today, let's go to our agenda. What you think. But the intention be on the parents side, saying trying our best just to make this a pleasant, you know, time together. By the way, we talk about unconditional love, I've got to say, only they'd want to be a hypocrite. Even Carl Rogers is either 19. Between 5246 and one of his books, he said, is unconditional positive regard. And what he said was that he said, even though in theory this is how somebody becomes a fully functioning, healthy human being, egos in practice, it never actually happens. He does not believe there is such a thing as true 100% unconditional positive regard. There's always conditions put on it in reality. So I just want people to understand that what we're talking about, unconditional love, it's a principle, it's a premise. It's we're trying to do it. We're trying to. An attitude to strive towards, I guess is a good way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So okay, so let's move to principle number two. So this is called the sponge factor. So it ties into what you were saying earlier as far as the example that we're setting for our children, Children are sponges. They pick up everything we say we do, whether we think they're listening or not. They're a lot more perceptive than we give them credit for. Specifically with regard to, you know, raising a strong leader. We want to ensure that we are demonstrating good emotional intelligence and strong work ethic. So this isn't necessarily and this is a tricky one because, you know, in one breath we're saying don't ignore your kids and don't, you know, be distracted when you're with them. But on the other hand, it's important for them to see, you know, mom and dad work. Mom and dad have responsibilities, and in turn you have responsibilities in the house as well. So, again, demonstrating that strong work ethic, demonstrating the way that the household is run, the way that we behave, the way that we emote. These are all really important factors with respect to that sponge factor. Right, Right. And the only thing I'll add is the I use the term with my patients. I say be a good citizen within the home. Okay, that's it. If you live, you know, whether it's a child, whether it's teen, whether it's an adult, young adult living in the house, if you're a part of the if you're living in the home, if you're part of the home, you're part of a system. And you can't be a spy. You talk about fun factor. You can't be a parasite sponge. You know, whatever you have to contribute and you have to do your best not to make everybody despise you, be a good citizen. So that's a model that I use. Yeah. So another big part of this is, you know, demonstrating toughness. And I think that's a tricky one. And back to the example of gentle parenting. I don't know if the current trends in parenting necessarily encourage toughness and not only toughness within ourselves as parents and demonstrating, you know, being that that rock, I guess, is what we can call it, but also instilling that same level of toughness in our kids and not suggesting that, you know, every single thing that upsets them is grounds to melt and be a puddle of emotions. Yeah, so tricky because, you know, we've talked before about how people kind of like take extreme views or black and white views. So people hear this about being tough and everything. So they think about the the parent who, you know, backhands the kid, you know, toughen up or whatever. And that's too extreme or the opposite is, well, that happened to me. And I've turned out fine. So. Right. It's as we talked with so many times, finding a happy medium like how do you how you convey, how do you model, how you encourage toughness in your child, sometimes through tough love or just through your own demeanor? I've said this so many times, you know, when I'd be interviewed on TV or radio where they're saying, how do you help a child deal with, let's say, you know, there was a mass shooting, for example, or a catastrophe or something like that. I said the parent has to make sure that before you even say anything to the kid that you compose yourself, you learn to control, as you're saying, about emotionally displaying emotional intelligence or being able to process your emotions in a healthy way. Do some simple breathing exercises to be able and not just in talking to the child, but as you said it just in how you conduct yourself. Right? Because that's what the kid sees, even if you're not. That's social learning. Even if you're not talking them directly, they're observing how you act. So, you know, how do you comport yourself like my kids? You know, like I can be over. I'm dramatic and it's performative in many ways. They know it's a shtick and I tell them that. So I'll say something to the TV's on, I'll say something, and, you know, so my kids mimic that. And some of them it's like, Whoops, what have I done here? Other kids mock me for that. But the point is, like I have to be more mindful of that myself when I explain to the kids, and if I'm genuinely upset, I'll say, Here's why I'll explain to them, because I'm not having a temper tantrum at the TV. Like I said, it's it's mostly for theater. That's just right. But I let the kids know that because, again, I don't want them to take the wrong thing. I think that's a normal reaction. That's not okay. You know, if again, it's being it's being dramatic for a point. And I can't think of a specific example, but I know that