A lot of people said, No, that's ridiculous. I have my best friends. I don't need my partner to be my best friend, and so on and so forth. Not in a clinical setting and more of a casual setting. I joke that the two F's of married are important friendship, and I'll let people fill in the other blank. Welcome to Awake at the Wheel. In this episode, we're going to tie together three different topics that we've discussed in previous episodes. So we're going to revisit the overarching discussion of sexual dysfunction. So you may recall we had some guests on and we spoke about sexual dysfunction as it relates to medication. We're going to look at it more broadly as far as sexual dysfunction in the context of relationships, what we've seen in our practices and how that plays out. We're also going to revisit the topic of pornography. We talked a lot about what some of the drawbacks are. However, believe it or not, there are actually benefits to it, and this does relate to to sexual dysfunction in terms of providing it as a recommendation for treatment. And lastly, we're going to tie in the topic of just enhancing one's sexual health, education, knowledge, understanding. So with that, Oren where should we start? Well, how about just because in previous episodes we did talk about all the pitfalls of porn and the problems, So maybe we could start with, you know, the positives so that, you know, the balanced take on everything. Sure. Yeah. So I know one of the experts in the field does believe that the consumption of pornography can have some real benefits in terms of enhancing one's knowledge and understanding of sexual anatomy. So certainly from a clinical perspective, I can definitely agree with that. And with couples who are experiencing some difficulties in their sex lives, that is a recommendation that I've made and I know that you've made to some of your patients as well. Right. So. So I'm going to throw out a term that people can can look up if they want. It's called erotic philia and erotic phobia. And there's a scale that asks like 36 questions to see how erotic flick or erotic phobic you are. So essentially, if you look at the breakdown, so it is basically how much you love or are afraid of or uncomfortable about speaking about thinking about engaging in sexual matters around Ophelia, erotic phobia. So when there's research and it looks at these benefits of, let's say, pornography, you could look at it in two different ways. Either you could say based on compared to the norm, people who watch more porn maybe doing better than you know, that the norm in certain areas, for example, knowledge, comfort, you know, like knowledge of sexuality, knowledge of body parts and so on, how to please your partner, how to communicate and so on. So maybe it is increasing it in that regard, or it's the people who don't watch porn who just happen to be very erotic phobic. And we know that people who are erotic phobic, they have very bad outcomes when it comes to sexuality, for example, sexual dysfunction, sexually transmitted infections, unwanted pregnancies, because they're so uncomfortable with the topic in general that they don't avail themselves of all the material of the information, the resources that could help them have a healthier sex life. So we have to really just I mean, when you look at the research again, is it the benefits of porn or is the fact that the people who don't watch porn already have certain mindsets, perspectives, beliefs that are harming them or that are not really adaptive? And to that point, oftentimes in couples, one of the challenges in this recommendation that we make as far as porn, it can backfire because one partner in the couple may have negative beliefs or opinions about pornography and the other, you know, maybe is in favor of it has consumed have consumed it themselves. But where this can backfire is that, you know, let's say, for example, the one partner in the couple has experience watching pornography. They've learned a few things that are of interest to them, but their partner feels that that is shameful. That's disgusting. That's gross. How could you want me to do that? So rather than this being a useful treatment recommendation, it can, in fact, you know, potentially make things worse, make things more contentious in the relationship, and therefore impact their sexual life even more significantly. Right. And again, we're trying to make this a positive take on pornography because we've talked about this before. Yes. Yes. So keeping that in mind, the fact is, I think we talked about this in another podcast. You're never going to find two people who are perfectly aligned on any metric. One one's going to be more than the other, higher or lower than than the other. So when it comes to comfort around sexuality or adventurousness, wanting to go, you know, inside the bounds and so on, there's going to be a discrepancy. Now, you might be it might the discrepancy might be small enough that you're in the same window or the same band. But for the most part, you know, there's a good chance that one person is going to be considerably higher than the other. And so it's that person's job to not rush too quickly, to not push too much, because either it's going to repel the partner or the partner is going to take it. They're not going to say anything about it and they're going to harbor resentment. And, you know, that's going to have a negative impact on the sexual dynamics and the relationship. So for the person who's, let's say, ahead of the curve compared to your partner, be patient, try to get to where their level is and solely try to rise the raise the tide or bump them up a little bit. Don't push too hard. And for the person who is more inhibited, you know, you don't you maybe not as adventurous and so on. Please do understand. I've talked about this with many patients. The fact is, if you're in a relationship, sex is an important part of it. I've had many patients who felt ashamed, like, Oh my God, they're such a great partner in every other area. But this how could I lead such a great person? You know, only because they don't want to have sex, for example? Well, sex is a huge part of it. So I've told many patients, I said, look, I'm not advocating or I'm not supporting this, but there's a chance that if you're not able to rise higher again, I'm not talking about something that's that's going to harm them or that's going to cause them distress or anything like that. I'm just saying if your partner is more adventurous and you don't want to go on the journeys with them, there is a chance that either they're going to eventually leave you or they're going to step outside of the relationship to get those needs met with somebody else. And again, I'm not advocating for that. I'm just saying I tell them the truth. So you have to find a meet a happy medium somewhere that