that's the same thing that happens in families, is that oftentimes like, well, maybe if I take this angle or maybe if I try this or maybe-- No, just sometimes you just need to stop, acknowledge that you did the best that you could and other people's behavior is outside of your control. We only have control over what we do, what we say. And sometimes how we feel. And if others aren't willing to play ball, then so be it. Hello and welcome to Awake at the Wheel. So as the holiday season approaches, we want to discuss the dubbed Most Wonderful time of the year. So in North America, typically this starts out with American Thanksgiving. So at this point in time, we are right into it. So oftentimes, as you know, when we're watching movies and TV, it is portrayed as this wonderful, beautiful time where families come together lovingly and spend time together. But the reality is, and I've learned this more and more in my role as a therapist, when the month of December rolls around, a lot of anxiety and a lot of stress starts to bubble up because there's a lot that comes along with the holiday season that isn't quite so magical. So among the top issues that arise, financial strain is one of the big ones General stress, old family wounds that come up. Loneliness comes up. And interestingly, over the years, Christmas used to be one of my most favorite times of the year. But as I've learned more and more about the struggles that people go through, really what I've been left with is a sense of disappointment at how how difficult the time of year this can be for people. So, Oren, I know that you've done a lot of interviews in the past about this very topic, so let’s start out by maybe talking about some of the things that you've noticed, some of the things that have been asked of you. Sure. So I always tell people. So I have a catch phrase and I guess I'll share it. I haven't shared it with everybody before, but I will. It's we-we-ah or wu-yay. However you want to do it. It's WEWYE And there's a bit of a back story on the whole back story. But basically, if I said to you, I see you told me something happened. They say, I went to my my family for Christmas and Uncle Bob got drunk again and he made a fool of himself. And I gave him this expensive bracelet that I wanted him to, you know, to look at. And he broke it because he was drunk. Anyway, you said all. And I said to you, if I texted you, what else would you expect? Just text that. No, no tone as well. So what tone would you infer from that? What else would you expect? Probably like, Oh, well, what else did you expect? Right. So there's a bit of there's condemnation, a bit of it's critical, right? It's insulting almost. Right. So I'm a fan of irony. So I took this critical, you know, insulting phrase and made it the most empowering phrase possible. So what else would you expect to tell my patients of WEWYE wew-ya, we got to find a better one. But anyway, so I tell patients it's a simple, quick way to remind yourself that in fact I'm in control here. If I can predict something. So when I say that to a patient, I say, I've never met your Uncle Bob or whatever else, but even I knew what was going to happen, so how could you not predict it? Right. And again, I don't see it in insulting way. I said it very compassionate. But it's to empower yourself because when someone realizes, oh, yeah, I know what's going to happen most likely, or I have a pretty good way to predict. So I can either avoid it or prepare myself for it or mitigate the damage or whatever else. But, you know, being prepared for something, even if it's not something great, is far better than an unpleasant surprise. So I tell people, no better time than Christmas or the holiday season to employ. There is no better time then, you know, than those times to employ it, because unfortunately, as you're saying, there's a you know, there's a lot of expectations baked into the holidays. People have these fantasy, the most wonderful time of the year, etc.. Right. And when people are disappointed, when people are caught off guard and so on, it really, you know, it's bad enough in a normal situation. But when people have these illusions, this fantasy, like it's going to be great this time. Even the last 30 times were not right. You got to be prepared for all of this. And whether it's for yourself, whether it's preparing the family saying, okay, you know what? You know, Uncle Bob's going to do this this time. So either, you know, let's say you're with your partner preparing for that or making sure the kids aren't in the vicinity of uncle, but whatever the case may be. So I tell people we're we yeah, whatever and don't have to be for holidays, obviously is for any situation. It's empowering to say I can predict as long as I'm prepared to deal with reality and not allow myself to succumb to fantasy. So that's just the first thing to say. And we'll talk about this specific topic in a second. But it's a real different mindset, and most people, they don't want to think this way because they would like to maintain this illusion, this fantasy that somehow this time it's going to be different. But why would it be after 25, 30 times previously? And to that I often tell clients, you know, the and it's an unpopular opinion, but it's true. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. So we do know this. We just sometimes don't want to accept it. Exactly. And that's the thing with cognitive behavioral therapy or other interventions where we're supposed to use our higher level functioning, our prefrontal cortex to say, well, I recall that blah, blah, blah. But when you're in a heightened state, it's hard to remember what we've been taught. But a simple catchphrase. Whew, yet we. How are you want to pronounce it? Are you telling Peaches you'll put put on your knuckles WEWYE even if it's not a real tattoo? It's a metaphor. Tattoo and speeches do that. They go, They just look there and they go, Oh, yeah, I remember. It's quick and it just it's a bit of. It won't change your feelings, not that much, but it provides a bit of a buffer. It's a bit of a jolt, it's a bit of a break in the system. Right. That allows you, Oh, now I can employ what I've learned. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I love that strategy. So I wonder as far as the specifics that we get into, do you want to start we're talking about some family of origin wounds, because I think that that's probably what overarching is a lot of what people experience. Exactly. And so again, we were fighting against this thing that we want to be real, this fantasy, this illusion, this, you know, the most wonderful time of the year. And number one. So it's not going to be that way most likely for many families. All right. In the present. But then, as you say, the family wounds, the wounds of the past, all the times before then, that you were disappointed that things didn't turn out and so on. And then more important than that, layered on top of that is and this what people really need to understand is to several layers to this is those hurts, the wounds, the disappointments, those happened when you were a child. And if they happened when you were a child at a very heightened state and maybe your parents were tense as well because of the things that we're going to be talking about with finances or pressures and so on, whatever the case may be, if it happens when you're a child, then when they get triggered again and the strongest triggers are the ones that are closest to what originally happened. So what better trigger than your own family, your own parents? These are like it's almost a replica, exact replica of what happened previously, maybe even the same home that you grew up in. Whatever the case may be, you're you're not walked to see your 430 year old person. You're not walking in there as a 30 year old person. You're walking as a five year old person because the emotional, the physiological, all the conditioning, the the you know, the wounds and everything that happened back then, those are what are getting triggered. And so we're not acting like calm, rational beings. We're acting like children who and it's not insulting to say that. It's just these are all just. The way it. Is. It's the way it is psychological, emotional, physiological triggers that that just get released. And then on top of that, and here's what I always tell people. If you have siblings now, the sibling rivalry, the wounds, the hurts and everything like that, those get triggered as well. And here's the crazy part. So again, you can be 30, can be 40 years old and you can have a sibling around the same age. But if those problems weren't resolved when you were a child, well, again, the child brain, so to speak, is being activated. And now I don't care how old you are. No, Carol, successful. You are a professional. You are right Now, if a brother and sister are fighting as kids who supposed take care of the problem. Mom and dad. Are mom and dad. Right. And so we have that expectation. Again, logically and I've spoken with so many patients, they know logically this is not the way it should be. But once again, those triggers, they are there and triggers triggers say pshaw to logic, triggers, laugh at logic, and triggers will always override logic. So we have that double whammy and the double hurt. And you again, I just might sound crazy, but people have been through this. If you really step back and think about it and you're humble enough to go, Yeah, you know, I can I can admit my foibles. I can admit that I am not this professional, mature, responsible person. I want to be in those situations. If you look at it honestly, you go, Yeah, that's actually what happened. And then now we resent our parents and the parents. All they want is a nice, quiet Christmas. And by the way, you're the one who made this in the first place because you were in charge 20, 30, 50 years ago. That was you. It was on you and you screwed up back then. You don't get off that easily. But that's all they want. Other guilting you and you got the guilt wrapped in as well. So it's a cacophony of emotions that are just raging inside of you. And again, it's not an adult trying to contain them all. A child who feels just overwhelmed by everything and wondering, why can't I do why can't it deal with it as a child? You can't deal with it very well as an adult. You expect to be able to deal with it, but you can't. Yeah, so but if you're being zapped back to that time where you weren't equipped to deal with it, then yeah, it feels almost the exact same. Exactly. And it's frustrating. And and it's not just you now. It's all the other people. And then and depending on the family dynamic, if you were always the black sheep or the trouble or whatever. Now, even though five or eight or ten or 20 people to beat on children and cousins and so on are making a mess, you might be the one who gets singled out, right? And then you're seeing all these dynamics at play and you're seeing these two cousins ganging up on this person or your parent and your sibling making you feel bad or they're attacking mom or dad. It's again, it's it's so messy as adults. And if you just started from day one in this situation, be hard enough to deal with. But it's not day one. It's thousands of days of again, of long held hurts. Yeah. So I want to dig into this a little bit deeper. I want to reference a great book that I looked at the other day. So