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And another one that tends to drive me nuts when I see it online is the term trauma bonding People act like this is an example I just read the other day was people who went through a negative employment experience are trauma bonded with one another? Oh my gosh. No. Trauma bonding is reserved for, you know, pretty horrific shit that people go through and they feel a bond to their perpetrator. That's not the same thing at all. Welcome to Awake at the Wheel. In this episode, we're going to be exploring current attitudes towards mental health, accessing psychotherapy and therapy, and the fact that there seems to be an overabundance or at least increase in therapy speak in general conversation. So, Oren, I know you and I chatted a bit about this amongst ourselves and just noticing that there are certainly positives and negatives to the increased access to mental health. But there's also some I think, politicization of this as there seems to be with many different topics these days, that some on one side think that if you access therapy, you're soft or it's overdone, whereas others on the other side seem to think that, you know, it gives them reason or basis or grounds to pathologize everything that they go through. Yeah, we've really seen an increase in acceptance of psychotherapy and being able to talk about and to destigmatize mental health issues and getting help for those matters. And especially at the clinic. I think it's amazing that we see so many first responders. So if we're able to help people with that type of mindset, that type of culture, to be able to connect with process and use their emotional experiences, that's great. But at the same time, we don't take a one size fits all approach. We don't take a narrow approach. You know, sometimes we know that it's better to be able to reflect on it and to kind of absorb those feelings and to use them. Other times, like, you know, we have to suppress them. We need to rely on hardiness resilience, logic planning and so on. So, you know, unfortunately, there are far too many people out there, whether they are influencers, quote unquote, or supposed experts in the field who are giving only a tiny, narrow slice of what we do. And I think they're giving a distorted view of what we're doing. And too many people are just taking that as gospel and they are misusing something that could be an amazingly powerful tool, which is psychotherapy or understanding the human condition, the human mind. And I think a lot of people are either intentionally or unintentionally really not getting a clear full picture of, you know, of what can be such an important element of their life. Yeah. And I'll echo exactly what you said there. Working with a group like first responders and even military who have historically been told, you know, suck it up and move on to see that group of people, you know, there's such a far greater acceptance of accessing therapy and working on these things. It's amazing. But I think that, you know, the on the other side of it, there is this this pop culture influence of therapy being fashionable. So I'm not necessarily speaking of the clinical population here. I kind of want to separate and and disseminate that, too. But there's this amongst the younger generation, it appears that, you know, going to therapy is the thing to do. So like so many things in life, I think that it's a matter of balance. But I'm of two minds on it because I think that preventative psychotherapy can be incredibly valuable, right? So rather than addressing the problem when there's a problem, gain the tools and perspective beforehand so you can cope when things come up. But what are your thoughts on this kind of pop culture shift as far as therapy appearing to be fashionable? Well, I have many patients who, maybe partly because of that or partly because of their own insecurities, they feel almost guilty. They think like, you know, this is such a privilege, it's such a luxury. It's you know, it's a trendy thing to do. And I'm like, no, no, you have some serious issues here. And I'm glad that you found the honesty and courage to try to, you know, to seek out help and try to work on it. So, yeah, I'm seeing this let's say this perspective on therapy, really having a bunch of negative impacts on people. And yes, if you're going to therapy, just because it's trendy or is the thing to do or you don't have, you don't understand that going to therapy if you're doing good therapy, is a lot of hard work. And I say this to patients all the time. It gets worse before it gets better because we're going to again, I'm talking good therapy and sometimes there's different types of therapy. Sometimes it's just simple solution focused. You have a problem at work, do A, B, and C, Sometimes just simple coaching or counseling is sufficient. But if you want to do the deep work that we do in therapy, you have to be prepared to dig into places that you've been avoiding for much of your life or you've been lying to yourself about, you've been distorting, you've been using allowing defense mechanisms to, you know, to do to help you see reality, not clearly because it helps you sleep better at night. And if I