the both of you feel comfortable. And it's such a cliche, but the only way to navigate this properly is with proper communication. Each of you feeling safe enough to express your needs and to express what your boundaries are and how far you're willing to go. Giving some idea of timelines, giving some hope. If someone says, No, absolutely not. I'm never going to do this. But what do you expect from your partner? You're going to engender resentment in them and once again, they may leave you or step aside. But if you give hope and say, look, you know what, let's just do it this way. Give me some time, here's what I need to help me, you know, to to feel better in this regard. You know what? You know what? What are you doing to reciprocate? If I'm willing to do this in this area, I'm willing to explore. Are you going to help out more around the house? Are you going to take care of the kids or are you going to, you know, say nicer things to me? Right. There's got to be some reciprocity involved. Yeah. And and to your point, we've spoken in other episodes about sexuality as far as dating, or at least I think we've focused on it more in that respect. But I think it is abundantly important for people to understand the importance of a healthy sex life in a marriage. And yeah, people are uncomfortable about it. They don't talk about it in the beginning of the relationship. So why 30 years later, are they going to all of a sudden be comfortable about it? They're unfortunately not. And that's, you know, what we see in our clinical practices. It's it's startling the number of sexless marriages that are out there and the lack of vocabulary, ability, communication that couples have. So I guess, you know, maybe it's important for us to address the question that listeners may have as far as well, why do we recommend pornography? It's not necessarily strictly for the purpose of arousal, but, you know, when people have been together for 20, 30, 40 years, things change, tastes change, physiology changes, what arouses them changes? And, you know, the list goes on. So not only is it for the, you know, the obvious arousal that they will likely achieve by watching other people having sex, but it's to learn and to enhance their, you know, sexual vocabulary interest. And you know, try different things, Try new things. Right. And again, it's it's a bonding experience. You're watching something together. It's like watching a TV show together, for example. Now, you may not be watching the porn for the plotlines, but, you know, even if you're laughing, even if you're in TV, if you look, I hope, my gosh, I had no idea that so many people had a foot fetish. Whatever it is, it's helping bring you together on some same page. And if if that is the way to help facilitate communication or connectedness, great. And but, you know, and I tell people that, again, if you're the more adventurous one, I say, look, I don't care what your tastes are with porn, okay? It's up to, you know, let your partner kind of choose. Let them you know, you've maybe gone through Pornhub or whatever a billion times. They maybe have not let them navigate, let them kind of lead the pace and everything like that. And you get you're learning more about the person. You're learning. Like you had no idea that they're into this, this or that. So again, taking any context and not just limiting it to that specific context, but seeing if you can broaden it once again, are you writing it to better communication, knowing more about your partner? Maybe if find out something about their past, who knows? Like so there's many benefits that you can derive from porn beyond, as you say, just simple arousal. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about, sexless marriages, because I'm sure you've heard this line from patients before, as have I. I love my partner, but we're not having sex. And it's it's often prefaced with why I love them. And it's almost this this presupposition that if you love someone, then you must want to have sex with them. But I think that people couples need to understand that, you know, there's so many different layers to it. And when it comes to the vitality of you that comes from having a healthy erotic sex life, doing the dishes, cleaning the house, arguing about pickups and drop offs that kills that eroticism. And I think as well, you know, the whole topic of, well, I love my partner. That's great. You also love other family members. And I don't say this to to be weird, but oftentimes that love for one's partner can be overgeneralized into the same feeling of love that they have for other family members, which in turn I think kills that sex drive or that sexual attraction. Right. And I may have talked about this in other podcasts. Sternberg's triangle theory of love. Not sure if I did. Okay, so just to remind people that it's not the greatest model, I won't say everything, but you basically talked about three points of the triangle. There was passion, intimacy, which is more emotional intimacy and commitment. And so you have to understand, yeah, of course there's lots of passion at the beginning. You hope not always, but you hope at the beginning of a relationship. Lots of passion. And then as you get to know the person more, there's a more emotional commitment, intimacy, more connectedness. Then you're committed to the person. And as Malini is saying, that if you have that emotional intimacy, or at least the commitment, this is your family, okay? You know, you love them in the broader sense. Like, well, they're my family. Who? Right. Yeah, Yeah. That passion part of the of the triangle can so easily be depleted or ignored. So it's really important and it doesn't naturally come back. It doesn't just happen for some people. It does. Maybe the person was in a depressed state for a while. Maybe they were stressed out at work. Maybe there was too much time focused on work, kids, something a school or something else like that. And then when that was kind of taken care of, then there was more space to have, you know, a libido or to have time to spend with your partner and so on. But it doesn't necessarily happen that way. There has to be a discussion about it. There has to be a tactful, a a constructive communication about it rather than kind of complaining rather than blaming rather than guilting or shaming. So, you know, so it's really hard after ten, 20, 30 years of being in this kind of this was that whole kind of complacency, kind of like we're a family unit. All right. So it can be difficult, be hard. And as soon as you bring up the discussion while you've shown you shine a light on what the problem is. And so many couples don't want to talk about that problem, whether it's about sex. Well, of all the problems, sex is often the one that people are least likely to talk about. It's uncomfortable. It's very personal, very