it's written by Vienna Ferran and the book is called The Origins of You. So she talks about these family of origin wounds that can really be triggered during the holiday season. So the main ones that she discusses and we'll dig into them a bit deeper are worthlessness, belonging, prioritization, trust and safety. So with regard to to feeling worthy, so either being made to feel worthless or the desire to feel worthy is often tied to self esteem, to feeling valued and as you said, Oren, if, if the historical demand dynamic is that one hasn't felt valued in the family, that stuff can absolutely come up as far as belonging. And this relates to our feeling of connection and acceptance. So I think that ties into that whole black sheep idea where if we've historically or one has historically been the black sheep in the family and not felt accepted, those are the things that can come up as well. With regard to prioritization, this one's really interesting because it can be something as simple as one, not remembering one's dietary restrictions. So not feeling like you're a priority, not feeling like people understand, you know, who you are, what you're about. And it could even, you know, in the Christmas season relate to not buying someone a meaningful gift or not having the appearance of putting a thought into that, to not being made to feel like you're a priority in that family. As far as the the next one of trust, this is one of the most important things that comes into play with relationships, whether it's family relationships, romantic relationships, whatever the case may be. And this trust or this mistrust can exist, you know, potentially from poor attachment as a child or, you know, poor attachment in the family in general. And it can be from one large action, it can be from a number of small disappointments. But in any event, to me, I feel that if trust isn't there, it's going to really erode a lot of things. And then lastly, safety. This can be one's physical safety, psychological safety, and this can stem from things such as neglect, from witnessing abuse, from experiencing physical and emotional abuse, any number of things. But again, that feeling of safety, if that's not there, it certainly does not lend to a happy interaction. Exactly. And then add to all of that the complication of I think it's hard enough keeping in the family and then you bring, let's say if you have a spouse or partner. Right. And then bringing them in and once again, you're an adult, but you feel like this child and everything you just mentioned that makes you feel exposed, its involvement, you're vulnerable. If any of these factors are at play, especially it's not usually just one. There's, you know, a list of them. So now you have your partner as well. Are they going to have my back? Do they really understand what's going to happen, you know, and then dealing with their family and so on. So once again, I think this is the drinking game I think is going to be trigger today, the drinking and people again, just cut yourself a bit of slack. The whole part of a week or one year. The reason I say that is, again, it sounds like it's condemnatory, but it's not. It's actually empathetic and recognizing that, Yes, okay. It's not just about I can predict this and everything is it's also a reminder that these triggers, whatever you want to call them, the hurts, they were installed when we were much younger. And so we're being brought back to an emotional state when we weren't capable of handling because a lot of people, they get upset. And then again, the pressure of the partner or children. If you have children, I don't want to be a bad model for them and I don't want to throw their grandma under the bus or whatever. Right. Being able to realistically and compassionately say this is what's most likely going to happen. I have to prepare for this need to prepare my family for this in ways that are age appropriate. If you go, okay, we're going over to the hellscape right now with the evil grandmother and grand, you know, an incompetent grandpa. Kids, if you do it like that, that's going to ruin it for them. So I know there's pressure there as well. You don't want to ruin Christmas for those kids. You don't want to be as bad as your parents rooting for your kids like they ruined your Christmas. Right? So there's all this pressure. If you just say, here's what's most likely going to happen. And I know in that state I'm going to be like a kid. Okay. So as an adult right now, days or weeks or months before I go, what can I do to try to mitigate the damage? And in many cases, I tell people when there's a really dysfunctional family or they're the black sheep or whatever I say, is there at least one person in their family of origin who has your back or that you can consider an ally? Is there any way to have them talk to somebody? Is there any way to have a bit of a, you know, an escape room, so to speak, If if things are getting tough, you just go talk to them or something like that or talking directly. I've had many patients say this. They say to the you know, to the parent or whoever or sibling, it's Christmas. You know, I know we're I know we're supposed to meet like you don't you don't read their mind or anything like that. You don't do it in a in a condescending manner. You do it and you come from a position of humility, humbleness. I just want to keep the peace. You're not lecturing or anything like that. You're saying, Hey, you know what? How can we, you know, sort of just make this day or week or however long you're there more tolerable and saying, how can we make it great? Well, that's not realistic. So how can we make it tolerable? Let's get through this or, you know, let's