So I often found myself having those type of conversations with them to. Find your strength, but also know that you're human and it's okay to break apart. But there's always another day. If you're blessed to have it, you just build yourself back up again and it takes time. Hello and welcome to A Week at the Wheel. Today, we're joined by our guest, Shara Ruffin. She is a licensed social worker from Philadelphia and she's also the owner of Journey to Licensure, where she aids aspiring social workers in their examination process for preparation for it. She provides coaching as well as clinical supervision. So, Shara, welcome. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Of course. So tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself. Sure. So you've already kind of introduced here already, But I'll say that I also work or LinkedIn, as in Pfizer, along with my other responsibilities of helping social workers with their exams. I'm also the top voice for social work on LinkedIn, so that gives me an opportunity to help educate the platform about social work. And yeah, there are many other things. I'm an author. I'll be a third time offer this year, so I'm very excited about that. So often I'll probably tell more, I guess, as we go. But that's what's kind of on top of my mind. And I'm a former therapist. All right. So I would like to start with maybe discussing and providing some context for our listeners as far as a difference between social work, psychotherapy and psychology, because there's a lot of overlap that there's also a lot of differences. So generally speaking, a psychotherapist like myself provides assessment and treatment of mental health disorders or and if you want to chime in a little bit about what the main gist of psychology is. So I guess what's different is that at least in Ontario, that we have rights that other mental health professionals don't. We can diagnose and we all go do therapy, we educate as others can as well. And I guess it's also a bit of the education. It's, you know, what kind of training you have, the I guess the theoretical orientation, which even within the field of psychology, of course, there are dozens, if not hundreds of different orientations one could have or could be exposed to. So I think it's more about the practice. Like a big part of it is the practice. Again, the ability to diagnose which other professionals cannot do. Yes, I do want to put in there that at least in the United States, in some states, not all. I know in Pennsylvania, I have diagnosing power as an independent, licensed clinical social working diagnosis that they're trying to fight for that more in our broader association to have that power to do so, just as with licensed psychologist work. So that is something that's definitely been changing in our field recently. But I would definitely talk about some of the aspects. Interesting enough, I was a psychology major for my first two years in college over 20 years ago, and I switched my major to social work because I wanted to practice therapy faster and I did not want to go the route of getting a terminal degree in psychology, which of course was the thing do more research. It just wasn't my thing. So my advisor at the time said, You should switch to social work. My first thought that listeners might find this me funny was that those social workers just take away children. That was my first thought, and I was very, very wrong. When I had my first introduction to social work, my first intro class, I fell in love with the field. Since I've been in for 20 years, my specializations go from working with psychosis all the way to ADHD. Combine type at 23 specializations in the Autumn Force. Or if I told mental health provider I was a psychotherapist for half that time in the field, so my range of practice was very broad, but mostly in the mental health setting space. So for the listeners, when I think of psychology, I think of more it's a broader field where we do focus on, well, there's human behavior. Psychologists focus on exploring a lot of mental processes that are conducting research, therapy, counseling. We're kind of overlapped, and also the training is a lot different. Typically, social workers, we go for a bachelor's in social work, a master's of social work is our terminal degree versus a psychologist who goes for a doctorate, which is there a terminal degree for social workers? We only have to do 3000 hours under a clinical social worker post grad, two years out of grad school, and we're able to get licensed as an independent social worker. So most people are like, well, what does that mean? And typically it just means that we no longer have to be under supervision for practice. We're able to practice independently, whether that is to work as administrator, to go into academia. Hence we would definitely need a doctorate and Ph.D. in social work or what we call DSW or practical degree in social work. But it's very broad access for social work that we mostly work with micro mezzo and macro levels, which means we can work with families and individuals. We work with different organizations as well as we can be definitely in different ranges of of fields and work with different disciplines. So individuals, families, communities and it really enhancing a well-being from a more holistic standpoint of integrating a lot of the family dynamics and the really the holistic parts of a person. When we look at a person, we're training from a strength based perspective and not really from a medical perspective in terms of looking at the underlying medical issues we do encounter and integrate them in care. But we're really looking at how we can we pull the strengths of the person to help them be resilient depending on where they are in their process. So hopefully that gives a little bit of a a slight overview in terms of that piece, the settings of what we're talking about, a social worker versus a psychologist. We're in a lot of a wide range of settings. It could be for me was in a hospital setting mostly because I want to work in mental health, ranging from inpatient outpatient substance abuse. We can be in government agencies. We work in private practice as private practice clinicians if we wanted to. Community organizers. Some of us are politicians. Some of this is not our professors in the educational setting. So it really ranges in terms of where you'll find social workers. I think in every of society you'll find a social worker somewhere. They're we're often told that we're the backbone of society to any degree to do the work that others would rather not do. But when it comes to psychologists, from my understanding, is more so of treating the mental and emotional issues related to the psychological theories and capacity, developmental parts of a person. Of course, the focus can be different depending on if it's an organizational psychologist or industrial psychologist. There's so many ranges in all relapses, but there are distinct factors between a social worker from a theoretical standpoint and a psychologist based on their training, based on what their focus is and what they're able to do in the realm of their discipline. Okay. I'm going to jump in for a second. I'll just look at something that Sara said is actually interesting. So first of all, for the listeners, so I've taught hundreds and hundreds of social work students because they come to my psychology classes and I, of course they have to take and then courses they take, as you know, as optional courses. So I had hundreds and when I used to do you talked about, about, you know, the social workers job only to take children away. Interestingly, for many years that was one of the main areas of my focus, not taking children away, but doing parenting capacity assessments for child protective services across Canada, Ontario and for the courts. Also custody access. And in that capacity, I worked with hundreds more that now they weren't social workers, they were social work students who got their BW or MSW, but they were told, I don't know how it is in the States, but they were told never to actually get licensed. Or if they did, they let it lapse because otherwise they would be spending literally all day, every day fighting off specious malicious claims or complaints. Because if a parent isn't happy with either the social worker or the psychologist or whoever is involved in their case, they feel they have no other recourse but to take them, you know, to go to their college and try to you know, to try to get justice. So I'm not sure how it happens in the States, but in Ontario, it's quite common. And previously that was the largest type of complaint was against people in the custody access and the you know, the Child Protective Services fields. So. Wow. Well, and