direct. People take it the wrong way in most cases. And so I can understand that it's very uncomfortable to talk about, but it's something that it's going to have to be it has to be discussed, because otherwise, as we've talked in other podcasts, you are going to basically make a perfect situation where one of you or both of you is going to be stepping outside of the relationship and even if it's not sexual, even if it's virtual only, even if the person never sex, but because sex, emotion, sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, these are interconnected. So if you're not gay and you find someone else online or at work or some, you know, somewhere else where they get you, they make you feel better about yourself, you know, And libido. Freud talked about libido. That does not just the sex drive. Libido is the life energy. So if your sex drive is dead because you haven't had sex for so long, and then you meet somebody who just makes you feel more alive, that can easily get intermingled with that sex drive and you can feel these sexual feelings for someone, even if you don't act on them. But the point is, all that energy, all that arousal and everything is being directed in the wrong place. And that's what happens when you don't have that honest, open discussion with your partner. It's going it's based on my anecdotal evidence, based on with I've literally abducted thousands of people through my students and and patients. Right. I just see it happen all the time. And among people that you wouldn't expect, you wouldn't look at this person think, oh, my gosh, this person is having this wild and crazy sex life, whether virtual or in real life, with somebody else outside of the relationship. You cannot always predict. And again, if I give you a lineup of all my patients who've done that, some people you would look in them go, Yeah, I can see them doing it. Okay, but there are so many others, you would have no idea that's how powerful sex is. Because again, it's not just with the sex. It's about the connectedness that social, emotional, interpersonal connectedness. Yeah. So I bet you some listeners are are thinking themselves. That's that's great Doc, That's great, Malini, like communicate. Okay how, how do we communicate about that? So I think that a very important precursor to that communication is a great deal of self-reflection. So a couple of things I'll say here. So when it comes to stepping outside of the marriage, you mentioned a couple of things there. I think that seeking out, again, that vitality, that feeling of being alive is incredibly important. And if someone isn't getting that in other areas of their lives, yeah, it can translate into a sexual relationship, even if the intention wasn't there and even if it wasn't really about sex. I think a second important piece of self-reflection needs to be, you know, if someone is stepping outside of the marriage, what is it that they're seeking? And we may have talked about this a little bit in our previous episode about this topic, but it really bears repeating as far as if you're stepping outside of the marriage, is there something within yourself that is lacking that you were hoping to achieve by stepping out? So, you know, whether this is, again, that vitality, you know, having experiences that you didn't have before, any number of things. But again, that self-reflection piece is very important. And as far as, you know, broaching the subject, I think that that's probably what people have the hardest time with is not really knowing what to say, because I think that there's some fear that comes along with, well, I don't want to hurt my partner's feelings or I think there's even some cultural considerations that we haven't even touched on here that, you know, in some cultures, in many cultures, you just don't talk about sex with your partner. Sex is a mechanism. You do it, you get it done and that's that. But the fact is, regardless of the cultural aspects of it, we're all human. We still all have the same physiological and emotional needs. Right. And just one thing about those needs, talking about those needs and you talked about is there something lacking in yourself? Well, one of the top things that is lacking in people's lives is validation. Okay? Now, I mean, like self validation. Do I feel worthy enough? Have I accomplished, if I may, leading a fulfilled life? So if you're with a partner and again, there's stagnation in that relationship, whether it's about sex or something else, right? It can make someone really feel like I am missing something. And instead of looking at saying, okay, well, what can I do to get that sense of validation or esteem right by myself? Right? They look at the other person and they're like, Well, they don't validate me enough. They don't make me feel good enough. Right? So that kind of resentment and we've talked before about the resentment and what it does to people that that can make it easier for them to then step outside of the relationship and not feel as bad about it. Because instead of saying, well, I'm doing this because I feel bad and I'm not looking at other ways to make myself feel better, it's more about they're making me feel bad. Therefore it's okay for me to seek recourse elsewhere. Right? So and that's all of that is the antithesis of what you were just talking about, which is broaching a uncomfortable topic with your partner, the person you're supposedly committed to, because you feel all this resentment toward them and they're making me feel this way. How do you feel safe? How do you feel comfortable enough to raise a topic that you know is uncomfortable for each of you and very likely going to cause the other person to feel resentment towards you? Because even if both of you are miserable and you're living this just again, this just stagnant basic life, right? You can lie to yourselves and try to portray it as something that it's not. As soon as somebody goes, hey, we got to talk about that giant sexless elephant in the room, Right? That's when You’ve poked a hole through the illusion. And now people are really uncomfortable. I've talked about this in so many other contexts. Doesn't just have to be sex in so many different ways where people just there's this collusion of silence. You both know something's wrong, but or, you know there's something's wrong, or you do something you shouldn't be doing or there's something going on here. There's another layer that you're ignoring or pretending that this is what's happening in reality. There's a subtext down here, and no one wants to talk about it and it's okay. We can do whatever as long as we pretend this is not really happening. As soon as you start talking about this, everything shifts, Shit gets real. And that reality is very uncomfortable for people. And so many people will do anything in their power to avoid