there, you know, embarrassingly have been a few times where when my son was younger, I'd see him responder act in the way that I would have, which maybe wasn't the best choice of behavior. And I'm like, gosh, I need to and need to fix that one. Funny enough, now he can just pointed out and say, Mom, that's, you know, maybe not a good thing to say, but that ties into what you were saying before, where we've created that environment where he's not disrespectfully calling me out on my behavior. But, you know, we have expectations of him. And in turn, you know, there's there's a standard that's been set for the family in our behavior right. And by the way, just that's just if I can jump on that for second, because whether parents or relations or anything else like that, I tell people the one thing that I see that makes people react disproportionate to what actually happened is hypocrisy. And as a parent, you know, if it's do what I say but not what I do, that's hypocrisy. And the reason I say I tell people that there is that hypocrisy, it's just so powerfully and so profoundly is that in reality, hypocrisy is a symbol of injustice. And I see that at least in the West, we have this belief that in a just world. So if I you know, if I'm a good person, good things happen. If bad things happen to bad people, that's that sort of of justice or that if something bad happens to me, I will have my vindication or someone will support me or whatever. And if you're robbed of that sense to me, early age, that's lack of justice, that sense of injustice that really gives a sense of insecurity, of anxiety, because the world's not operating the way that we think it should. So parents have to really be mindful of that. So again, if your son is calling you out on something, if a parent goes, you can't see that because I'm the adult saying, no, no, again, we're all citizens rights, something that may have higher standing and ranking of power, but we still are being held to the same standards. Yes. And interestingly, that ties into the next principle, which I think is not only difficult in a parenting context, but, you know, as humans in general. And it is understanding the word no. So showing your children two types of know there is they the necessary no, which is, for example, you know, I want to pet elephant. Well, we can't afford that and that's not practical so that's an obvious no but there's also the strategic no. So you know an example of that could be I want to have ice cream before dinner. Well, you know, you could potentially fulfill that. But from a strategy standpoint, no, they need to understand that that's not, you know, appropriate for their nutrition, for their schedule, for their routine, and so on and so forth. And the importance of this is, you know, I think that it seems obvious, but it's very difficult in practice. Back to what we discussed before is as far as kids having to develop, expectations of how the world works not only in their current reality, but frankly, when they grow up, they're going to hear NO a lot. So understanding how to manage the word NO, how to deal with the word NO, when to fight back, when to accept it. That is incredibly important. Exactly. And again, the delivery of the know and expecting that if you say no to a child, to expect a child to go, okay, got it. That that would be unrealistic depending on the kids age, especially. So learning how to contain your own reaction to the child's reaction to your saying no, for example, it's so important, as you say, I say this to the kids all the time, and I say this to parents when they say when you are imposing a no on the child or expectations, I tell them, I say, look, I know you don't like it. I say, and I know you don't appreciate it. I say, one day, I say, I promise you, I say this to parents who I say, I probably I tell them, I say, you're going to realize this was actually for your benefit. Then I go back to the whole I'm trying to raise you to be a self loving, self efficacious, active participant in your own life, Right? An independent person. So I see that to my kids for the youngest of ages. And again, I say this to parenting all the kids not accepted that I could go, Oh, thank you. I didn't know that. I understand. I accept your No, now I see. That's not going to happen. But the more you do it from the beginning, you're laying the foundation and eventually it will sink in. Because if you never do it or you don't do it until they're teenagers or something like that, it's almost too late. It's hard to get them all. It's never too late, but it's really hard. You want to get on board from the early stages at least. To hear that narrative again may not appreciate it. They may not fully understand it, but they're starting to develop that foundation of understanding, and eventually it will sink in. They will be a better functioning person. Absolutely. And that ties in to discipline and in general. Right. And discipline is another tricky one where I think and I'm sure you've observed in your work that a lot of parents use age inappropriate discipline. So I would say when it comes to, you know, the the rules and the consequences, first and foremost, you need to recognize what is and is not appropriate for that child's developmental and cognitive capacity to understand, you know, if I do, X and Y will happen. As far as discipline, though, I think that one of the most important pieces of this beyond what we're really talking about