now here in the States, I mean, child welfare is definitely a critical field here. Even, you know, there are a lot of social workers there. But I know in terms of in in the U.S., it it's still a big stigma with child welfare and some of the barriers, systematic barriers that are faced in terms of caseworkers, supervisors burning out because that field has a high burnout rate and the capacity that they can, working to supervise quite a few child welfare workers in the states here. But our license, at least in the US, it's you have to get a license in order to is at a point where we have to get license at every level in most states in order for pay increase for us to be able to have any projected longevity in the field. And it's changing for us now, even more so that before they weren't really looking at, in some states, the bachelor's and master's license as prevalent as the clinical. But now it's every level that people would have to get the license done in order to have any type of career path in social work here. So I think that's really interesting. Now, there you know, I think our ethics that still ring true, I think across the discipline, I'm sure even in Canada, someone's always going to you know, you can someone's going to claim malpractice and here they kind of you know, I haven't seen any malpractice for social worker so far, but I'm sure they're out there. But it's really about really upholding that license and protecting who is supposed to protect the public. It's been a big fight here with the license, which I'm sure is a different story. We could get into in social work here. But it license is pretty prevalent. We have to have it in order to get further in the career or we're kind of stuck. Okay. And Malika, say a few more points on it, because normally Malini takes charge just, you know. But yeah, right. And so it's interesting because up until the college of Psychotherapists came about in Ontario and I think was 2014 official was 2014, April 1st, 2014. Every student of mine, I'm telling you, whenever they said, look, you know, I want to work with patients, I want to or clients I want to do therapy and so on, but I don't want to spend so many years for the exact same reason you said about doing research. You know, if you get your Ph.D. in clinical psychology, I told my students, it makes you a really good researcher. Like you didn't get much training in actual practice that came in practica or internships, but the program itself was mostly focused on research. So I used to tell them, I say, become a social worker, because I said that, you know, they could get it as long as they were registered and licensed. They could practice psychotherapy at the time, which was not even a was a way where you're protected, field. Protected. Out until 2016 at the same time as the college in 2014. So literally anybody and this is also for the for our audience in Ontario until 2014, literally anybody could have conducted psychotherapy. There was no oversight of the term psychotherapy. So that really changed in 2014. And Malini is a psychotherapist and Malini might be able to speak to that. And then the final point before Malini talks about that, just to make sure there's no misconceptions. So I remember once a I was lecturing in one of my halls at a it was called Ryerson at the time, and one of my classroom story and a social work professor was walking in the hallways with a bunch of high school students who were doing a tour. And I could hear her and the door was open and she was saying she wasn't doing it to provoke me because I don't think she knew I was there. But she was a psychologist. They only work on the mind. Whereas social workers, you know, it's similar to what you said, a more holistic look at, you know, the family systems and everything. And I want to stop the class and go outside and go. But we do that as well. Like, you know, some people might focus more on one area or the other. But we do take a holistic, you know, family systems approach, you know, we try to incorporate culture and societal factors and so on. So I just want people to have the misunderstanding that, you know, that we necessarily focus only on one area. And neuropsychologists would definitely work on the brain. Right. And so some people do have a very narrow scope where they do only look at certain factors and, you know, similar to what you said, But I just want you to know that we do have the option with all of our training, experience and knowledge, to be able to have a really broad, holistic approach as well. So those options are there for psychologists. So yeah, and it's interesting because when Shara was explaining what her scope looks like, I was thinking the same thing. I'm like, Well, we do that too. So I'm actually having a hard time discerning really what the differences between the three of our professions, because like I said, from the get go, there's so much overlap. But to speak to what you were saying or and yeah, as far as being a registered psychotherapist in Ontario, it is so much more treatment focused. So I of course have my bachelor's degree and my master's in counseling psychology. And then to register, you're required to have of course, I can't remember the number of hours offhand here, but there's a certain number of hours to be able to register to work under supervision. And then much like what you described after you hit some thousand something hours, you can practice independently, but it's great because, as Oren said before, the only options were to become a social worker or to become a psychologist. And that doesn't always necessarily fit as far as for somebody who wants to, you know, strictly work in the therapy field. Yeah. So. All right. So, so Shara, if, let's say, if because I've had patients, I've had students I've had patients ask me this, So I'm going to ask you directly because you were you said you did many years in therapy as a therapist, right. So if someone came to you and said, okay, so, you know, if I want to get psychotherapy, but I'm not going to psychotherapist, even though you are doing psychotherapy because there wasn't a worker. Right. If they said so, kind of tell me what like how I don't know if if it's too general of a question for you in your specific case, but if they said, okay, tell me how working with you, how is this going to be different than, let's say, from a psychologist like, you know, in the actual therapy setting itself, What would you tell them is kind of your different orientation or approach or focus? Yes, I would want to know what their I, I wouldn't know want to know what their experience has been to help them understand it. And is it really for me, I've gotten that question a lot AS But I was working on a multidisciplinary team. So often my clients would see the psychiatrist first and then they would see the clinical psychologist, which was our clinical director at the time, for their assessment, and then they would come to us to do the biopsychosocial and then we would integrate them into outpatient care or we would give them higher level of care. So oftentimes that conversation, depending on who the person was and what was their level of understanding, that's a because is pretty general, but I would probably have to take it like a specific case. It's been a couple of years, so I had to deal with that. But I once had a schizophrenic ask me what was the difference between a social worker and a psychologist? And he said, What's the difference between you and the redhead? And I am. And I said, The difference between me and the redhead is that she runs the show. I'm just the just the person, the person on the ship. But it's it's it's always interesting overlap because it is you know, because every discipline, depending on their code of ethics and how they define it, you're fighting with society's perceptions of that discipline as well as fighting what it looks like in society as well. Because I don't know if you ever seen the movie Precious. I know this a little offhand. Mariah Carey plays the social worker. I don't know if you ever seen that movie. I know she. Yeah, she will. If you just Google what she will look like. She did not look like that. Mariah Carey. She she look like someone that was like worn down. I was like that is not all of us. And and it's the perception and used the social work that we constantly have to fight. But from a theoretical standpoint, when I think of a psychotherapist, a social worker can be a psychotherapist, depending on what you know, if their license is certified in that area, at least in the U.S., there may be certain certifications we may have to get in order to be licensed or certified in psychotherapy. But for a psychologist, that's going to be definitely different depending on what their their focus is. So when I explain it to people, even though this may be very generalized, for me, it depends on who I'm talking to because I'm talking to a schizophrenic that may be here or may not be here, or if I'm talking to someone that's in crisis or someone that really is really struggling or trying to deflect you that initial time or trying to get information and trying to negate and build that rapport with them. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, so it's really context specific as far as how you describe it. Yeah. And like you said, you work with the multidisciplinary team, The, the, the lens within which you're looking at it is different than if you were practicing independently as a psychotherapist. Social worker. Yeah, most of my time that I've been a psychotherapist has been working on a multidisciplinary team. So I would get the question, but not as much because most of the time, by the time they got to me, they had seen the nurse, the psychologist, the clinical director, psychiatrist. They may have seen a LPC, we had MFT on staff, depending on what the modality they needed and who was being treated, if it was family or individual, what was their severity of their case and, you know, and really discerning what their level of care should be. So that the question wasn't around as much. But we have had it a few times that I was in practice in that type of setting. Okay. So can I jump in then with a follow up to two questions. One, you mentioned a couple of things. You are a teacher. That can’t help it, can’t help it. So you mentioned a couple of initials there because you're talking about the multidisciplinary team. And I'm not sure this is different from between the United States and Canada. But like I think I heard MMT and LSC. And often American family therapists, LPC, licensed professional counselors. Okay, So I heard the letters wrong. That's why I didn't. I got you. Okay, Sorry. No, that's I mean, that's on me. Okay. And then the second question so that you you alluded to it earlier, aside from the perception that, you know, you're just baby snatchers. Okay, What would you and I think is important question, though, because I've had people ask me, what's the difference being a psychologist and a psychic, right? So the lack of knowledge about what we do. So what would you say, aside from that baby snatching line, what would you say is the biggest misperception about social workers in any of the contexts that you work? The biggest misconception that we don't make any money. All right. Yes, that is a big one for us in the US. I can tell you that it's okay that we don't make any money at all, that we're always poor, and that is far from the truth of what I've experienced in my business journey. Okay. And by the way, I used to say that to my students as well, and especially now today, especially with psychotherapists, psychotherapists can charge as much as a psychologist could. And a psychotherapist, again, can be a social worker. So, you know, the payments. But in the past, there were larger discrepancies. But I tell students even 20 years ago, one of my colleagues who was a social worker, this is again, when it was unlicensed, but still she was practicing because she was a registered social worker. I said she was charging good money, very good money. And she was never, let's say, lacking in clients because she got lots of referral sources and so on. So I think it's important for people to know that if you have ambition and I think maybe you can talk to this, if someone has ambition, if they have the experience, the wherewithal and so on, they can make a good, you know, a good living, a very good living, doing what you're doing. What do you think is most lucrative or rewarding, either for yourself or for other because you've got your whole business? But for someone who's not that entrepreneurial minded, you know, what could they do in your field? I would say, and I tell on my own students in terms of social work, it we have so many transferable skills. So for a bachelor's level, social work is just coming out of college. I mean, you want to work in mental health. It's really building that clinical tool bag. As a teacher, I'm sure you appreciate just building your clinical skills at your place of work at the beginning. You don't make much money starting out, but it's important to get that experience and to seek mentorship and to seek certifications that are evidence based, but also align with the population that you work with. So if you leave that practice or that first job or second job, you're building a trail for what ultimately could be your pivot point. And that's exactly what happened to me. If I could speak on that part. I have been in social work for about 20 years, and at the end of that journey, I wanted to go in private practice. Of course, I never did, not in therapy. I was pretty burnt out, but I still wanted to do it because I thought that's all I could do. And I found out very quickly that it was a story that I heard on LinkedIn that became my pivot point during the pandemic. I'm not being able to pass my clinical advanced board exam to practice independently. That took me ten years to get to and a US. It takes two years, took me a decade. And in that journey I found a new purpose being able to use my story to pivot, to combine my my therapy experience, but also combine my personal experiences of struggles with the licensing part, but also being able to use a more holistic approach that hadn't been done before in the exam prep to help students, especially those that have ADHD like I do generalized anxiety disorder, which I have, and a learning disorder. I've had a range of students who probably would have really struggled without having a more holistic point to licensure. I had my first deaf and blind student passed exams the first time, which in the licensing world is a lot harder if you don't have that type of ongoing coaching support where you're meaning it matches someone's learning needs in the US and there's a big fight going on between using self-study programs and tutors, which I always explain to people that I'm neither because of the vast majority of experience that I have that I can holistically match and utilize to that students learning style, which in license from the US is a one size fits all mold. Right? So if I can jump answers, I can go ahead. So you make a really good point. As far as and interestingly enough, Oren and I recorded an episode about ADHD just the other day, and we talked about that very topic with accommodations for examinations and how incredibly important and life changing, getting the right fit can be. So you mentioned taking a holistic approach to it. What what exactly does that mean without giving away your Secret Sauce, Of course, I know this. Is part of your business. But what would that look like? So typically it's more for me. I was diagnosed, I'm 37, so I was diagnosed three years ago. I had it most of my life. I didn't know it. And I'm a high achieving individual. Like it was pretty much overlooked because of my anxiety. Graduating with honors, top of my class for both my degrees. But the struggle of my memory deficit was horrible and I didn't really realize my parents can't figure out what it was. Third grade. It took me two years to even get through multiplication tables. That's how bad it was. And I, being the child of the nineties or early eight, I mean, late eighties, my parents didn't have a capacity to know what was going on with the type of brain that I had, and it took a licensing exam for me to get diagnosed with ADHD combined type and it took me fairly exam to meet to get to that point of knowing that there was something else going on, even though I didn't know what it was, even though I had, you know, intellectually have been in the world of not knowing different learning disorders, I never would have thought I had a neurodevelopmental disorder. I had math learning disorder, and I also had generalized anxiety. The psychiatrist said your anxiety was so high back then, we didn't. We saw some of the ADHD, but we couldn't even diagnose it. It's like, Well, that would have been great. It would have. And she's like, I'm so sorry. You're in your thirties now. You're you're getting this diagnosis, man. I probably would've saved you so much grief. I was like, Yeah, it would have. There are many of my my clients, my colleagues that have underlying conditions that they're not they don't have the insight or they don't want to face them. And they think it's like, oh, I can just you know, go ahead and take this exam. And then when I failed several times and then I actually talk was like, Hey, look at your history. I think you need to look at a combination. I think you