not ruin it for dad or mom or whatever the case may be. So I say plan ahead, find at least one person. And again, if it's the person you have the conflict with sending an email or text beforehand, if you don't think you'd have the conversation beforehand face to face or over the phone or whatever, then write it down. And and just again, when you do it though, you have to watch it because you really get all those triggers are ramping up and you might not realize it, but there's might be a phrase that you use. There might be a word that if you were really on your ball, on the ball in your best game, you wouldn't use it. So maybe have someone read it over beforehand, someone you know with an objective lens, so to speak, who can say, you know what, that does sound a little bit preachy or that is a bit of an insult, even if you didn't mean it. Yeah. And as far as some more specific strategies that I recommend to clients during this time of year and really in general when they're getting together with family. So it really depends if you're visiting locally or going away to visit and so on. But a few different things. So one being try your best to, as you said, of course, prepare know what to expect, be realistic about what it may look like, but also you can time limit it. So let's say it is something that's going to be a few hour long event. If all you know, you can tolerate based on your previous experiences is maybe an hour, maybe 2 hours, then frame this visit around that. And if you get to that two hour, two hour mark and it's maybe not so bad, then you can stay. If it's awful, then you can leave. You fulfill that commitment to yourself and you're completely free to leave because at the end of the day, you're not a child anymore. You are an adult and you can leave when you feel that you need to. A second strategy. If you're visiting somebody out of town, visiting family out of town, maybe opt to not stay in the family house. You could always get a hotel, get an Airbnb, stay somewhere else. So you have that separation in that space. So at the end of these triggering difficult gatherings, you can kind of take some reprieve and have your own space to decompress. Anyone who works with me knows that I'm huge about exercise, So any way that you can stay on your exercise routine, which can be hard if you're visiting out of town, but you know, go for a walk, have that time to to really de-stress and decompress and own some of your time with that routine. Right. So you mentioned about time and location. So to speak. So the time limited part is really good. And, you know, you can think is there's another potential of drinking came word is boundaries. I think today boundaries is going to be really big. You can set that boundary ahead of time with let's say the parents or somebody else. Having a cover story is good if they expect you to. If you say, look, you know, I can only spend a couple of hours, whatever. If everyone expect you to spend much longer, you know, you make up an excuse of why you can't stay that long because you want everybody to save face, not just yourself, but the parents, grandparents, whatever else. So having a good cover story is really important and then, as you say, if if you need more, if you can spend longer, then you can have like a backup excuse. Oh, you know, I thought I had to go back and do this thing, but it was taken care of, so it's okay. I can spit you know, stay a bit longer. Even overnight. For example, if someone says, I don't think we're going to be able to if something has to happen and you pretend you get a text or something. Oh, it's all good. We're able to state now, you know, some family members might be a bit upset, like, oh, I'll just I'll save the room for you or someone else Again, this is why you prepare ahead of time and you let them know we're not trying to play games and everything like that. You're just setting boundaries. I'm going to have a double drinking it, right? We're just setting boundaries and that's it and letting people know. Here's the thing. When it comes to boundaries, both times when people hear that, they automatically think barriers. They think you're putting up a wall or something. And I've had this lecture with so many literally thousands of students and patients saying no boundaries, simply communicating what you're able to tolerate, what needs you have, what expectations, what is reasonable, okay. And that's from your end. And the other person has to set their boundaries as well. And if someone's going to breach those boundaries, then you have to be prepared to either, you know, sustain them, maybe rock them a little bit harder, more solid, maybe a little bit higher. That maybe starts to become a barrier. Maybe you do have to totally cut the person off at some point. But until that point that you have to do that, we're trying to have a healthy, mature, mutually rewarding, mutually acceptable dynamic and or dynamics. So that's all that you're doing. And and for some people it depending on the nature of the family, they can say it outright to the person in charge, the matriarch, the patriarch, whoever. They can say that and say, hey, you know, this is what I'm doing and so on. Other times they just can't do that. The parent might be impossible to deal with. So you make sure you have that one ally, the cousin, the sibling, whatever, or aunt who can sort of run interference a little bit, who can kind of sort of soften the blow and everything like that. You want to make sure that you have you don't want to ruin it for everybody else, because the problem is in so many people do this, they feel that they say it, which is if I leave early, if I don't stay at the home, if I do this is that I know