here in terms of learning how the world works around them, is creating self-discipline. And that's something that is, you know, frankly lacking quite a bit in in people these days is this degree of self-discipline. People are very focused on, you know, what they want right now. They're focused on, you know, pleasure versus hard work and delayed gratification. So instilling discipline rules and consequences, logical consequences for actions is incredibly important in developing that degree of self-discipline as well. Right. And I talked about this in a previous podcast where the marshmallow test, the ability to I think me have talked about it, I think was in the fifties or at least the sixties, where a child's ability to delay gratification in the moment. As a young child, if I can get one snack or one treat right now, or if I wait 5 minutes, I can get a handful, right? The children are able to do that. A young kid that predicts pretty powerfully their ability to succeed in life later on. So yeah, it's really important for parents to to teach all those things that you mentioned and to do it in a healthy way, though, again, the authoritarian way, it doesn't teach the child that there's a benefit to doing it for their own development. What the Teach the kid is in this context or around this person, I better not do this. I don't want to get punished or I can't get away with something that versus an internalization of all of the things that we're talking about. Absolutely. And as far as discipline and back to, you know, age inappropriate, I think that it's important for us to talk a little bit about spanking, because I know that that's a controversial topic. I personally don't think and I agree and think that there's literature that agrees with the statement that it's not helpful, especially for certain children. And of course, there are laws that surround it as well. But physical discipline is something that's been around for many generations. But I think the research is now emerging that it's it's not helpful or useful or any more helpful or useful than having proper developmentally appropriate consequences for kids. Yeah. And it's so, so difficult because, I mean, parents say that well, I mean, there is some research showing that in some very narrow contexts, you know, some kind of fiscal discipline can be helpful. Right. But as you say, it depends on the child, Maybe the child's temperament, their development, their abilities, their emotional functioning. So, you know, and you don't know that, number one. And number two, the kind of fiscal discipline it has to be meted out in a very controlled, compassionate educational manner. And most parents, when they do that, that's not what they're doing in the moment. they’re reacting. It’s out of anger. So the child is not-- it’s out of anger. Exactly. Out of anger and frustration. That's often fear. And that's what the kids are seeing, the frantic ness of it. They're not getting the potential benefits. And again, it's only potential because I always tell parents, I say air on the side of caution. Now, here's the problem and people don't want to talk about it. But the fact is and I'm going to sound really conservative here, and I wouldn't be anyone who knows me knows I'm very, very liberal. And I come from a very obviously untraditional family. Right. But the fact is, I've had so many parents, whether they are single parents or they are divorced or they were single parents, whether they went through a separation or divorce or they have another partner who's just not present. And I say that this is why in theory, you need and now it could be a man and a woman or it can be a a tough and a softening person, whatever is, even if it's two women or two men, as long as the children know that, you know, first of all, you want to say about the love, you know, coming from both parents, of course, but there has to be at least one who they know. Okay, That's the disciplinarian. You know, they're going to bring it out. They're going to hold me to account. And if you don't have that, then the children, they don't have that sense of structure, of guidance, whatever. And again, we're not talking authoritarian. We're not talking being a tyrant or a dictator. We're just talking about knowing that, okay, there is a strong force above me, you know, And again, whether that's the the the disciplinarian period, whether it's values, whether it's a religious ethos, whatever it is, that there's something greater than me that I need to abide by or adhere to or, you know, or respect. And sometimes I'm that tough parent. That's what you need. Once again, not an authoritarian, not a tyrant, just a doctor who's going to toe the line. And so if you're a single parent and you don't have that, especially if you're the mother and your kids getting older, especially if it's a boy, it's really hard. And again, I don't want kids to feel scared of their parents, but I do want them to be afraid of the consequence, knowing that if they don't do what they're supposed to do, there will be a consequence. And especially with teenagers, they think, what's what's the consequence? What's the worst that can happen? What can my mom do? Or something like that. So again, if you have to pick two moms or two dads, as long as one of them really is the disciplinarian in the family and it's hard to as a single parent, unless you know that you are that role right. So anyway, so I just want to throw that