such discomfort. And yeah, and I've said before, and I'll say it again, that's uncomfortable. But what's more uncomfortable is getting a divorce. So and you know, not to boil everything down to sex, but our point is that it is incredibly important to have, you know, healthy communication, healthy emotional intimacy and healthy physical intimacy. So back to my question. As far as, you know, how can this topic be broached? I think that it's important for us to maybe highlight what we do actually recommend to real patients and clients. So, you know, in relationships where 20 years have passed and they haven't so much as held hands, it would be unreasonable to suggest, you know, start watching porn and, you know, see where yet that that's a little bit too much. That's maybe a little too difficult to start out with. So small acts of physical intimacy to develop emotional intimacy. So holding hands, sitting closer together, looking at each other in the eyes, that's one of the biggest things that I notice in couples therapy. And I'm sure you have as well, is couples are sitting, you know, stiff as a board staring straight ahead at me or at the wall. And oftentimes I will tell them, like literally turn towards each other, look at each other. And at first I notice a lot of discomfort and then something shifts. So I'm sure you've seen that. Yeah. And especially when it's online because like, whether it's in the office or online, these are two different spaces. But when it's online, they're both looking at the camera, they're looking at me, and I say to them, Actually, I get it. I know you're telling me because I'm here. I say, But again, look at the other person. Tell them directly. And I see the exact same thing that you see as well, and especially if it's a discussion they've already had. And I'll say, I know you've already had this discussion, too, with the two of you. Let's try it again. Let's see if we can get something else happening and you're right, there is that discomfort. And we talk about like trying to make more eye contact and everything. Well, look at any family word. Guilty is this is well, at times, look what happens when you're all sitting at the table or it's just the two of you sitting there on your phones. You're not making eye contact. And by the way, we talk about hand-holding or bit more physical intimacy, right? You don't know how. I mean, I'm sure you have. You do. I've had so many couples or one person who says, I tried that and the person flinched or they got uncomfortable or. Yes, if you just suddenly do it without saying anything, you know, you're breaking the routine. It is a bit uncomfortable. Don't hold that against them. Or either say, hey, you know, explain to them, you know, what, I just want to hold your hand. That's all right. Well, why I love you. You know, I just want to you know, I appreciate you. Something like that and you and because so many people, again, they almost checked out. They want an excuse whether to actually leave or, again, to check out emotionally and to do whatever they want to do in their own life to just disconnect from their partner they'll use. That's my validation for for doing what I'm doing. That's my excuse. So, you know, give the person the benefit of the doubt. Understand that you're both, you know, in this in this limbo, basically in this, you know, of this complacent, stagnant life. Right. And if one of you is trying to make the change, which is great, it takes a bit of time for the system to adjust. So, you know, again, giving them a period of grace, try that. And, you know, even communicating with them. And again, just focusing on the fact is this all female. So what if someone does do that? But I've had a number of patients, I'm sure you have. So let's say they have tried to have more intimacy, physical talking, whether it's sexual, anything else like that. And the other partner is just they've already checked out and they they don't want to do it. What do you say to them? And they say. Well, what I yeah. So this does come up and perhaps this is not the response that you specifically were looking for. But what I do is I go back to self-reflection. Well, why is it that you think that your partner is responding that way? Has sex become something transactional over the years? Is it that every time you hold her hand, it's that she you expect that she's going to have sex? So I think that and I'm picking on men here because I do often hear this from female patients and clients, But that route that that rebuffing that that pulling back usually comes from because I know what's next. I know that he's not just holding my hand. I know that it's because he wants sex. Yeah. Okay. And and that's a really important point. And I want to you when you say that to the person to say let's say to the man, do they kind of like do they rebuff you or do they reflect on in the. Oh my gosh, I thought about that. That depends on the client. I would say most of them, because the ones that I will broach such a sensitive thing with, I usually have a good rapport with. They will take that step back and think there's a little bit of self-reflection, there's a little bit of blame on her because, you know, she's cold, she's this, she's that. So I would say it's it's 5050. Okay. And I'll say some things that, again, people don't like when they hear it, but I tell people I don't deal with fantasy. I deal with reality. And I like to lay out the different realities for them because I'm not going to tell anyone what the right thing to do is. I just want them. This therapy should be the safe space where they can discuss the darkest, the worst, you know, kind of things, and then look at and go, what is going to be best for me and in this case, for your partner, for your family, whatever. So so in the case where, you know, first of all, again, the part about the reflection, it's so important and when I say that to my to my patient, I go, look, I'm not saying that you're the only problem here. There's two of you. I say, But the thing is, I'm only talking to you and I'll tell them. I say, If your partner were here based on what you've told me, if this is, you know, if they're telling me the same thing, here's what I would tell them, that I want them, you know? But again, the point being, they're not here. I'm only talking to you so we can only focus on what you're going to do. And if you are able to reflect, take complete ownership of what you've done to kind of kill the romance in the relationship and everything like that and have come with humility and respect and you either outright acknowledge it or through your behaviors and so on, kind of show this, that there's a shift and expect that there will be resistance. Because any time a system changes, there's always resistance. But if you're persistent with it, the system should change if you do all of