need to get assessed and when they do is like a light bulb goes off like, Wow, thank you for having me. Look at this. No one else has been able to Catch this. So looking at it from a holistic point of when people come to me, I'm not only looking at their exam history, I'm looking at are they parent, I'm looking at how long they've been out of school because some of the barriers with the licensing right now, there's three people that don't pass there. And this has been a study under ASWB which is our testing regulatory board, which is a big mess right now in our field in the U.S., where the top people that don't pass are people that don't have English as their first language, people that have been out of school for a long, long time. Older test takers are from a marginalized communities, whether they're black or Hispanic. So there's something systematically wrong there and they're trying to address it now. But part of the gap and one thing that I've been feeling is a lot of my clients have come from a marginalized community, have systematically, historically had issues around standardized testing. So trying to fill that gap and trying to hold the space for them has been important to me, where most tutors would just say, Just do practice questions. There's so much more to someone's learning process than cognitively how they process information. So being able to gauge that for me is a blessing. To be able to push my college little bit beyond their proper level to seek help and know that it's okay to do that. Yeah, and that's really cool. Coming from your lived experience of knowing what it's like to be a high achiever and be intelligent but still not quite be able to, you know, get the grades or or pass the way that, you know, you should be able to is that's, that's really great. Right as well he said we literally just talked about, you know, everything you just described and we were talking about how that does hinder so many people and prevent so many people from being able to actualize their full potential. So and I had a couple of questions for you then. I know how it is in Ontario, and there is a mention that we were lamenting the fact that unless you have a lot of money, at least Ontario, it's a long time before you're going to be gets, you know, as a child, as a as an adolescent or even as an adult getting an assessment. It costs a lot of money. And the you know, if you can get through school it again, it could be months, could be years before you you know. So three months is a short, many, many, many months. Right. What is it like either in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, other states? What would you say? It's expensive. It's it is expensive. I mean, when I first had a neuropsychological exam, I was going to college around that time was like 2006, 2007. And the reason why I had to go see a psychologist was I was told by my math professor that, hey, I think there's something going. You're not getting a basic math class, you're not passing it and you're taking this you're doing everything you're supposed to that something is off. And I'm like, I'm there on this program. I'm an honor student. What are you talking about? And I went to the neuropsychologist. And at age of 21, she's telling me that you have generalized anxiety disorder. Part of I think is being the first person to go to college and not having anyone to really talk to about that process. The other part was it was a lot of pressure I put on myself. The other part was having to be told, you have a learning disorder being as though you've been a Type A go getter most of your life, especially in academia, where I've done really well. But looking back, I could see the points of where I struggled and often had to compensate for that. So having my son, who I'm constantly watching him for signs of ADHD right now, he's not showing any signs of it. Thank God. There's you know, of course we know there's genetic uploading that can happen. But part of it for my son is that he's a very nurturing learning environment. He's a straight-A student in home school. No issues at all for me, part of it was pathological. My father was a military man, had no patience. I was scared of doing homework with him. So my memories of doing school with my father was horrific. My dad was emotionally, physically abusive. So it, I think, exacerbated whatever symptoms were there at the time. Hence, by the time I got to college, I had a high expectation of my self that was mostly cultivated by that type of pressure and upbringing, especially being the oldest of five children. So of course, civilization, as we know, influences that can. Okay. Can I jump in with another question? I was going to do an abstract question based on something you said, but I'm going to use you, though, if you don't mind, just because we've made it easy. Really? Sure. Okay. So and I hope I hope you'll be able I don't know if there's a good answer to this, but you were talking about the different like, again, let's say inhibiting factors. And one of them was you were talking about if the person is a person of color that that we know are systemic barriers and difficulties. So given everything that you described as far as your personal history, and again, if it's too personal, just let me know. Please. But give me your mind. Okay. Given your personal history and all the dynamics you mentioned, if you were, let's say, white and I'm not sure or a white male, what, and you went to get help, what do you think would have been different as far as like, you know, again, your pathway toward where you are now, given the, you know, the difficulty with the ADHD and so on? Do you think there was something that you could describe as, again, an extra obstacle for you specifically? I can honestly, I can only speak to as much. I would not want to go hypothetical. I can only speak to what my experiences were knowing for me. I came from an inner city environment, grow up to teach kids parents in a low income environment, poor public school districts, and then having to go to a predominately white college where I was thrown into a program. Whereas most issues have been in private school all their life. So I had my first semester. I can tell you no one saw me. I was always in the library, scared of failing. My father said, You shouldn't be in an honours program. You're going to fail. My first semester, I hit the Dean's list. But that was because I constantly say to my professors, offers using their office hours and asking for help. From what I knew at the time, I was very resourceful, high pressure, very resourceful when it came to using the the supports that were there. And I had a very I had a lot of people around me that when I opened up to them that it was supportive. However, not everyone has that same experiences as I did. I did have to fight a lot for what I gain. But what I learned from my personal experience is that it's important to one ask for help no matter what background you come from. But depending on what your factors are, you know this your ability to cope, we're talking about resilience is a process, right? It's going to be different for everyone. No matter where you come from. I've I've had Caucasian students who still say they struggled and had similar backgrounds, just not the same cultural background. There are, I do believe, and I have to state there are systemic barriers. I've experienced them myself, but I've also been one to overcome them with seeking services and asking for help. There's a huge stigma in the African-American community when it comes to seeking help, adequate services as well. As we're talking about academia, we're definitely way behind the mark. And some of that is a of it has to do with, of course, I could go on the topic. We're talking about systemic racism. I can speak to that I hear in the US. But overall I would asking for help, no matter who you are, where you come from and using your resources is a start, no matter what the background is. I Yeah. So if I can ask a follow up to that. So you mentioned something really interesting, and I agree with you that asking for help is, is of the utmost importance. Our listeners know. But you may not know I'm blind, so I've had to really learn how to advocate for myself in the workplace setting, in the academic setting in the world in general. But I'm wondering, you're mentioning some of the stigma that comes along with it in the African-American community. I think in general there is amongst many communities, whether it's the vision loss community, South Asian community that I belong to women, I think there is often a lot of stigma that comes along with asking for help. But what in particular can you identify or what were you referring to when you mentioned that there's stigma in