out there as another. Yeah. And that's something I have observed both professionally and personally as far as teenagers especially, they don't care about authority like it's wild and I don't know, you know, how broadly this is appearing, but I don't know. When you and I were kids, I don't think that if I'm thinking of a specific example and I'll give you example that, you know, if somebody’s mom or dad or if the teacher or the principal called us out of line, it was like, Oh, shit, I better, you know, smarten up. They're not seeing that there's there's been a couple of times. So my son and I are 30 minutes of special time together is on Friday afternoons. He's 12. He doesn't need me to walk home with him anymore. But that's been our routine since he was four years old. So we've kept that up. And that's when we talk and we talk about the week and so on and so forth. But in recent years there's been two incidents where, you know, older kids were behaving poorly and did so in my presence. It involved my kid directly. So of course, I was going to step in and I know that I'm petite and I've got a bit of a squeaky voice, so. Okay, fine. And this kid's towering over me. But regardless, I'm very clearly a parent in this situation. So I raise my voice, I express my concerns. And in both of these instances, these kids did not give a shit I could I was more surprised by that than their behavior. Their behavior is terrible to begin with, But my point in telling the story is that I think that there is a significant lack of discipline in people's households. If, you know, not only can I see this in two instances out in the world, but you know, in clinical practice, it's pretty evident as well. Exactly. And look, first of all, anyone would say teens don't respect authority. That's a fact. Okay. We don't. But understanding that is an authority and understanding that there is a consequence, even if you don't respect the authority, the fear of a consequence. Again, it's not the best motive, but it's one of the ways to helping people build morals is you start with that fear and it's it's a low level, but you need a foundation and then you build on that and they don't have that. And and yet you can look at any video online and you see this as as you're describing, whether it's parent teacher, police officer. Right. And the people in charge. This is why we have the podcast called Awake at the Wheel, because the people in charge have been asleep at the wheel. When you have politicians saying, oh, these are bad, okay, or defund the police or the police are one of the main symbols of authorities about symbolism. We've talked about, you know, the power of symbols. And so when even them, whether it's teacher, police, whoever else. Now, now with scientists and doctors, where people, you know, and kids are hearing the parents call the doctor, they don't know anything. Right. So what are kids supposed to trust? And kids can't trust themselves. And if they want to, you know, if you want kids to trust themselves, well, go read Lord of the Flies. See how that turned out? Okay. That's what happens when you have kids in control. It's not utopia. If Lord of the Flies or Yellowjacket to be more. Okay. So. So yeah, it's it's look, it's. I have to say it. The blame lies with the parents of those kids because they didn't instill in them that sense of either respect or fear of authority and respect to be better. But again, it's hard. And again, I never got to be honest. I didn't respect authority, but I understood. I understood the hierarchies and everything like that, and I was respectful to them because I understood that's what's expected of me. So I may not have respected their authority, but I knew this is how I should conduct myself lest something terrible happened. And that's such an important distinction, right? Because again, we're talking about what's development. You develop developmentally appropriate. And yet teenagers don't respect authority That's as old as time, and that's fine. But like you're saying, the demonstration of that respect, or at least the acknowledgment of, okay, fine, they may not like it, but I'm going to do it anyways. As far as respecting that hierarchy, that's what's missing. Exactly. And again, it falls on the parents of parents. What can I do? They can see the videos, Yes. But once again, as I said, you know, you are the filter through which those kids see it that you impose on them or inculcate them with values, not your own values, just healthy values. And I mean, they can also be girl values as well. And the children should adopt it blindly. But again, they should understand the hierarchy. And at the very least, there's a consequence. And even though I blame the parents, the fact is schools, they've failed recently because of our few consequences. Right. And now we'll talk about this in another podcast. But the fact is that kids are being taught, well, if you have certain, let's say, immutable characteristics or certain lifestyle choices or anything like that, then you're untouchable. You actually do get away with these things because you can cry racism or sexism or homophobia or whatever else like that. Even if you're just being an A-hole, you have that recourse. So and so I don't I'm saying this because even for the parent who's the most diligent, who's trying his or her best to raise the kids with a strong that values respect for, etc., etc., it's an uphill battle. I get it. But what do you