can just my mentor used to say this. He said, When people come to therapy and it's a bit of hyperbole, but there's a lot of merit to it, he said When people come to therapy to say, I really want to make deep, lasting, meaningful changes in myself, you're saying what they really mean is I want to come to therapy and I want you to wave your magic wand and somehow turn the world back to when my defense mechanisms were working better and I didn't see reality as clearly as I'm seeing it now. And one more thing I see in therapy is I say that when people come to therapy, sometimes it depends on who the person is, depends on what the issues are, what the circumstances are. But for some people, like, yeah, they really enjoy having, let's say, engaging discussions. They like to be able to talk. Well, I'm not going to interrupt. They like to have sometimes high level conversations and sometimes it's exciting, it's fun, it's, you know, invigorating and so on. And they look forward to coming back. That's great. But when they start not wanting to come back, I say that is a sign that we've hit on something that is uncomfortable. And if it's uncomfortable, then it's probably the right thing. You know, we're digging into place that you get. You didn't want to go. You haven't want to go and go for a long time. So I tell people that when you start not wanting to go to therapy, when suddenly when you would move heaven and earth to get to therapy, but now suddenly, well, you know what? I'm not sure if I can come this week. Well, why not? Well, Roger's tech guy said he's coming between the hours of 12 and four on Monday, and you never know. Maybe you won't come on Monday. So I should just book off the whole week just to be safe, Right? You're finding every excuse not to come. I say, A that's a sign again that we're hitting something deep and meaningful. And B, that's the best time, the most important time to make sure you do everything in your power to come. Because, again, we're we're making progress here and see, one thing I say is if there if a therapist finds that people are not wanting to come really early on, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're doing a great job. Maybe you just suck as a therapist. They don't want to come because they do want to be with you. So, you know, everything has two sides, at least two sides. So it just I want I want to give that therapist an excuse. I don't want the saying. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I'm so good after one session, people don't want to come. So I'm really hit, you know, deep. You know, maybe you just really suck. Yeah. And I hate to say, but that's that's certainly a possibility that that is the case. Or maybe they're the wrong fit or there's. There's any number of reasons. But ultimately, I love the point that you made there that usually when we as therapists, as as good therapists come against some resistance, it's probably because we've, you know, touched on on a nerve there. But as far as something you said earlier, the weaponization of therapy, I think that's a really important thing for us to highlight as well, that sometimes we see this amongst couples, for example, where they're coming to therapy to prove the other one's wrong or, you know, even individually they go and seek out therapy to tell their friend or their family member or their partner. Well, I did therapy and, you know, I'm fine now. It's you that's the problem. So that's certainly a big problem is a big issue as well, which really cheapens, I think, the the profession and and the reason for accessing therapy. Right. And I've always told told, especially with couples or families, they go, look, use me as a tool. I don't mind being called a tool. And that context don't use me as a weapon. And I've seen people do that, whether it's in couples or family therapy or individual therapy. And, you know, the person says, hey, what happened in therapy? And the person says, well, my therapist said And I say, look, I have a thick skin. If you know, if your partner or family member, whoever doesn't like what I say, I'm fine with that. But if you've misrepresented what I've said, whether the words or the intention, I say that's on you and that's not going to help you. So, yeah, we have to be we have to be honest and we have to have a let's say, a deep, full understanding of what we're doing and why we're doing or what we're saying. And again, a lot of people, you know, as you're saying, with with the pop culture and so on, a lot of people really are because they have access to so much information, they are taking a really complex or a concept or a situation that is fraught with potential, you know, damage and harm. And they don't have the ability to to fully understand it, to analyze it, to use it. Yet they're trying to it's like somebody who is like having a child to who can build bridges with Lego and then someone says, okay, well, let's have them build a real bridge, right? So I'm not trying to denigrate or insult anybody, but try to say that we have the special knowledge, but sometimes certain concepts or in content are, let's say they they have a different meaning depending on how you look at it or depending on your your experience