the African-American community? Well, I guess I guess for me, I was thinking about my colleagues and pushing them seek help. I was one of them. I think it took me most of my life to get on medication for what I for my disorders. I had never been on ADHD medication. I had never been on anxiety medication. My mother has debilitating anxiety she's now being treated for, but she's 53 years old. So some of the vicarious traumas that she experienced that I experienced through her as a in my youth, some of the you know what we have this culture that what goes on in your home stays in your home. You don't talk about it. And that's the culture that I grew up in. Very much so it took me most of my life to find my voice to talk about those stories, because I find that those stories are not just my story, but the story of many that won't ever speak about them. So when I think of stigma, I'm thinking about what the strength you have to have to talk about the very things that you're ashamed of talking about. It took me. I was very broken. After my license experience, I missed about two points. I'll never get that. A whole year of me getting on LinkedIn, talking about my depression, talking about being broke on food stamps, three kids at home. I was being evicted from my home, being scared and losing my job a week before the pandemic, not knowing where my next meal was going to come from, having debilitating headaches. I'm having health insurance, taking 6 to 8 migraines, excedrin a day to numb it, and these were really debilitating. I swore I was like my teammates on the ground mad because I was it was very painful. There were times where I couldn't even get out my bed because I had pushed myself so long. At the time, it was like 17 years to get this way of getting this license done and I fail. And then I had this little boy looking at me who I'm supposed to provide for, and I can't. So when I called my interest in, I called around and seen how to get insurance. Fine. Got it. I said there's I have to do something different. I don't care what I have to do. I don't care what it looks like. I have to do it. I have to pass this thing. And I got a therapist, I got on meds, got diagnosed with ADHD and passed two months later. That was three years ago. Yeah. So there's a few things you mentioned there that I think are really key. So one of them, it sounds like a necessity. You know, things weren't going in the direction that they needed to is for you to support your family. So there is some degree of necessity that push you forward. I also think that there was this, you know, strong desire to overcome an obstacle. And Oren and I have spoken about this in other episodes before where oftentimes those who are most successful are those who are told they can't do it. And you mentioned earlier that your dad had alluded to, you're not going to succeed. So I wonder if that played a role in your desire to push forward and push through and overcome those obstacles. I yeah, I always push, push, push. There's a dark side to that, though, and it's something I speak about a lot now. There's a perception I'm especially on LinkedIn, where people have watched the last couple of years get to a place of all these things happening. For me now, not knowing the underlying what's been on the screen, a shiny profile, a lot of letters, a lot of accolades. And it really taught me about some of the grind of what I had to go through to get there. Losing a baby, losing my daughter, having another child and compromised, losing my marriage, going through depression, drinking a lot the first couple of years of my son's existence while trying to put on the face of being Shara the therapist you know,

00 rolls around, I am a mess. I am grabbing the only thing I can grab to do around pieces of my life that are now brokenness. So when I look at where I am now, thank God I'm not in the ground. So yes, there are there's there was always a push. My son being born. My other two stepdaughters, my bonus children. They are what push me now? But before it was just me trying to push a way out. Well, thank you for sharing, you know, very personal matters. And, you know, normally I would try to model, you know, open openness, transparency. We hope some people get let's say I am inspired, motivated by hearing these things. So I'm going to ask a question that the I've talked about before and I know, you know, you part of your practices working with like DIY. And so when I hear a story like yours and again, I've said this before on our podcast, okay, you would be somebody that I would want to take anybody from any of the different marginalized groups that you belong to and say, Here's a model, here's a role model. Let's not believe just because you have certain factors, you know, whether you know, again, a woman, a person of color, a woman, this this is not right. This you know, you rose above that right. I would want to you know, I want people to look at examples of people who can achieve and not to say, well, just pull yourself. I keep saying this to me, like not just pull yourself up by your bootstraps ignorant right now, but to know that it's possible. Right? So when you think of your role, you're talking about like on LinkedIn and people following your journey, how much of like when you're doing this, are you consciously or is just part of you saying, you know, I want to inspire other people who have been told by the system or their parents or others that they can't achieve? How much is that driving you these days. That are always that as always driven me? It was just at a point, I think earlier on in my process of finding myself through even becoming a social worker before and as a psychologist, I think the there was a there was a desire to always wanted to help people that because of that drive and desire of where I came from, it just I think over time for me has that desire has worked and developed through time as I have changed focus, but still never were always remembering that through my journey. I would hope that is a blueprint. The pain, the challenges, the lessons learned, never of don't want them. There. Lessons that I can leave for someone who actually needs them, if that makes any sense. I wouldn't want to be like a here's a model shining example. I would say I would be here is here's hope for you to make make it what you will to take something from whatever facet of my journey that can help you in the moment where you feel that you can make it, that you're in a dark tunnel and you're looking for a candle with let me be the lighter. Even if it's temporarily okay. And two more points. If I could just tie together, because you're mentioning your children. I mean, look, I always say that the best we want to be our children's role models. You know, my my kids would laugh if I said that about myself. They might commit the time, you know? But there are certain elements that I do bring to the table. And I think what you're really describing and Malini and I talk about this all the time and, you know, I can make this a drinking game, but I just you know, every week there's a word that I'll repeat like a dozen times. So I haven't done it today, but if I had to, I would choose one word. I always tell parents this. If there's one thing you can teach your children, one if you only get teach one, I say resilience. And I think that's what you're able to. That's exactly what I was about to show. You said that know if my son, Jayden, my little, little one, he went through a very he had a hard time in the beginning was when he was born. I was told that he wouldn't make it beyond six months. He had a kidney abnormality that was going to kill all is now. He'll be ten next year. He had surgery at six months and a very invasive kidney surgery saved his life. But then for a first four or five years, he was in out the hospital lot at what I'm trying to rebuild a career after divorce as a military spouse. And then the pandemic hits. He's now he was home school for a little while. Then he loses his, well, now his favourite uncle. My brother was 18 years old when he got killed last year. Two years he was 18. Didn't make it out of my mom's house around the corner. We heard shots and he was laid out in the street. The reason why I tell that story, and I can tell it very in a place of peace and confidence, know he's at peace. Is that when I think of my brother Samir and I think of my my son, he was so resilient. He he processed, he cried. We got in grief counseling and he made straight A's all the way through. And I didn't miss a beat. And I look at him now with everything he's been through and just like you're all resilient a little. But he said a couple of days ago, he said to me, Mommy, that's because I'm like you. And I say, You know what? You