do? Just throw up your hands As a parent, it's your job to say, I'm going to fight to make sure that, you know, no matter what's going on outside, they're my kid has at least some sense of, I don't know, decency. And and again, it's not stop being a decent, good compliant person because I wasn't any of those. It's about having the wherewithal, the ability to just know what's right and what's wrong, make the decisions and to feel the confidence in your ability to get your being the child, the teen's ability to navigate these situations and in a productive mess. And I actually love the way this conversation is flowing because this flows right in to principle number five, which is helping your child to develop a sense of what's right and what's wrong and fighting against what's wrong. And, you know, I guess we can give our parents credit for this one here because as evidenced by our podcast and other things, you know, that's something that I think is a really important core value for both of us, where we if we see something is wrong, we're going to speak up. And empowering your children to do that is incredibly important, but also helping them to temper when to speak up and maybe when to be more diplomatic about it. I'm still working on that one a little bit myself. But, you know, it's a really important skill and characteristic to not only have in ourselves, but more importantly, since we're talking about parenting, to instill in our kids. Exactly. And with my parents, they never told me any of this stuff. They did. They lived their lives that way. They fought for what they felt was right. I saw them do it and sometimes to their own detriment. Not a huge detriment, but I saw it. These are values, and I've always had that again as a kid, as a teenager, I was I was a conundrum. Many teachers and people because I was usually the smartest in the class, but I was also the class clown. And that's that's a nice way of putting it. As I got older, the class clown became class, something else. All right? And so again, I lived. I was, I was I. But I'm working with parents and they tell me what their kid's doing. I tell them, I say, Well you know, compared to what they could be doing, it's not that bad because parents think, Oh my God, my kid's not perfect. I say, they tell the parents say, here's what I did as a teen at your kid's age. And I say, you know, my parents would have loved to have your kid and of thing just to give perspective. So I'm saying, you know, it's easier for me to say now as an older person to recognize that and but what I'm saying is, despite how rotten of a kid I was and as terrible as a teenager I was, despite all that, the thing that really I saw from my parents was that idea of fighting for what's right and and calling out what's wrong. Actually, sometimes diplomatically, sometimes not so much. But you know, that that that value of of something that even stick up for the you know, for the underdog and so on. By the way, I don't expect of most people because they don't want the target put on their backs. I get that right. So that's something you have to know. You pick your battles and so on. But even understand, even if I say, you know what, I should have acted the situation, but I did not to make excuses but to recognize why I didn't do that. Teenagers can do that, right? It's hard because, you know, the prefrontal cortex is slowing down. It's the limbic system is on fire. There's act on impulse. I get it. Brains are fully formed, but trying from the youngest of age of helping kids to see that even, by the way, I think I may have said this to you before, I'm not sure. But I tell people, when you see parents who let's say your child doesn't say, please or thank you, right. And when a parent doesn't intervene, that's a simple thing. At two years old, a child gets something and you tell like it. They thank you. When parents don't do that, I predict and it's usually because we have you know, we have lots of we have good data here by my wife and I because we are kids, you know, 26 to 13 years old are almost 14. We've seen these kids grow up. And I would predict and years later I would you know, we saw these kids having these troubles, right. Because the parents didn't take those simple interventions. Right. You know, or if a kid smacks another kid. Right. It's not like, you know, you don't roughhouse your child, you know, but but you do say, hey, hey, hey, that's not nice, blah, blah, blah and stuff like that. When parents don't do that, you have a pretty good predictor. Like I said, our prediction of what's going to happen later in life. So that would be rocket science, even just the basic, basic decency, you know, that that's what parents have to they have to model, they teach, they encourage and they mean. And, you know, it almost feels like so rudimentary that we're saying that. But it's it's so, so true and it's so lacking, especially, you know, to it to align with all of the topics that we've discussed in this podcast across episodes. There seems to be a significant lack of empathy towards other people, respect for other people. The list goes on and kids are seeing that, right? They're seeing that, well, if mom and dad behave that way than I am, too. And then, you know, out the window, good manners as well. Right. And I got to say, I think I might allude to this before, but I truly think that one of the reasons I get I only want speak for myself certain patients is that they