with your knowledge with it. And if you use it the wrong way, it can do more harm than good. And I see so many people online doing that. They're oversimplifying something or they're using terms like empath, right? That thing drives me. If I just go on a quick tangent here. Yeah. Okay. That drives me crazy this term. Empath where people say, Oh yeah, I'm an empath and I saw it online. And what it really means is and I'm not I'm not shitting on anybody who has this. But really I say to people, if you, if you, if you think you're an empath, it just means you have poor boundaries. You have poor internal boundaries, like you have a hard time dealing with your connecting with or dealing with your own internal processes and you have poor boundaries. Other people, if someone tells you a sad story and you have compassion for them, maybe it makes you sad. That's perfectly fine. Even if you feel like you're crying with them, fine. Not not if you're a therapist, if you're a friend. But if it's so overwhelming that you can't sleep for days, that doesn't make you a better person. That means you're not able to tolerate and contain the discomfort that comes with being a good person, hearing somebody out and so on. And so then now you're making about you and so on. So and by the way, for some people it's because of experience. Maybe it's trauma, maybe it's poor attachment, whatever the case may be. And for others, it's also your mirror neurons. That's this. That's the that's empathy. So for anyone who doesn't know about mirror neurons, if somebody yawns, someone else is going to yawn. Usually that's your, you know. So if I see someone else doing something or going through something, my mirror neurons make me sort of on some level by proxy experience to some degree what they're experiencing. That's why if you're watching a TV show like Extras Extra, I think with Ricky Gervais or The Office, where someone's in a really awkward, uncomfortable situation, we cringe. We're not in that situation, but we're just watching it. We cringe. Those are mirror neurons. So some people have very low functioning. Those are people with no empathy, could be psychopaths, and other people have it on a very high level and their hypersensitive to that. So I'm not shitting on people like that that you have, but you have to recognize that. Anyway, I kind of went off on a tangent, but that's again the term empath, which is being glorified or being or being pathologized or whatever. Again, these are terms concepts, what have you, that are being promulgated by people who really in many cases just don't have the knowledge or wherewithal to communicate it properly. And I want to touch on something you mentioned earlier that, you know, we don't necessarily have special knowledge, but we do, right? You went to school for ten plus years. I went to school for seven years. Like we we certainly do have special knowledge which allows us to guide people through these things. I think that's part of the confusion arises from and not amongst us, of course, but I mean the general population, to use your bridge analogy, right? Everybody who plays with Lego can't build a bridge, but everyone feels and perhaps promotes the fact that just because we all have a mind, we're all experts, it's just certainly not the case. And with regard to empaths, it is. You gave such a great example there that, you know, we may have this amazing ability to feel what others are feeling, but it's about self-regulation and knowing what to do with those emotions when they come up, not falling apart. And another one that tends to drive me nuts when I see it online is the term trauma bonding People act like this is an example I just read the other day was people who went through a negative employment experience are trauma bonded with one another? Oh my gosh. No. Trauma bonding is reserved for, you know, pretty horrific shit that people go through and they feel a bond to their perpetrator. That's not the same thing at all. It's it's such a misuse of the word. And of course, there's other context. But just for example, those are two very different things. And the danger in this and we spoke about this in our words Have Meaning podcast, that when we misuse words like this and we we twist their meaning, they lose meaning. Exactly. They lose meaning and then it becomes harmful because now two different people think they're talking about the same thing, but they're not. So, yes, and I know you and I were talking before about some examples of where everybody is, you know, an expert, so to speak. Everyone, the therapist, if I can just say a couple of things about that. Many, many years ago, a former professor who became a friend of mine, he had written a book and I'm going to mangle it a little bit, but at the beginning of his book, he wrote something along the lines of he said, I don't tell people I'm a psychologist because if I see, you know, I think he told the stories on an airplane. And I was, oh, you're psychologist. So they said, let me tell you my problem. And they tell him the problem and they say, what do you think? And he tells them, you know, he's not analyzing them. Of course, he's not giving professional help. But he gave them an insight