that. Okay. Right. And if however you do all that and nothing changes and your partner still is just like they're having none of it, they totally check it out. Then we have those difficult discussions. Do you talk with your partner and say, Hey, let's open up the relationship? And you know, we have a loveless marriage, but we still have kids or we have shared investments or whatever, but I'm going to do my thing. You do your thing, and what's the parameters around that? Okay. Do you just cheat on them without telling them? Do you do you leave them? Like you have to have that discussion because so many people will just live in fantasy and they're just lying to themselves. And, you know, again, when you lie to yourself, you're not doing yourself any favors. No. No. So as far as the communication, I suppose the the takeaway from this is we acknowledge that it's an uncomfortable conversation, but it's it's better than the alternative, right? Things can't just be left to fester and rot in the relationship and hope that it's going to go away or hope that it's going to get better. But as far as, you know, people educating themselves more, I think that we should maybe talk a little bit about that as far as like how, again, people in long term relationships, how do they learn a bit more about, you know, what they what they like, what they don't like, what what else is out there that maybe they haven't tried? So I always tell people I tell people, but they also come back and tell me, especially with the Internet, that there are so many resources out there, whether it's a blog, Reddit, X, you know, whatever it is. And so that with, you know, with Google or whatever, you can always find something. Now there's what you find so much of it is garbage. So buyer beware. But I always tell people that instead of just coming cold to the press say, hey, you know, we got a problem in the relationship, or Hey, I want to open up the relation or whatever it is, find what looks like, and you’ll ahve to do your own research, find what looks like say a credible, compassionate source and that this source, whatever it happens to be, whether it's a video, a blog, you know, Reddit forum or whatever, that you make sure that it's speaking the language or that the person who's doing the communicating is someone that your partner will be more inclined to go, Hey, you know what? This makes sense, or I like this person or whatever, because if you have an Andrew Tate type person that you know is going to just totally piss off your partner or scare them and say, Listen to him. He's got some really good ideas, even if. It's not going to be. Productive. Yeah, there's a good it's I always tell people what you say is irrelevant. It's what the other person hears. So find those sources and again, and if it appeals to you, great. But if you know it's not going to be appealed to your partner, you're not really, you know, doing the best that you can do. So there are so many books, whatever articles find that and then just say, hey, let's talk about that. Right. And because it's always and this is what I do with patients, I'll tell them other patients stories with I always tell them I distort the story and there's always confidentiality, but I tell them it's so much easier to see your own life, your own experiences to someone else's. Because when you're when someone talks about you, your defense is automatic. We go up. You need to protect yourself. You want to be seen a certain way. But if you're watching somebody else who has a similar situation, the defenses are down when they're seeing it. So you can see it more honestly. You can gain some insights from that. You can see I see new perspectives. So I always say bring these other resources, use those as the starting point. And if you say, look, I really got to talk to you. We have a you know that then they're already getting the defenses up. But if it's kind of like, you know, almost casually, hey, you know what? I saw this program or whatever else, maybe something the two of you can read or watch together, Right? Whatever the case may be, you introduce it in a very casual, almost sideways way so the defenses aren't up automatically once their foot is in the door. Now it's easier, but once your foot is in, they're wanting to open the doors or what's open the door. It's a bit easier for them to now hear what you have to say about yourselves. But start with this outside source and then kind of, you know, merge it into your own situation. That's that's the recognition, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So two really things she really important things to emphasize there is come equipped to the conversation with you know information to share and be lighthearted because you know while on the one hand we're talking about how important sex is it's also fun it's also recreational and within the confines of a marriage can be fun! So approaching the conversation as such will be a lot more constructive than like you said, you know, all we need to have a talk and turning it into a big issue. So next, I think it's important for us to talk a little bit about, you know, what some of these sources of sexual dysfunction can be and what we've seen. So like I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, we've talked about some of the side effects that occur from medications. And we have a whole episode on that that people can check out. But I think it's also important to look at some psychosocial factors that can contribute to lack of desire, lack of sexual intimacy in marriages. So I mentioned, you know, the day to day mundane stuff that can take place. That's certainly a buzzkill, depression, anxiety. Those are certainly things that we encounter in the practice that that do inhibit one's sexual desire or sexual function. But what are maybe some less common or less known things that you've come across that can interfere with people's sexual desire and function? Well, let's go with porn, okay. That we talked about this in the previous episode. I won't go into too much detail, but people have an unhealthy relationship with porn. That can be one. So it's the feeling of maybe we talk to you about the validation. If you feel and I'm pretty sure I've talked, we talk with another podcast about resentment. I can't stress this enough. Whatever the source is, if you feel some form of on, let's say, unregistered untapped resentment towards your partner, you're not even aware of it. Maybe because if you have, this was embarrassing. I know I said it before, but this thing is so hard for people understand. Resentment is simply the feeling that you've you've rung me some way and I'm upset about it. And if you've wronged me, my brain tells me I need to get you back somehow. Whether it's aggression, whether it's nastiness, whether it's withdrawing it with withholding things. The fact is