were raised in a certain way, whether it was pathologically unhealthy or whether it was in a good way to conduct themselves decently. And they're seeing so many people not doing that. That is distressing. They start questioning their own values. And I think that's one of the reasons that end up in therapy, because some of the stuff that they say gets to them, I don't hear a lot of people doing like if they go, oh, you know, when I'm with my grandparents and they're so rude to the servers, I'm mortified and stuff like that. Yeah. And with other people and you watch them and they're jerks with servers or other people, right? So I really do think that that's I truly believe that that's one the factors sensor people therapy is one really what the hell's wrong with the world? Is it is it the world is distressing. And so I like to remind that I go, yeah, I say to those people, I go, If the world were comprised of more people like you, it would be a better place. The reality is it isn't. So we have to help you as an adult or a teen or whatever the age is. You know, learn to navigate, learn to not take on their ills, learn to not internalize this and learn to contain. Your reaction to this because it's not going to change. Yeah, right. You have to be able to adapt to it and not not to act like them, but to, you know, to almost insulate yourself from the not so niceties that we're seeing. And once again, that stems from the, you know, how they were raised. Yeah. And you're seeing it I'm seeing it with my clients as well. And as I said before, you know, the clients that I work with are predominantly first responders. And they're seeing it not only in their profession where the public is treating them with such disrespect, but, you know, I, I have such respect for the clients that I see. They're lovely human beings. And I always say to them, unfortunately, the cognitive dissonance that exists right now is that you're holding other people to the standard that you hold yourself and like, Wow, what a crazy concept. But it's true. You know, these, these lovely human beings are really suffering because they're, you know, so conscientious and care about the way they treat other people, but aren't seeing that reciprocity. And that causes a great deal of distress. Right. And I know I mean, just because I don't want to forget this, if I may sort of just kind of take it out of order because there's always a question of what can you do about it? If I can say one thing about that, what you're saying. So a few years ago I was with my friend and it was the first time that COVID restrictions were were loosened for a little while. And so we went out. We hadn't seen each other face to face for a while or talk about all the craziness in the world, etc., etc.. And as we're talking about these things, he looked at me and he said, Doesn't this worry you? Does it stress you? Does. And of course I go, No, too. Why not? I said, Because I've known this about people, you know, much of my life. I say, I accept it. I don't like it, I said, But I've accepted. What I say is, on the one hand, I have a dim view of, you know, of humans because I know that we're self-serving, blah, blah, blah. And he said, But then why isn't that depression? I said, Because I don't let that in view either. A overwhelm like I contain it and B, I say I only let into my realm vise versa. You know, the people that are not like that. And if they are like that, I either keep that a distance or if I limit my interaction with them and so on, because it's something you can do with it. As you're saying that you know that you're holding people to the standards that you have. And again, if everyone did, it would be a better world. But it's not. So how do you deal with it? You know, you teach your kids that way. Sure. But if it's your neighbors, your friend, whatever, it's learning how once again to say, okay, the reality is this person sucks or this person is not. You know, having them in my life is not in my best interest or whatever else like that. Once again, recognizing that and seeing how can I deal with this person or the situation in a way that I don't I don't get exhausted by it. Right. So and those two things to be true at once, people can suck, but that does you know, people suck at the beginning of time try and but and if you recognize that and you learn to navigate around that they will they're sucking us will have less of an impact. Yeah what's the thing Good fences make good neighbors. So the idea being, you know, the better boundaries we set, the more we can get along with people. That's like, unfortunately, that's, you know, the whole point of boundaries. Exactly. So principle number six ties in a little bit to number five as far as teaching your kids how to win. Having a good attitude with regard to, you know, only having a bit of a competitive nature and, you know, wanting to be the best that they can, but also teaching them how to lose. Because the fact is and the reality is, is there's going to be situations where you win, where you lose, where you don't like the way things are going. So having that that first and foremost, again, that attitude of wanting to be the best person that you can, which, you know, in turn can often lead to winning. But also and I would say maybe more importantly, learning how to lose. Right. And losing with dignity. Grace And sometimes thing is sometimes the loss is due to unfairness and helping somebody to to be able