based on his knowledge and experience. And he told them that. And they're basically like, no, I don't think so. And then they told them, you know what? What you know what they thought about it. And he said, if you went to a doctor or a friend who happens to be a doctor and you say, hey, you know, I've got this pain in my shoulder, what do you think? And they tell you most people aren't going to go there or sorry, previously they didn't go right now since with COVID and everything and nope, not trusting the science now people are going to go, No, no, no. You know what I read on, you know, Google M.D. or whatever, you know, that it's I think it's this or that. So in fact, the analogy used to be apt where we say, you know, you trusted medical doctors, but not psychologists or psychotherapist. Right. But now it's, you know, nobody trusts the science. And it's good to be a critical thinker. It's good to be skeptical. Right. And it's good to say, well, you know what? Maybe I want to do a bit of my own due diligence and so on, but I'm just seeing such an arrogance. The old the Dunning Kruger effect, where there's a large gap, the people who know the least think that they know the most. And so far too many people now think that they are an expert because they have access to all of this on the internet, which is great that we have it. But, you know, look, if I have access to even AI if I, you know, people are think, oh, yeah, I'm going to write apps are going to write code, all this stuff. No. If you don't have the basic abilities to do these things, A.I. is just a great a magical tool that you're not going to be able to use or you can use it to to have a little chat with somebody online, but you're not going to be able to do these amazing things that people with more knowledge and abilities can do. So it's it's important to be humble enough to know what we do and do not know what we it can I do. Yeah, for sure. And it comes back to the the fact that access to information doesn't equate to knowledge. Right. So I feel that there is such an overabundance of information about these topics out there. But that doesn't mean that everybody who's consuming it has the ability to, you know, ingest that and make it be knowledge that they have. And what I mean is that, again, there's expertise and then there's just, you know, reading about something and developing some understanding of it. And as far as, you know, everyone being an expert, it's a really tricky one to back to what you were saying before, where two people can then look at the same situation very differently and perhaps erroneously, I'm reminded of the inkblot test, right, where, you know, you two people can look at the same thing. And there may be a general similarity and understanding, but you can indeed see two very different things. And back to the fact of, you know, not having the proper knowledge, if we're looking at things very differently, we're going to misinterpret it in that perpetuate it's misinformation in the world. Right. And I want to be very clear here. This is not us with skin saying why is everyone think they can do our job? It's not that. No. All right. And again, just like again, the humility part and I've said to people, I said to my students and patients some of the best quote unquote, psychologists, or let's say salespeople through experience, they learned to read people. They learned just tell them what they need to hear and so on, and they can sell really well. A lot of psychology was based on the old models from the business world, from the sales world and so on. So I'm not saying that, you know, again, as you say, we have through our education, we have specialized knowledge and everything like that. It doesn't make a special people. It means we have certain insights and certain information that others don't have. And in our in our field I know I know many people who are very knowledgeable, but they're terrible therapists. I know many people who have all the skills of, let's say, CBT, They can do it perfectly. They know exactly, you know, this issue. Here's how you do it, steps A through Z. But they are horrible, let's say therapists, because they can't connect with people and they don't, you know, they don't have the other tools that are needed. So I want to be very clear on this. This is not I'm not trying to elevate us and put us on a pedestal or anything like that. I think what people hear every every episode, you know, I have my little drinking game. Okay. I think humility is called for which anyone who knows me, they're going to laugh and think. That's the most ironic statement you can say, because I am not known for my humility, but through through, let's say, certain experience I've had not that long ago, it was basically forced upon me this need to be more humble to to, you know, to recognize, you know, what I know and do not know what can and cannot do. And, you know, so when I say humility again, I understand it might sound ironic for people who know me, but I am trying my best to embrace that concept. So I think that an argument perhaps to what we're saying is, well, isn't it a good thing that people are more aware of their mental health and more aware of of, you know, psychology