that if I if I'm feeling resentment towards you, if I feel that you've wronged me, I feel you owe me, they get back at you. How am I going to overcome my negativity? My, my, you know, my my anxiety, my discomfort, whatever it is, how am I going to motivate myself to overcome this mountain when I feel like, why am I doing this for this person who I feel is wrong? Me What are they going to do? So I'm telling you this sense of resentment. I find it just interferes so much with all aspects of the relationship, especially sex, because especially with that, especially for a woman or man, if he's in the less dominant role, like having somebody impose themselves on you. Right. It can feel like, oh my gosh, this person is just like manhandling or, you know, I just just, you know, they're just using me almost. It feels like that when you don't have that emotional intimacy with the person, like, oh, you know, they're getting off. And I'm not really enjoying things like that. Right? So and there's nothing more personal, nothing that makes you more vulnerable than sex being naked, being with another person, you know, especially when they're the dominant one. So again, what I find that resentment more than anything else is the number one thing that couples have to deal with. And because everything regresses all to sex, no matter what the other issues are. Sorry, resort to resentment. I'm sorry. Everything regresses down to resentment no matter what. The other issues that we can bring up are. In the end, it usually fuels this sense of resentment towards your partner, and people are afraid to talk about resentment, but just own it. Just again, I feel, oh, by the way, I always say to people, I should say this very clearly, resentment is often unconscious, unfair and often irrational. So if you can acknowledge that and say, you know what? Hey, even if you don't tell the partner that you resent them, if you say to yourself, I resent my partner, but a, again, it could be unfair or irrational and B, all the stuff I feel toward them, they are probably feeling something toward me as well. I can't deny that. So I can't just impose my will on them. I have to recognize that maybe they have to overcome their resentment as well. So I have to come there with grace, humility, own up all my own shit and then talk to them about that and get to whatever the problem happens to be. If you come with that perspective, you have a much better chance of being able to, you know, to to overcome it. And by the way, one final thing with that, because I've worked with many couples where I talk about that again, think about everything I've done wrong toward my partner, because then it's not just about you. You, you, you, you like you're in your mind, right? And then second, I see also that switch and think of all the things that you're grateful for. I know it's a cliche, but you come with gratitude and. Right. So anyway, I just went through that. There's. Yeah, yeah. And I think this, you know, essentially is what you're talking about. But I think we'll take it a layer deeper as far as looking at the, the importance of having and maybe this is an unpopular opinion and I say this because I thought that this was commonly agreed upon, but doesn't seem to be based on what I've read online from others. But I think having a baseline over friendship is really important. So, you know, we've talked about having each other's back and knowing that there's that unconditional feeling of they have your back. I think that oftentimes that is missing and seems to be a common element in these sexless, sexless relationships is that they don't have that that closeness, that friendship. But to be tangential to that, I read a post online, there is a question being posed of do you think that married couples should be best friends? And it seemed pretty split. A lot of people said, No, that's ridiculous. I have my best friends. I don't need my partner to be my best friend, and so on and so forth. Not in a clinical setting and more of a casual setting. I joke that the two F's of married are important friendship, and I'll let people fill in the other blank. But I think the two do go hand in hand as far as having, again, that emotional bond, that emotional closeness. So what are your thoughts on, you know, having a baseline friendship and being best friends? Yeah, that's tricky. Being friends for sure, I think is essential. The part about being best friends. Yeah, it's it depends that you say exclusive best friend versus different best friends can give you different things. So. Right so definitely being friendly, feeling that you can share with a person that you can trust in that you want, you want to spend time with them and everything. I think that has to be the case. But you know, anything can go too far. And I've seen codependent couples or that they spend all the time with each other. Sure. Yeah. That's not healthy. Right. So anything we're talking about, of course, we have to understand, we're not talking about going to extreme. So again, even friends, the fact is, I mean, the funny thing is males and females, what constitutes a really healthy, deep connected friendship can be totally different for a male and a female in general. Of course we're talking in general, right? And then individually, everyone has a different sense of what do I want in a friend? What do I want in a partner? You know, how much time do I need with them and everything. And it's amazing if you if you actually sat down any couple, whether one month together or 30 years and you ask them these kinds of questions, like how many times per week do you think your partner wants sex, how much time per day do you think your partner wants to sit and talk with you? How you know what you want? What do you think your partner wants you to do in this situation? If you're complaining, you know, how do you how do you think they want you to react If you did that for all these different metrics, like people are not going to be perfect, it's not reasonable. So everybody's different in that regard. So again, to get back to the question about being best friend, I'm not so sure about that. Depends on what you consider to be best friend OK? But again, to being someone who you are really, really friendly with, whatever that means to each of you and yet to each of you, and to recognize that each of you has a different definition. Maybe that to me is it's a bit more attainable, let's say. And I think in part my my theory of the two FS of marriage come from the fact that some people treat their friends better than they treat their spouse. All right. So sometimes when I now in a clinical setting, when I ask clients, you know, are you friends with your partner? And there's there's often a perplexed look on their face because it's like, well, no. And I will often bring up the example of, well, you