I'm going to feel terribly guilty. Right, they’ve, and, you know, and I can't believe it was Christmas and I did this and I walked out. It's like, well, as a child, sure, you're made to feel guilty if your parents guilted you. All right. Which most parents will do to some degree. Right. As an adult, if you're setting boundaries, you can say to your parent, with all due respect, look, you know, here's this is my boundary. And explain to them, you know, if you don't like the word boundary, then don't say boundary. Just saying, you know, this is just what I'm hoping for, etc., etc., you soft language. But let them know, look, if things aren't going well, I'm going to let it go. I'm going to let you know, you know, pointed out, you know, quietly, not in front of everybody else and say, hey, you know, what? Can we sort of avoid this topic? Or if you lay off that or something like that, and if I have to say it the second time, that's not well, I'm not going to say it's time to tell you one time beforehand. Nice and respectfully. And if it if it's still continuing, I'm going to have a an excuse to leave. I'm not going to, you know, ruin the party or whatever. I'm not going to throw anyone to the bus. I'm just going to find a way for us to exit, you know, respectfully, quietly and so on. And if you tell it to the person and they still can't respect your boundaries, sorry, then then you just have to be able to maintain it. Stick to what you said. Leave and be able to tell yourself. And I always tell people this. I know it's just words, right? It's not going to work. You're still going to feel guilty on everything. But we're just trying to reduce that guilt somewhat. You're able to say, I took the high road, I did everything possible that any reasonable adult would have accepted and would have respected. And if my parent or whoever else, sibling, whatever, couldn't respect it, I have every right and goes back to reasonable self-worth. This is your chance to exercise and to show your self-worth and say, I have the right to be able to extricate myself from a situation that is not comfortable for me. It doesn't work for me. And I gave them a warning ahead of time. I didn't just sandbag them in something up and leave. I told them, if we want this to work, here's what we need to do. And if there's anything that I can do or shouldn't do or whatever, please let me know. So that I equally make this a good time for you as well. So let's think of a time. I know if you want to add anything to that or yeah. I don't. So there is something I wanted to add in, but I don't want to completely veer off. But I think that, you know, whether right now or a little bit later in this conversation, I think it is really important for us to address the fact that, however, sometimes these strategies just aren't going to work. And some families I've heard this term no contact a lot lately where they make the decision to just completely cut off because despite their best efforts, despite the attempts to put in good boundaries and, you know, even the person who is going no contact has evaluated and identified what some of the problems are, there's just no winning. So I think we should at some point talk about that as well. Yeah, I think we should. And and again, to have that happen on Christmas of all times or to run for it, well, it doesn't matter when it was. It could be a funeral, it can be a birthday, whatever, you know, wedding, even if it's that toxic, that it's not healthy for you and probably not for your kids or partner or whoever else like that. You do need to set that boundary and maintain it. Okay. That's just a fact. So I think we should get back to that some point. And then the thing about the about like not staying at the home, for example, there will be people who rightfully they have every right to say it. They go, Yeah, well I can't afford a hotel or area or whatever. Right. And yeah, so, so that that might be a limitation. And so if you again, if you're being realistic, if you are using woohoo yay, then what was it was it was or triggers. That's it. Yeah. If you're using Willy it could be my drinking game as well. Drink your game. But if you, if you're realistic and everything like that, plan ahead. Maybe save up the money, maybe not Have a coffee or you know, the third coffee for numerous weeks. It will pay for that room if you need to do that, you know, or you make that long drive home or something like that. But try your best. And that's why it's so important to live in reality, not and to see. And that's the thing. People want Christmas to be the time of the magical time, that fantasy time. Well, reality doesn't take a break. So, you know, you know, you have to just even go on vacation. A beautiful vacation. Well, if you and your partner always get into a fight when you go on vacation, if you know that you have to prepare ahead of time, don't think this time is going to be different. Be a is there for a reason. So I just I just wanted to, you know, to to acknowledge that there would be some people who say, look, I just, you know, either have a big family is too expensive, all the hotels are booked. There's, you know, whatever the case may be, I get it. But you have to think, how much value do I put on my well-being, my mental health, the health of my own family. And if you amortize, I see hotels, $500, you know, because it's Christmas season, they're going to jack up the price, whatever, you know, worst case scenario, well, amortize that $500 over the next 20, 30, 50 years of your life. Go really you've got and it's not that much if that's what it takes to maintain, again, your own sense of your own well-being or the well-being of your family or the, you know, the grander family, then you make that investment, if need be. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think absolutely looking at over the next 20, 30 years, but even over the next several weeks. Right. So if you're able to avoid some turmoil by investing a little bit of money, you're going to save yourself a heck of a lot of grief even over the weeks following that event. Right. And so and speaking of money, that's the other stress, as you mentioned, the financial stress. And yes, I know I see people start shopping, you know, months before because they they like to go all out and they run themselves ragged or there's all these Christmas parties they have to go to and all these other things. Again, it's once again, it's boundaries. If you can handle three events over the holidays, then you do those three events and you prioritize. And that's that's what boundaries have gone. I'm going to I'm going to burn my throat all the I've got to stick to tradition, but that's what my guys boundaries are all about. It's about making sure you set limits, things that work for you. And going back to what I said about the guilt with the family, it's the same with friends or colleagues. Unless you if you know that you don't if you don't attend this particular, let's say, work party, you're not going to get that promotion. For example, your job's on the line or something. Then whatever the case would be, you make an appearance, you go in no matter what. Right. But if there's ten events and three of them, you know that you can't make at least three of them because it's just going to wear you down or whatever else like that. You prioritize and you do it in the most respectful way. And once again, if you lay things out, say, Hey, I'm really sorry, I can't blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, again, it's not that important. Just whatever kind of event, it's not a special one. It's just something that someone wants you to go to. You have to be able to at night say, I took the high road. I didn't not show like just like I didn't just know, show them. I told them I couldn't go and maybe I made a lie, an excuse, or maybe I told them, look, I'm really struggling right now. Think about that. I just you know, everyone, when they hear it, it makes so much sense, but they don't live it. So which is if I tell somebody, look, I really, really want to go, but I am stressed out or I am depressed or something, you know, I just I've got migraines, I can't make it. And the person is what? What? You're not going to go to my party, right? You know, it sounds I sound like a parent here, but you know what kind of a friend is that? If they can't accept your limits or your boundaries? Yeah, absolutely. So. You know, and I think what that comes down to, because I can I can hear people and I know I've even heard from my clients over the years, like easier said than done, but it is a matter of learning the strategy of how to say no and being realistic about what your capacity is, what you can do, what you can afford to do. Because like you said, if there's ten parties, you know, that can certainly add up. But I think there's also perhaps some reflection on one's core values that's important here in terms of, you know, why are you doing all of this? You know, are you doing it because you're people pleasing? Are you doing it because you truly want to see people? Are you striving yourself financially because you, you know, really love giving gifts and making people feel great? Or is it more out of obligation? So with regard to that financial strain, I think it's really important to not necessarily just follow what everybody else is doing, but reflect on what actually is realistic and makes sense for you and your family. Right. And I did this many years ago with my own family, and for the most part, people stick to it. I don't remember how many years ago, but everyone agreed which is, look, Christmas for us, it's it's about family. That's it. It's about sharing time. And, you know, is for the children basically, and for the adults. It's just getting together and seeing each other can maybe even see each other for a few months, whatever the case may be. So I put a moratorium on presents years ago. Same here, exact same story, yet. Put all the pressure. Kids. Yes. You want to get together for the kids? Of course. You know. Right. And if you really, really need to, those are two things. One is, again, the whole hell of trying to find something. And what are they going to like? Whatever. Worst case scenario, getting a gift card yet again if you feel you have to give something. Well, it's not this. Well, whatever the presents are, you've made it into that. It should be this way. It should be that way. No, there's no should. Okay. It's how you deal with it is how you frame it. How you, you know, you can set the expectations. All right? And again, it made life much easier for everybody. And someone wanted to get a gift for someone, one person or that's the other thing. Other families see it. Okay. One gift for one person is sort of like the Secret Santa kind of thing. Yeah, the same idea. It's much more feasible and same with friends. You can do that with your friends as well. Say, Hey, you know what? I'd like to meet you or one do this or that. Can we not do gifts? Because that's the other thing. Because not just family, it's also friends and so on. So it can be very expensive. It can be time consuming, it can be very stressful, although online shopping makes it somewhat easier, but still the financial repercussions. So once again, as you said earlier, if you're a people pleaser, then reframe this as this season and we're going to you know, we may talk about well, I know we'll