and how that can impact people? Of course, it is. You know, the more we understand, the more understanding we have of others, the better. But like we talk about in many of our episodes, I think that what happens is, again, the over pathologizing of these different terms and disorders and people saying that they have something that they don't. And I think what that leads to is again, this you know, everyone look at me, I'm going through this, accommodate me, I'm a victim, and so on and so forth. So I think that that's the danger that maybe arises with this. Yes. And not only over pathologizing, but how about over glorifying. So one of the trends I've seen, I'm mortified is when people are saying, let me tell you about my latest borderline experience and, you know, whether they don't whether they have borderline personality disorder or not, especially if they do have it, This is somebody who is talking about something intimate, something maybe humiliating, shameful. And they're putting it out there because they're seeing other people talk about their supposed borderline moments and so on. And so they're you know, they're modeling it and they don't understand once it's out there, it's out there forever. And, you know, and to be able to talk about a therapist with that, that's great. Or even a close friend, right? So that you don't carry shame. But, you know, I have many issues of my, you know, up here and in my life that, you know, I might share with a friend, but I'm not going to tell the public, I'm not going to let that be used against me. And so I've seen that happen so often. That's terrifying. You know, again, it goes back to social media, goes back to the influence of of of when when we're social animals. So monkey see monkey do so so many people, if it's being normalized, if they see their favorite influence or talk about their personal experiences and they don't have the critical thinking capacity to say, well, they've made that decision, or maybe they're doing that for some marketing purpose or something like that, or they thought about it really well and they're prepared to take that risk and share that information if they don't have that reflection and that insight, you know, to be able to decide whether it's best for them as well. To do that in most cases is not right. They truly are perhaps setting themselves up for some really horrific consequences. Yeah, and that's such an important thing that, you know, everyone's situation is unique and certainly we can learn from others experiences. But my experiences doesn’t equal your experience and so on. And I think what this translates into in many contexts as well is, you know, the observation of celebrities and, you know, everyone jumping in and giving their $0.02 whenever there's something going on. But I'm especially noticing that it's coming from the psychological perspective that, oh, they must have X, Y and Z, and that's why they're behaving that way. Yeah, And that's why I tell people when they ask me, like they toss diagnoses around and I say, Look, a diagnosis is important for certain, you know, in certain context, for certain reasons or purposes, but to just throw a term out there and a to think that that does justice to the person or to the situation, or B, to think that everyone understands what you're saying. Like if someone says narcissist, well, there are many different aspects of narcissism. And are we talking about narcissistic traits? Are we talking about narcissistic personality disorder? There's different elements. So when we don't have precision, you know, I've talked about this with words have meaning. When we when we use these words without precision and without full understanding and without, let's say, appreciation for the potential impact, once again, we're doing more harm than good. Yeah. So speaking of specific examples in the media, I want to talk a little bit about it's been a couple of weeks now, but the situation with the leaked text messages with Jonah Hill and his ex-girlfriend. So it's my understanding that these were from 2021. But for anyone who isn't familiar, I'll read out some of what it entailed. So basically, the the premise of this was Jonah Hill was expressing to his girlfriend his distaste in some of her online presence and postings and things like that. And the Internet went insane. So I want to look at this from kind of two perspectives. I want to view it from the perspective of, you know, what some of the commentary made was. But then I want to look at it from the psychological perspective in terms of, you know, not necessarily Jonah, because we don't know him, but what would we do in the context of such messages with one of our patients or clients? So the message reads, and we're going to post this in the description of the the YouTube video as well, a link to it. But essentially, he says, plain and simple, if you need colon surfing with men boundaryless, inappropriate friendships with men to model, to post pictures of yourself in a bathing suit, to post sexual pictures, friendships with women who are in unstable and unstable places, and from your wild recent past beyond getting a lunch or coffee or something respectful. And then he goes on to say, So