definitely are. But when I look at my son, my flesh and blood, I would only hope to cultivate through my experiences what it is to be human, what it is to be kind, what it is to be compassion. And for about. I want to say this was a couple of weeks ago. He had a pocket full change and we were passing a homeless guy and he said, Mommy, I got all this change to give him. I was like, What is this? He took up all this money. I was beginning that it's been here for five years and gave it to him and said, I just want to do something nice and walk off. And I let me I turned away because I just bubbled up tears. But it let me know that I did something, that I planted a seed in him that he wants to help others. And whatever way he does that, unless we know that speaks. To how important our modeling is to our children. That's beautiful. That's wonderful. Yeah. Because there are times I would think I'm not a good parent. I missed his first words. I missed him walking because I was working so much in the hospital. Most of his upbringing I missed. And now to be in a place to spend time with them, to help teach them to have that freedom is what I fought for all those years ago. So yeah. And I always say to Malini and Malini and I've talked about this on podcasts, you know, I'm going to bring sex into it for a second. But You know, as a male, like, like, you know, I always say to people without my wife, if I if I was raising children on my own, I don't know how far I would have gone or how long it would have taken because, yeah, I mean, I got a free pass almost, so to speak, and I was always there for my kids. They know I'm always in the house. They I've been a very active, you know, participant in their lives. But my wife was the backbone of the family, you know? And I always tell my kids without without her, he wouldn't be here, basically. So, you know, so when I hear stories and by the way, and when I do my children's assessments or the Child Protective Services, you know, and I would see a single mom, three or four kids, she's sick. She's got to take her kid to school or whatever, or, you know, or another child's sick and everything. I just think, how do people do it? So whenever I hear stories of, again, well, you know what, I'm going to make a drink game, second time resilience. So whenever I hear stories of resilience, I really, really hope that people that I hope they take that from, you know, from what they're seeing because that it is inspirational. And without that, we as a society don't move forward. We need the people who do have not just the vision, but the resilience, the wherewithal, the ability to carry forward, no matter what the hardships are. And yet we stumble, we fail, we make lots of mistakes, we screw people up, you know, But, you know, just keep going, keep going and going. So I when I heard your story, like it's very touching, it's moving. And again, just I just hope that people again, really are inspired by that. And and would you say so let me ask you, though, I was going to sort of turn a little bit of a corner here, You know, so what if you were working with, let's say, a young woman who happened to be, you know, a black and she was saying, well, I have no choice or, you know, no chance or, you know, the world stacked against me. What would you say to her? She's intelligent, she's ambitious. I've I've had I've had quite a few of those in my days of few people I'm thinking of right now think I when I hear that, I, I usually well, I use going to a lot of trouble with this, you know, when I was in practice. But self-disclosure for me was a way of connecting with them and building rapport. It was important for me to level that power dynamic. So I would always share a little bit of what my journey has been with her. And oftentimes they're able to see themselves. It may take them a little bit more time because sometimes someone can tell you, Hey, you're going to be fine. But when you're in the midst of a storm, sometimes you just can't see. And that's okay because that's where you're supposed to be. It may take somebody else on the outside to be able to guide you through it and sometimes let you sit with it until you're ready to move. And that's how I used to see myself when I was a therapist, because most of the people I work with look like me, but my staff did not. So there was often a cultural disconnect, even though I love my colleagues. But there was a level of connection. I have my my clients because I lived in the very areas that they lived. I can understand their cultural background because it was very much mine so, being able to hold the space for them when they were at their most vulnerable point was very powerful for me to help them see that there was there is hope in the fact that they were in here when there's so many people that wouldn't even enter the building that I worked at was strength in itself. So I often found myself having those type of conversations with them to. Find your strength, but also know that you're human and it's okay to break apart. But there's always another day. If you're blessed to have it, you just build yourself back up again and it takes time. So, Shara, question for you. I want to segway a little bit into some talk about DIY. So I think that's something the three of us definitely have in common is in our own in our own right. We've all overcome some significant obstacles and have come out successful in the end. But what do you say to those who then, you know, assume that, you know, perhaps if I'm trying to think of the best way to phrase this, let me gather my thoughts first. I can say I want to be sensitive and empathetic when I say this, but with DEI initiatives in the workplace, there is often criticism that it's making things easier for some people who come from, you know, difficult backgrounds and in some ways, I think that there is a great deal of character that is built through pushing through and overcoming obstacles. But from my own experiences, I can also acknowledge the fact that if things were a little bit more level, if the playing field was a little bit more level, you know, perhaps that would have made the road to the end of the journey a little bit more. Well, easier to deal with. So what do you say to those who think it's about making things easier for people? It's I guess this in my own opinion, because I just had this conversation with somebody, is it can be very difficult, I think, for I had this conversation with someone is a very sensitive topic for me because I've been in these situations where I've had to talk to people that have no idea what this are, don't have the ability or will not cultivate the ability themselves to be empathetic, to step into someone's shoes, to know what it is, to not have your senses right, one of your senses, or to not to have a learning disability that creates barriers. It's not a level playing field. It's important to understand the importance of cultivating a work environment where everyone feels included. And I think that's definitely up to the people that lead those type environments. Or it can be very toxic because for them it lessens productivity. It it, it trashes morale and it does more damage to the company overall. When you don't have that, you're not supporting the people that need it the most. I've had some really it's at this I had some really difficult conversations with even my my former superiors about the importance of diversity and being sensitive to the needs of others in order for the environment to not be hostile, in order for it to be one of productivity and really teaching emotional intelligence and cultivating insight into people that, it's important to be sensitive and to feel valued and respected. Everyone deserves that. So it may not be the complete answer, but there are so many choice words. I probably can't see this podcast and. I can see you're choosing your words as carefully as I did. So I'm with you because you know, but overall, because I just feel like when you have someone that has that type of fixed mindset, they don't know what it is or they never been able to walk in those shoes and they don't want to, but no comment. So Okay. But here's here's the challenge. So I'll preface with you know, I at the heart of it think that these initiatives are so important and so valuable. I actually had a friend ask me because DEI has a bad rap at this point because it's gotten out of hand. I think in some ways someone actually asked me, Why are you involved in that? Well, I'm a woman of color with a disability and I've overcome a lot. So, yeah, I think it's important to ensure that things are fair. But what do you think about some of these initiatives? Or maybe you don't think? But I you know, I'm inclined to to believe that in some cases it's gone