talk about resolutions in a different podcast. Okay. But you can say this season I am going to deal with this whole mess better. I will set limits. I will learn to say no respectfully and so on. I will learn to start to live with the guilt. And once again, people have to understand there's if you if you do something because you know, there's a real life consequence to not doing it, that's different than saying I do it because otherwise I'm going to feel guilty. The two very different one things going on in the real world, one's is going on in your head. The real world is what has the implications, the stuff in your head you're able to learn to if you can. We do this in therapy all the time. Learn to contain, learn to, to, to, to frame it in a much more positive, realistic way that's going to help you as opposed to cause you all this stress and distress. In a great way that I often guide people in checking that guilt is ask yourself the question. Well, guilt usually implies that I did something wrong. Did I do something wrong here? Or is it just the pressure of what's happening in my family in my circle, whatever the case may be? So that's often a good way to reframe it. But back to, you know, the financial strain, and I think we're throwing out a lot more strategies than usual in this episode, because I think this season is all about being strategic in figuring out the best way to handle it. And of course, there's families out there that, you know, do get along and do have a great time during the holidays. But I'm inclined to believe that more people struggle than the the opposite of that. So in terms of, you know, one's immediate family and not that this is necessarily going to work for everybody, but we've taken the whole presence in a step further in our household. So when I had my son, a group of my friends and I actually just happened to have babies at the same time, most of them had older kids. So I learned a lot of wisdom from these other moms, which is really cool. So really early on I learned from a friend of mine the strategy that she was using with her older daughter and was plan to use with the daughter that was on the way. So for Santa, which I know is a whole other story, and whether people believe in that or not or want to, whatever. But the Santa gift, rather than it being ridiculous and having piles and piles of gifts, because I'm sure all of us on Christmas morning have seen people's posts with these towers of gifts in front of the tree. It's it's disgusting, frankly. But anyways, for gifts from Santa. So something you want, something you need something to wear, something to read and that's it. You write your letter. Those are the four things that you get from Santa and that's that. So we've implemented this in our household forever, and it really causes our son to, like, stop and think about what he really does want rather than, you know, just rattling off a million different things. And whether it's because of this or because of the values in our household, probably both. He's not a very materialistic kid. And even at Christmas time, we're like, What do you want? He's like, I don't know. And I'm pretty sure he's figured out that there isn't a Santa at this point, but he still plays along and we're waiting for that list. But it really does help to, again, I think, remove that materialistic ness from, if that's the word, materialistic nature from kids from an early age. Yeah. And again, you said earlier about easier said than done. I get it. I understand. When kids are facing all this pressure from the other kids and they're trying to outdo themselves that they want to be at least on par with everyone else. I understand. And that's again, it's about setting limits and boundaries with your own kids, which is I didn't get I feel terrible. I do when your child wants something and everyone else is getting it and you have to disappoint them. Well, guess what? This is what good parents do. And I hate to say it, but good parents have to teach children. A you don't get everything you want and B, there will be disappointments. I mean, that's the reality. And again, if you frame this as as a parent, forget Christmas, forget whatever. Okay, I have to think of my child's life. Now, we've said this before. As parents, our job is to teach children or it is to raise children who will become independent one day. And one of those tasks or abilities that they need to be able to develop is the ability to deal with disappointment. Right. And saying this to a five year old child, it's not going to resonate with them. They're going to say, I hate you, Bob. But again, a parent needs to learn to parent without guilt. Parenting from guilt is one of the worst types of parenting that has predictable consequences. So the child needs to be able to learn to deal with disappointment. And as you're saying, we're trying to make kids not so materialistic. You and I were speaking another podcast will come out at some point about how society has I mean, this is nothing earth shattering. Everyone knows this, but people aren't do anything about it. Many people aren't. But the fact that we've become so materialistic that children's values and priorities have just gone crazy. We've always been like that for many, many years. A consumer society. But it's only got worse. And with social media it's ramped up even more so parents. Our job is to be able to help children have some kind of buffer against all these stressors, to be able to deal with disappointment, to recognize, oh, you're not you know, there's a kid down the street who's got a much bigger house, a much bigger car or whatever else like that. And to learn that one's value does not derive from how many, you