if if these criteria for you, then I am not the right partner for you. If these things bring you to a place of happiness, I support it and there will be no hard feelings. These are my boundaries for romantic partners. And then he goes on to say, My boundaries with you are based on the ways that these actions have hurt our trust. So I'm assuming he's referring to things that have happened in their relationship in the past, and these are the boundaries that he set. So some of the reactions that are out there and some of the responses that are out there in terms of, you know, this message exchange is that he's abusive, he's controlling, he's disgusting. I've read that some think that he was trying to make her smaller. These are not boundaries and this is control. This is emotional abuse. He's a misogynist and the list just goes on. There's tons and tons of opinions on this. So I certainly have my opinion. But, Oren, what do you think, first of all, about boundaries and them being set out that way and the response from the public about it? Okay. Well, once again, drinking game humiliation, humility, knot humiliation, humility. That's interesting slip there. So I because I think it was humiliating. So you said earlier about the inkblot test this and so many stories are the perfect every time it's like the Rorschach inkblot test. You can tell so much about a person based on how they interpret an ambiguous situation. This is ambiguous. We don't have all the context, and everybody who commented on this took you know, there's a couple of things going, throw a bunch of terms here and feel free to jump in if I go off too far. Okay. There's two types of projection. One is the defense mechanism projection where somebody cannot accept or handle their own negative or distasteful or violent or aggressive sexual whatever, thoughts, feelings, urges impulses. Right. So they disavow them, unconsciously, they repress them, and then they project to others. So I don't think that it must be other people. I'm not a racist. Everybody else is racist. Right. That's projection. And the worst form of projection is gaslighting. So that's one type. But the second type of projection is something we all do. And I tell this to my students all the time. So I say, Imagine, and I hope everyone will do this. Okay, this what? We have done this for a while. I'm going a little task here.

So imagine it's 2: 26:58

00 in the morning and you get a text. Because with text, all you're seeing is words. You're not getting any tone. Right. And it's funny, by the way, when I love when people are reading out emails or texts and they imbue the text with all this tone, like and then my partner said, Oh, don't you want that? I was like. They emphasize where they feel that there should be emphasis. Yeah, right. That's like I said no it's don't you want that. Okay that's all you can infer you don't know how they said anyway so, so the second type of so here's what I'm going to give the example I'm going to give that highlights the second type.

So it's 2: 27:32

00 in the morning and your best friend texts you. I been at the corner of certain street, you know, for the past 4 hours and my partner didn't show up at 2 a.m.. So I've been here from ten till 2 a.m. and my partner didn't show up. And then I say to students, I say, okay, what would your initial reaction be? What would your thoughts be? What would you text that person? Right. And I’ve asked this to thousands of people. It's fascinating to see their responses because that's a projective test. And most people it's interesting because some people say, I help to tell them what's wrong with you. Then even if they don't say that, you can tell in their facial reaction and their tone that their disgust at the person. Why would you wait for so long? Really? Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. A lot of people say that. My first thought is, Oh my gosh, are you okay? Okay. And that's again, it's fascinating that some people will do that. Are you okay? Right. Others are like, you know, what can I do for you? Do you want me to come get you or come over here and stuff like. Right. And it tells you about the person, right? Their response. And that's a whole the whole the crux of the projective testing, like the rorschach inkblot test and other tests that I used to use on assessments. So and that's a whole other episode we can do. But the point is and by the way, and then there's always a tiny percentage of people who would say, Oh, I hope the other person's okay. Like, did something happen? That's almost never the first response. So what I'm saying is people in that situation, they project their own experience, desires, wants, whatever, you know, into the other person's experience. And so instead of asking the right questions like, you know, tell me more what's going on, you know, stuff like that, they will respond to the person in the way that they would want others to respond to. That or probably based on their experiences. Right. So those who say like, oh, you know, what an asshole, why didn't they show up? I imagine that has something to do with what they've been through. Right? And that to be with a partner themselves, it can be that with family