overboard. What do you think about that? And when you say it's gone overboard in terms of how DEI is looked at overall. I'm just I would say how it's executed. Like, I'll give you an example and this is clearly a really extreme example. But in 2021, Coca-Cola did a DEI training with their staff, and I'm going to actually pull up the slides. So what it's turned into in some cases is anti-white. So this slide that Coca-Cola shared with their staff was to be less white is is the goal that they're third aspiring to here. So that means to be less oppressive, be less arrogant, be less certain, be less defensive, be less ignorant, be more humble to listen, to believe, to break with apathy, and to break white solidarity. So for the most part, I think a lot of those things are qualities people should aspire to in general, like listening and being empathetic, but how it's kind of turned into like anti-white rhetoric. In some ways it seems so bizarre and so counter to what the initial goals of of DEI were. It kind of caught me off guard, kind of lost power trying to figure out how to. Where I'm the one should be triggered by all that I'm getting triggered by all. That, you know. Well, while I say that, because most recently I've had some cultural this is way off the mark, but the cultural implications in my own family of looking at my my mixed culture. So so I found out that in my family we have a mixture of some European descent and also African Nigerian. And my mother didn't tell me that because she and my family, most of my family, colorism was a big thing in a black community. I'll say this, I know this is off the mark a little bit, but in terms of that's okay, so someone is a little bit lighter shade. I'm the lightest one of my family and there was always a lot of there was always a lot of not nice things that people used to call me even within my own family regarding that. That goes back to slavery, of course, and most recently doing DNA testing and finding other relatives that very much had blue eyes and blond hair. And it was eye opening for me most recently to connect with those relatives because I felt like I needed to understand more about my culture. Being so an African-American community is it's historically mixed because of the mixture of slave owners and slaves and whatnot. But most recently, interestingly enough, I was having a conversation with my cousin who actually works for a university in in the Diversity inclusion department. She's having a very hard, hard time because she's she's my complexion and she's having a hard time with just trying to fight some of the the experiences of what it is, what it means to be deaf, what it is to be African-American, and what it is to be feeling that she is getting a lot of anti rhetoric per se, which I didn't even know she was happening. She's had some really nasty things happen to her at work. And that is really disheartening when you're targeted for trying to fight for people that don't have a voice to fight for themselves or can't or are afraid to, because they'll be feeling that they'll be reprimanded. Oh, so everything my mind is just mounting. Everything. My mind is just going 50 miles per minute because I think it's it's disheartening that people it's important to see that the beauty in diversity. No matter what the cultures. But it's also important to understand that everyone's capacity is going to be very different. I just would hope for people listening to the podcast, even though I feel like I'm all over the place in my head, it's important to understand that there is a place for it's not just a buzz is not just a buzz word, it's a. Mm It's a fundamental principle that I think about when it comes to embracing and proving positive change. The community, I mean, the workplace is just a magical, a micro environment that really exemplifies our society as a whole. And it's important that those conversations happen, whether they're uncomfortable or not. I think that was a good response. Calm my brain down. I'm sorry to have caught you off guard there with that. Dance, because it because I was going to say I had a follow up question to and hearing you talk, Sahra, and I was going to like I'm going to throw something at you if it's too difficult. so I'm going to ask and I'm going to sort of speak on Malini's behalf. All right? Or for Malini So I'm going to. I'm trying to protect you, Malini, okay, let's put it this way. So. Yeah, I think I know where you're going with it now. All right, Well, I'm just. I'm just curious what your thoughts are, because, you know, again, I have the least credibility here when it comes to DIY just from people looking at me. All right. But I know a number of people who have worked in the departments, you know, either where DEI has been implemented or where they are actual DEI agents of change. And oftentimes they're telling me that no matter what the problem happens to, if there are other factors that might be causing the, let's say, toxic work environment or unproductive work environment or whatever else it is, that all gets trumped by saying, no, no, no, the right and it's not very inclusive the way that they take, you know, the approach that they take. So I'm going to ask you in your professional experience, but all the work you do with DEI, either you can take one or two or both, you know, how have you seen that? Where again, it's poor, it's good ideas, executed poorly, you know, And the second question is, I mean, what would you do about that? How do you help people see that diversity does not have to be just somebody's skin color or, you know, or their sex or something that that that that we we have to look at what's actually happening and not just assume that it must be this strata of problem, that it might be something else that's going on here and don't just automatically assume, oh, we just have a few more women here or a few more, you know, people the vision issues here, like what? I threw a whole bunch of you saw this. Happened at my former job. No, no. I'm thinking you've got me running in my mind of remembering remembering some of the some of the issues that at my old job that we were fighting for more clinicians of color and at the time, because one of my patients, I remember him saying, why are there more? Why are there any black therapists, black male therapists? I remember that question. And I back then, I didn't know how to answer that. Now, looking back, the answer was very prevalent, but whether my superiors at the time wanted to address it was another story. I would say it. I've seen companies bring in other people or when it's it's too sensitive to touch, to bring in others, other contractors or other people, to be the mediator, to try to get people to come to a consensus of what is needed. That has had its pros and cons and places that I've worked at pros, as in having someone to negate between two parties. The con was it was coming from the the group that didn't really see that was kind of just putting a Band-Aid on it, like, hey, this is what we're doing. But it was more so that they were just trying to plug in the hole. I think important and any workplace to really focus on not to make it more about more about the inclusion of everyone's however still focusing on what? Because I think it's going to look different depending on what the work environment is, what the issue is. It's important. I have seen good ideas executed poorly, as you said, but executed poorly for at least from my experience, from the point of not only poor execution, poor leadership, poor leadership being not leading from a place of empathy, being from a place of more until actual, this is what I have to do in order to get the team to be more productive instead of looking at it as a teaching learning point for everybody. These conversations are very uncomfortable and I've seen them go good. I've seen them really people really struggle. But the beauty in that struggle is there is some insight that is gained. Where people really want to have those conversations is another. I don't know if that even answer your question, but. Malini, I'm going to I'm going to pass it on to you, Malini Yeah, sure. So I think there's certainly a great deal of value. In. The discomfort that comes along with uncomfortable conversations, because when we're uncomfortable, it really makes us think and reflect. So absolutely. But I think and I don't want to speak for you, Oren, but this is certainly what I think you're getting at. And what I strongly believe is that we are forgetting about diversity of experiences and the important role that that plays as opposed to, you know, the obvious things that make one diverse, like the color of my skin or the fact that I'm a female. So for me, that's a big challenge when it comes to these initiatives, is that we are ignoring how important the diverse experiences of white people are as well. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's always very sensitive. I think when I had this conversation with some of my colleagues, even my relatives, or I was like, What does European mean? What does Caucasian mean? That's overall, you know, umbrella. There are subgroups, just like for black people, there may be someone that is Caribbean, there may be someone that is from straight from Africa, even Nigerian or Somalian or something. It's it's important to understand, even at the moment, cultural competence, which I'm sure you guys know all about. It's social work. They drill that into us in terms of code, of our code of ethics. But it's important to let your client, of course, be the expert of their culture, that you are there to be the, you know, the the beneath the sponge. But yeah, I think you're absolutely right. The experiences of others need to be handled carefully, but the person that's leading those conversations needs to make sure that they're educated and are willing to have those conversations or find somebody that can because I've seen it get really ugly when the the person that's having those conversation or has been called out is conversations that that is in charge of those conversations. It for them not to go very well if they're not prepared to have them or their true intentions shown. Yeah I don't know if that makes sense. But it does. And that leads me to another thought and kind of tying some of the things that we're talking about here and very controversial topics. Again, if you're uncomfortable with this next one, we can certainly cut it out. But I want to get your thoughts on the ending of affirmative action, because some some black individuals in the US have commented that, you know, they are happy about this change because it means that, you know, it displays that black people didn't need the extra help. But given all the things that you've talked about and that we're talking about here today, I get the sense that we would all agree that there's a time and a place for there to be the leveling the playing field. So if you're comfortable, can you talk a little bit about that? I was not personally very happy with affirmative action going away, the Supreme Court's decision because of the fact of. So the reason why was first in the first some of the systemic underlying racism, the gatekeeping that it happens for communities that are marginalized, that don't have they're not able to get to those resources. I have a brother right now who is at Columbia University. First time being in a place like that. And he's we've been constantly having conversations. I'm thinking him right now around being a black man and Ivy League school. And even though I've never you know, I didn't matriculate Ivy League school, I went to Howard University for my master's degree. It was one of those things I knew what it was to be different in an environment that I looked around. Me and everyone else is different, and helping him kind of navigate what that experience is like for him. One being black, second, of course, being male. I think again, he brought up affirmative action. He got in Columbia right around the time they strike it down. And he was talking about a lot of people saying that he got in because of it when he had he was a stellar student for Cornell and went from a community college and transferred to Columbia and having to really have a talk with him that there is going to be some uncomfortable situations where you'll be the only one. And being able to take those experiences in stride to know that unfortunately, there are very few of us where you're going. And that was a role I don't mind saying in podcast that was a real conversation. Remember the need to have because that was my experience. Yeah, on so many layers. I don't I was not a big fan of that at all. However, it did happened. So looking at my children and the opportunities that me and their dad are trying to cultivate, to grant them to be able to know that they're good enough despite what society says about them. I don't know if that Yeah. Yeah it very touching. You know it is. Absolutely it is. And it leads me to a thought because to my knowledge, we don't have any such thing here in Canada. But I can really reflect on that, that idea of being perceived as the diversity hire or you only got here because you got a special favor because you know, for me, because of my disability, because I'm a woman, whatever. And it's just it's such a diminishing feeling because it's like, no, I actually overcame all of these things and did damn well for myself. But because of the negative attitude towards some of these initiatives, I think it's really colored the way you pun intended, color, the way that people look at the success of those who have overcome obstacles of their. Own, who you tell and who think, yes, I can relate for sure. Imposter syndrome is definitely real. And even when I talk to my students and they see like you're at your position very well in in your field, and me telling them that if only you knew the fight that I had, the situations or the environments where people would see me and see you got in here because of this, not because of your qualifications, and then having to really cultivate in myself that I was good enough. Even now. Well, I think we've put you through the wringer enough. That you had be here. I was like, Man, this was an interesting interview. You guys were just cracking the question. So I'm like, Man, I said I was all for this and what did I just get myself into? What happens when you sit down with two therapists? You have to go for that. We're going to give you review cards afterwards. You can see who you know, who was who made you more uncomfortable, who will give us our feedback afterward. But but no, it's fine. It's just being mindful of time and everything. And, you know, we had no idea where the discussion was going to go. We don't usually have guests, but, you know, again, we thought it would be a great opportunity. Originally, we thought because, you know, of the different fields that to help people clear, know, help clarify, you know, what the different professions do, where the similarities and differences. But I like where the conversation went. And we looked at other topics that again, I've talked about before and getting more perspective because that's what we're always trying to do. That's what the reason the me one of the reason we started the partly diversity of perspectives, lived experiences, you know, let's guidance and so on. So, you know ideas. So I'm really thankful for having on Shara, and I'm going to let you take over for me before I babble too much. Yeah. So Shara, we often and always end our podcast with, you know, kind of a summary of all, okay, we've thrown so much at our listeners today, but what can they do with this? So if there is a main takeaway that you want to leave our listeners with, what would that be? Wow, you guys threw a whole bowl chicken soup at the viewers and me. I mean, I would say it is probably going to sound really generic, but the whole time, besides thinking about resilience, I was thinking that life is is full of challenges, quite a bit of challenges, no matter who you are or where you come from. But each day that I can wake up and be above ground is always a good day to me, that gratitude is probably the most powerful thing that you can do for yourself and others. What that looks like to you is going to be different. So to the viewers out there to take each day what comes with it, and hopefully at the end of that day there is a lesson or a blessing or, a moment that you may cringe at, that you can look at that silver lining in there in the conversation we have. We talk about a lot of things, but the one thing that holds is the ability to keep stepping forward no matter what's in front of me. And what's that word again? Shara. Thank you. Resilience. Yes. I have to justify my drinking game. So resilience, Yes. Yeah, I know. That was beautifully put. Shara. So thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you for answering our questions. Having such a robust discussion with us. We want to know what our listeners think as well. So leave us your comments. Leave us your questions. Okay. And Ryan, and thanks. First of all, Shah's information will be listed in the description so they can check out your work. They can see what you do. And I want to also extend my gratitude for, you know, for joining us. I really appreciate that and putting up with all of our questions and I really appreciate you. All right. And so for everyone else, until next, keep your eyes on the road and your hands up on the wheel.