to cope with that. Oh, yeah, it wasn't fair because. Right. And what do we do about that? And I had to deal with that sometimes when I was coaching sports or helping others. And it's the thing is, it's so important whether we're doing this with our kids or with ourselves, it's not minimizing it. So when I say, Yeah, it's the world is unfair or people suck or whatever, it's never to minimize somebody's experience. But by the same token, we don't want to exaggerate their experience. We don't want to make a a losing a catastrophe. We try to keep it in perspective. Right? So I think it's really important to help somebody, you know, basically it's a cliche. And so much of what we're saying is say it's almost either common sense or it might seem a cliche, but it seems like common sense has gone out the window days. So it's good to hear this again. And so it's it's not a losing it's not a losing experience if it's a learning experience. Right. What you know, and that's so critical. What can I learn from this? Because I always tell people can't go back in time. I haven't mastered that yet. So we're not able to go back in time. We can't change what happened. But we could change the impact on us. We can make sure we don't carry it and it doesn't just eat away at us and we can actually learn to do better next time. And what are lessons that we can learn from that? Not just about the loss, but about people or about circumstances? What can you do better? Things like that. So turning into a learning experience. Absolutely. Helps mitigate. The loss. And I kind of crapped on sports a little bit earlier as far as people overcommitting their kids. But I think this is an opportunity where it is incredibly important to ensure that your kids are in some sort of either competitive sport or activity or something like that, so that they have that firsthand ability to learn this skill that we're talking about here. you know, back to what you were saying, demonstrating that showing that example, you know, when it comes to business, for example, if something doesn't go the way that I want it to, of course I'm pissed off, but I can't start my feet and have a temper tantrum because I know my kid is watching me and learning. Right. And what I was gonna say sorry when I interrupted was that, you know, schools have gone in the opposite direction. So many schools have no competitive sports because we don't want winners and losers. We don't want this is this is the antithesis of human development and human growth. And resilience is saying, no, no, no, we don't want anything to lose. So we're not going to have that opportunity. No, no. We want kids to have the opportunity to learn, to lose, to fail to pick themselves up. And I've said this to so many parents, I say, thank goodness your kid did that as a teenager before. It has a greater impact on them. Better they learn now, whether it's, you know, having to repeat a class, whether it's because kept skipping, whether, you know, they spent all their money and now they have nothing. I say let them learn these lessons early on. Right. As opposed to later. And if you don't have that competitive sport, if you don't learn to lose either with dignity or learn to learn to live, learn to learn from that, or realize, oh, maybe this isn't my wheelhouse, I need to find something else that I can excel at. I'm never going to be able to do A, B, or C. Nothing wrong with that. Focus on your F, right. We are robbing kids of that when we rob them of competition. And again, I'm not we don't want to get black and white here. I'm not talking about Thunderdome. I'm talking about two kids that are one. At least it's just about learning, you know, that there are competitions, there are hierarchies, there are people who are better than you in certain realms, certain skills, certain tech, whatever areas of life. And learning that either I have to be okay with being second or 200th best, or it's not for me. I'll find something else that I can excel at where I can do better. I may not be number one, but again, I'll get a better sense of accomplishment of maybe other people's admiration or success, whatever the case may be. Right. But you don't ever you don't learn that if there's no competition, that's ridiculous. And and there's so many different German nations are manifestations of this these days where we're, you know, we're taking up the competition, whether it's the streaming. So there's no different levels of education. But all the kids in the same classroom. And, you know, because we do want to stigmatize, again, great intentions, but we're execution and look at what it's doing to those kids. Yeah. So anyway. No. And you make such a fabulous point with that. And I feel like I could talk about that very topic for an hour in and of itself, you know, the participation ribbons and everybody gets a trophy. And, you know, it's another one of those examples where in the short term, sure, that's great. But in the long term, not only are kids learning nothing from that, but in fact you're detracting from their learning because they're not, you know, all those great things that you mentioned, they're not acquiring that skill of, okay, well, this is what I'm good at. This is what I'm not so great at. Let me focus on these strengths instead. Right. Is it is incredibly important for kids, understand what that feels like, what that looks like and what they can do in the future about it. Right. And if I can just