members, whatever else. Right? So exactly. And so what I tell people is the opposite of that, opposite of rejection is empathy. And that I ask people what's the best definition of empathy? And most people and if they don't get a go involving footwear, so people say, putting yourself in someone else's shoes. And I says, No, no, no. And I actually made that mistake when I was training with the I'll give his name, Dr. Leslie Greenburg. He was a professor and I trained under him for a while. He's one of the creators of Emotion Focus therapy. So one one day. So it's little bit of a tangent here, but one day I told him I was volunteering at a thing called the distress center. We would get calls from people and I was doing an overnight shift and I said, Look, I've heard so many terrible calls like, you know, so many horrible experience and so on. And, you know, I'm being empathetic, compassionate, whatever I said. But this one time a person was telling about this experience and for whatever reason, maybe because it's four in the morning, I'd been up all night dealing with this, who knows? But I said in that moment, they're telling me about this horrific experience. I said, I actually started feeling almost terror, like I felt their terror. I said, Oh, my gosh, I've never had such an empathetic response. And he looked at me and I can't do a South African accent, beautiful South African accent. But he just looked at me with disdain and said, That's not empathy. I said, What your that's not empathy. Feeling someone else's, you know, experience. I go, Well, then what is? And he said, Empathy is and this is example again. He said, It's not putting yourself in someone else's shoes. He said, It's trying to imagine what it must be like in that person's shoes. And he's saying is understanding their perspective so as not feeling their pain. But there are types of different types of empathy. Some people say three, I'm just going to say two. There is the emotional empathy. So yeah, where someone has a horrifying experience and you feel that, okay, that's emotional empathy and that's what the empaths feel, quote unquote empathy. And I always tell people, I say, if you're saying you're an empath or you have that type of empathy, I say and I say it like I'm sounding like a jerk when I say it. And I noticed patients this way I go, But congratulations. You have the emotional functioning of a baby because babies have emotional empathy. If a baby here's another baby cry, that baby cries. Okay. So I say that's that's just emotional. The cognitive empathy, the deeper level empathy, again, the trying to understand the other person's perspective.

So if someone texts me at four, 2: 31:33

00 in the morning, they've been there for 4 hours. I know my resort response. I know what I would be thinking about. I know what I would do in that situation. But the truly empathetic thing would be think, what about that person? What about their experience, about their psychological functioning, their personality? What what would what would make them stay there for 4 hours without judgment? It's not a judgment call. It's just I'm trying to understand what about them? Would, you know, allow themselves to subject themselves to that or allow them to subject themselves to that? You know, and what might they be thinking or feeling? Not what I would in that situation. Because when you put yourself in someone else's shoes, all you're doing is you're putting yourself in that context, right? But you're seeing it through your own lens, through that again. So because people think it's just semantics. No, these are very different statements. You know, again, it's imagining what it's like in their shoes, because. Empathy is not about us. It's about the other person. Exactly. It's about understanding the perspective. That's why I say, like, for example, narcissist, true narcissist. I say they can't see the other person's perspective. If you know, if it's if it aligns with how they would be in that situation, then they can predict, okay, but they don't think about the other person's actual perspective. What you know, again, what drives them, what are they got, what might they be going through and so on. Not what I think, but what, you know, try to understand what they are experiencing. Join us for the continuation of this conversation. Next week on Awake at the Wheel. As much as we love listening to ourselves speak, especially me, we would love to hear from you as well. So our emails are in the description below. If you would, please write to us with your questions, feedback, comments, topics that you'd like us to cover. We can do this together. The two of us, but it's much better if we do it together. So we look forward to hearing from you. And we are going to have a segment called Roundtable where we're going to discuss the the feedback and the questions and so on from our audience. And we will we will take it to the next level. We're going to help you be able to deal with some of these issues that you might be bringing us or it's going to be a topic for us to explore together. And we really look forward to building a community, a community of like minded people who want to do right by others, not just for themselves.