know, do you treat your best friend this way? Would you speak to your best friend this way? No. So I you know, while I completely hear what you're saying, on the other hand, I think that people should again reflect and ask themselves questions like that. As far as well, if I wouldn't treat a friend this way, why am I treating my partner? Who is this person who is should be one of the number one people in my life? Exactly. You know, and we know that's a cliche. You know, you hurt the ones that you love. We know that people treat family members differently than they do. Right. But and to keep that in mind, to go just because that's normal or common doesn't make it healthy. Right. And that goes back to, again, this idea of thinking that. So I don't know. I don't know if it is from podcast, but this is like a simple intervention. We always try to say, what can people do? So here's like a basic intervention that if you do it, it can shift your perspective completely, which is it goes back to this whole idea about taking ownership of what you yourself do. But in this case, this is more about gratitude. Again, I think we've talked about it before, but if your partner does something that drives you crazy, everyone's first reaction instinctually is the way that schemata work is that if you think of one thing, suddenly it depends how bad it is. Like you're going to think of all these other stuff. Okay, Now, it might not be a conscious thought of all these different things your partner does, but the emotions that go along with that, they get triggered so that now this one tiny can something like why my feeling so upset with this person? Well, because consciously or unconsciously, a cascade of other memories of all these other things that your partner does that make you upset or drives you crazy, whatever that's happening. So what to do in that situation? Train yourself. As soon as you have that reaction, stop and go. Think of at least one thing that I'm grateful for about toward my partner for or one great trait about them or attribute or even if it's all about you, you know, something just something that that attracted you to them in the first place and just work on that. It's not going to happen automatically. That's not the instinct. The instinct is to go within the wave or with the wave of whatever emotion you're feeling. So if that's hostility, resentment, anger, bitterness, whatever, you're going to feed into that. But if you stop it, go, No, I got to tether myself to this gratitude. You have a chance a not to succumb to all this other crap, and B to see your partner in a different perspective, that more positive perspective. And then you have a better chance of not building up this mountain of resentment. Absolutely. And yeah, as far as what people can do about this, I'm going to build on what you said, and perhaps because we work together, I have the same opinion of you or as you on this. But I'm reminded of John Gorman's work as far as the positive interactions. I think he says something about the 5 to 1 ratio. We now think it's actually 10 to 1 ratio as far as for every one negative interaction, you need to have 5 to 10 positive to outweigh it. So it's really important for us to consciously and purposefully remind ourselves of the good things that are in our relationships and in our interactions. And also in Gorman's research. Note I might not be quoting it completely correctly, but and certainly not in a delusional or unhealthy way. But his research did find that those couples who hold their partner on a pedestal tend to be the happiest. So again, not in a delusional way and not ignoring abusive behavior. But if you hold your partner in high regard, those negative things aren't going to feel as negative or as impactful. If you generally think that they're a great first. Right. And again, that's what we call the positive illusion, not delusional, but just see them in a more positive light. So it's very important and to be realistic. All right. Because when you first date somebody, it's you're not dating or you're not seeing the person for who they are. You're seeing them for who you think they are, for who you need them to be, who you want them to be, that's not their fault. I mean, sure, it's partly their fault because everyone sees at the beginning because they put on the best presentation. Right. Right. But whatever you think that they are and what they're going to do for you and so on won't take ownership because maybe you had unrealistic expectations. And so you you know, you held on too high a pedestal and they didn't live up to it. Well, shift that and say, but wait, there are things that they do do as you said, like you can find that gratitude, put them back on the pedestal, maybe make it a bit of a smaller pedestal. But, you know, put them back. And at the very least and this is very important, again, if I resent my partner and I think that they've wronged me, why am I going to do all this stuff? Why am I going to look at them in a positive light? Well, because the end, it's going to benefit you. It's all self, it's self-interest. Okay. And I've said this so many times, self-interested or self-serving does not have to be selfish if you're not harming anybody, if you're considerate, if you're doing it for your benefit and through your benefit, you can also benefit others, including in this case, your partner. Right? You're not doing anything wrong. But start with how is this going to help me? So having gratitude for your partner, seeing them in a better light and all these things, these will benefit you. And that's what in the end that's what you should be doing. But once again, benefit yourself so that you can do right by others. And another thing I think we've talked about this in other podcasts. It's so important. All species, including humans, we we function based on reciprocity. You have to can't just take you got to give. And if you're give, give, giving and you think that your partner is not giving back enough, have that communication. Okay? And but before you do that, maybe you're giving in one way and your partner's giving in another way. Recognize that? So again, before you start saying, well, here's what you're failing to do or Here's what I'm lacking or whatever. Try your hardest to see. What am I getting from my partner that I might not have recognized? What do they do? How are they making my life easier? How are they enhancing my sense of self or whatever else like that? Look for that and then also think, Wait, if I were my partner shoes and if they were saying, I don't feel that reciprocity, what can I do more right to try to make them feel it? Yeah, there is this equal give and take as maybe you're being really selfish in many things. And by the way, I always tell people the reciprocity, even if you can't, I mean, it's never going to be perfect, even if in, in