add one more thing to that and it'll come up in other and it has come up in other podcasts, what we're basically telling kids now is not you and I, but what the message that they're getting from so many different sources is if somebody does better than you, that's because of. Hmm hmm. That's they tried hard just because their parents do this, that no, it's because the world is not fair and we're going to make it more equal. It's not your fault you didn't do anything wrong. No, no, no. It's inequity because of A, B, C or D, and that's the opposite of self-efficacy and self agency. With those constructs, we're trying to teach kids. This is what you can do to produce a result that you want. Okay? Or a better result or to improve. It's stuff like that. That's not they're not being told that. They literally are being told No, no. It's due to only in there. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, as far as the, the six principles, those are the six. And in the description of the YouTube video will link, if anyone's interested in reading the book in full, I highly recommend it. Again, it's principles that I've been using for some time with my own son and I truly believe in and what we've talked about here. But as far as are typical. Question Okay, so we've presented all of these different things, but what can parents do? Right? It can be overwhelming to implement a million different things all at once. I would say for parents who who are interested in making some changes, pick one, pick one that we talked about and work on implementing it for the next month. And, you know, I imagine that it'll come with some challenges and frustrations like you said earlier on. Right. It's you know, it's never too late. But the later we start, the more challenging it can be in terms of changing your parenting. So that's one thing that that folks can do about this. But another is and this goes back to my early work with parents, is focusing on yourself and, ensuring that you're the healthiest that you can be, so that you can be the best parent that you can be. So an acronym that I like to use is NEST. That stands for nutrition, exercise, sleep, time for yourself and support for mothers. So, you know, looking at different areas in your life where you can improve that again. So making yourself the healthiest can be to be the best pair that you can be. Excellent. And I would say, you know, we've sort of talked about this already with ourselves having self-compassion, recognizing that just the effort, just trying to just even thinking about this is a good big step that a lot of parents don't do it. Like, truly a lot of parents are worried about it, but they don't actually think about how can I, you know, avoid these issues or do better here. So thinking about it and so on, it's a great step then trying to actualize it and recognizing that if I keep use myself as a model, say even with our best intentions, we are going to screw up. We don't let that deter us. We don't go black and white and say, Well, it's impossible or something like that. We try our best to do better. And if the kids see that and if we communicate that to them, we show humility. We can have the strength where we're the parent. But we can also be, you know, we're not our kids friend. Anyone who says that I hate when parents say that we're not the kid's friend, right? We can be friendly. And what if our kids become 20 or 30 or whatever? We can be their friends, but as teens, whatever, we're the authority. But we are benevolent or we are a loving authority. We are an accepting authority, but we are also the authority. And we have to live that, you know, lead that role. So so while we're doing that, recognizing that we can do that from a place of compassion, But the self-compassion is so important because we're going to keep screwing up and we own those mistakes, right? We have to always on them. And it's because some parents are afraid that if I tell my child I screwed up too, I don't I lose my authority. No, no. You show them how you manage authority. You own it, you recognize, you show and you make mistakes. You model for them how to do to, you know, to deal with it with grace. You know, you don't make excuses you don't deny it. You don't gaslight them. You say, Yeah, I screwed up. And, you know, and I'm trying to do better. And because why would you want to like, how would you expect the child to try to do better by you if you're not willing to try to do better by your child? Yeah. All right. So I guess with that, as always, until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel. As much as we love listening to ourselves speak, especially me, we would love to hear from you as well. So our emails are in the description below. If you would, please write to us with your questions, feedback, comments, topics that you'd like us to cover. We can do this together. The two of us, but it's much better if we do it together. So we look forward to hearing from you. And we are going to have a segment called Roundtable where we're going to discuss the the feedback and the questions and so on from our audience. And we will we will take it to the next level. We're going to help you be able to deal with some of these issues that you might be bringing us or it's going to be a topic for us to explore together. And we really look forward to building a community, a community of like minded people who want to do right by others, not just for themselves.