actions it's not perfect words expressing gratitude, genuinely saying I am so lucky to have you or thank you so much for this or that. When you're in a long term relationship, those things kind of go out the window many times, right? To bring these simple things back. It's so it sounds so relationship therapy 101 okay. But it there is a lot of merit to it. Simple kind words. And I'll let you jump in, Malini, but afterwards I did we talk about the five love languages before. Okay, so it was your previous podcast about the love languages and just recognize that maybe for you words might be what you need to hear, but maybe the partner wants actions. Maybe they want it somewhere. So just finding out again what will resonate most with your partner. Start with what you know will work, but then try your best to find what the partner needs from you. Again, if hearing I love you every day, it's like white noise to your partner, then show it some other way. But you get this, that idea of I'm not just take, take taking, I'm bringing something to the village. What can I do to make this dynamic, this relationship better? And to that point, I would say, you know, again, within the confines of a healthy, loving relationship, reframing your actions and this should be reciprocal, but reframing your actions of how can I make my partner's day better? What can I do to improve their life? And if both partners have that attitude, I think good. I know a beautiful relationship would result. Exactly. And by the way, this is because we talked earlier about porn and everything and I can't remember we talked about this in another podcast. I think I did. But one thing just to kind of bring that in, what, because one of the five love languages is quality time and the most ambiguous what I think I said in the previous podcast, sitting on the couch watching TV together for one person, that's quality time for the other person. That's garbage, right? So, right, So there's all these different types of quality time. But bringing back to what we were talking about again, I mean, I said this before, if you want to bring a bit of a spark back in the relationship because it's not going to happen organically right after ten, 20, 30 years, whatever that spark, that passion, that lust. But it goes away because of all these other things. But it can be reignited. So one shared experience that you can do is you find those two ways you can do it. Either you go online and you find sex toys, oils, whatever, online, and you, you know, together you purchase them, you see, or they'll be fun or whatever. Okay. Or Even better, you go to a reputable sex store, not some sleazy place or whatever, but a really nice place where you're not going to be ashamed and have fun there, ask questions of each other of the sales group. But that's why it's good to be in a reputable place. You don't want someplace where they're gonna make you feel like crap. Okay, go where you know. Anyway, you do your search in your town if you have that. And if you don't have anything like that, then online, find something like that. Okay? Or some other naughty thing that you normally wouldn't think of doing. Find ways to bring some fun excitement into the relationship, a bit of rolling, whatever. I think we've talked about this in previous podcasts. Okay, But just understand that A) these things again, all that kind of passion and everything just naturally dies down over time. B) it can be reignited. Okay. And C) so important don't expect your partner to do it. Don't say, well, they're not doing or I know they're going to resist it. I've had so many patients. Take the lead. Why? Why do they have to be your partner? Well, I know and I've had so many people, by the way, when they come into couples therapy or they come individually. Right. And then I say, is this something, you know, maybe you'd like to bring your partner in and, you know, to have couples therapy. And I've had so many people say, my partner would never go for this, this, this or that surprise. Yes, they would. And the biggest thing, they wouldn't go for it. They wouldn't even come to the couples therapy. The partner comes in and they're the better partner in the therapy because it's like, yes, they wanted to do this all along, but you guys just didn't have the right language or the right energy to between the two of you to facilitate this. And to that point and to our listeners, I'll emphasize like these again, these are things that we both recommend in our practices. And I've actually had couples say we've had the best sex of our life because of these things. So, you know, this isn't a joke. This is all real stuff that people can pretty easily implement. If you can just break through that discomfort of the initial conversation. But that said, listeners, as always, we want your questions, we want your comments, we want to know what you think about this and with that or in any last. Well, I hope that, you know, we didn't get in so, so much detail about porn and everything, but we did I hope we did help, let's say, present this idea that whether it's porn, whether it's toys, whether it's changing the language, whatever that find novel, find different ways to change things up in the relationship. If they're not going the way that want them to go. And to understand that this is again, all of this is natural when you're in the same environment with somebody every single day, even if there's no kids, no stress, no whatever, even if it's an ideal situation, you habituate to each other, you get used to each other again. So that sexual chemistry, that energy, it dissipates over time. So it's natural. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong in the relationship. And to that point, whether you're looking for porn, whether you're looking for sex toys, massage oils, whatever else like that, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong in the sexual realm as well. It's not it doesn't have to be dysfunctional. It could be just that you're enhancing what you already have. Yeah, it's not it's not perverted. It's not nothing like that. It's an enhancement of something that is perfectly healthy and exactly. So have the right perspective have an open perspective. And as always, if you again, I talked about it before, but if you have difficulty broaching the subject as is, find a way to open that door, the TV show, a movie, a blog post or whatever, just talk about that because it's much easier again to think about yourselves from through the lens of someone else's experience. Words, you know, whatever it is. Okay, so start with that. But someone has to take the lead. And if your partner is not doing it, that we really hope that you will as well so until then, or you will instead of your partner. Sorry. Okay. So. And until next time, keep your eyes on the road, in your hands upon the wheel.