know, what kind of sneakers they have or whatever else. And again, I know it sounds great on paper, and I know there's not one teen or kid or very few who would actually accept that, Right. So you got to put up with the years of a kid begrudging you, being upset with you, whatever else like that. But if you deal with it the right way, if you just go, well, too bad and you slammed the door, right, that child is going to have a lot of resentment. But if you do it in the way that describing explaining it to the child, we've talked about this in a previous podcast about this, you know, authoritative parenting now explaining about why this is the case and being empathetic and go, yeah, I know, I would love to get you this. I'm I worked my ass off just to pay, you know, pay the bills or whatever else like that. Be grateful that we do graduate. You you and I have talked about before. Look, I know it's not going to sound great, but be grateful that you actually have a home, whereas other kids, once again, none of this does any good in the moment. The child's still going to be upset, but one day down the road, they're going to look back and they're going to realize that my parent actually raised me to be a good, decent human being. And it doesn't feel that that even 18 if you if you do it right, 16 to 18 years old, it starts to sink in with a person. And again, they may not act that way. They may not say, hey, thank you for that. But at some point it will register anything. Even at 1618, they start to sort of understand it and you are raising a good, decent human being with good values. Yeah. And to take that even a layer deeper. So when parents do that, I think that it's likely well-intentioned. They just want their kid to, you know, whether it's fit in or have, you know, the, the same stuff as their peers and whatever. But in doing so, if one is financially strapping the family, you're not helping. In fact, there are studies that show that parents who are chronically financially stressed increase the stress hormones within their children, which in turn is going to cause some physiological and long term harm. And I don't say that to fearmonger, but reframing it as you know, while you think you may be helping, you could actually be doing more harm than good. Very excellent point. And once again, your kid is not going to appreciate anything that we're saying at this point. No, but if you can do that again, then you suck it up, so to speak. I know I never used that in therapy, but again, this is just my guess. But you just frame it as if I really, really want to do right by my child. I need to set those boundaries. I need to say no, I need to do this and that. But again, in a compassionate way. And just as you say, reframing it either as I say, both as you're saying, if I don't do that, my kid's going to become a mess. They might become an entitled brat. They might have unrealistic expectations, they might have this neurosis that now they need to always, you know, sacrifice themselves and give, give, give, give, give and be a people pleaser. If you're a people pleaser, you're going to raise children who either are entirely, entirely spoiled, rotten brats or people pleasers themselves. Okay, So reframe that as I don't want whatever whatever happened to me. However, I develop this mindset and way of being I don't want to, you know, to burden my own child with the same type of problems of framing it that way, number one. And number two, the positive side of that is if I, if I stick to my guns, if I really push hard and do it in the right compassionate way, eventually my child will be he or she will have a much healthier mindset and will be a much better functioning member of society for themselves. Yeah, yeah. So let's go back to the whole no contact idea. So what I'll say about that is most of the time in therapy, I'll recommend this as a last resort because it can come with a lot of, you know, fallout and negative consequences. But I also acknowledge that sometimes, you know, when people are dealing with family members who are unreasonable, maybe even if they're mentally unwell and are able to listen to this, you know, level of reason or have the compassion or whatever the case may be, sometimes that is the only choice. So I'm wondering, what are some of the circumstances or strategies that you can broach here that we can talk bit more about? Well, okay, so I always, as you say, it's a last resort. I say that to people as well. And so there's a few things. So there's like I've got actually I've got I've got about a dozen right now. So I'm going to try to just to deal with a couple. So I'm going to switch gears for a second to to kind of take the most, I'd say, to accelerate and accentuate beyond what we're talking about, which is I have patients from a bunch of different cultures where they say, and I want to mangle it, but it's I think it's like the 1818 rule or 1825 rule where they basically say that that they were told by their parents, their culture, their background, that the parents responsible for taking care of the kid for the first 18 years of life and then the kids are responsible for taking care of the parent for the last the last 18 or last 25 or whatever years. And I've had many patients say because I've got patients from a variety of backgrounds. And I tell them I say, I get it. I understand that's what you were raised to believe by your parents, by your grandparents, by the culture, whatever I said. But here's the thing. That arrangement, that agreement, that contract, All right, You signed it under duress. Hell, you didn't even sign it. It was imposed on you. You did not ask to be born. If a parent is birthing you, they've made that decision. It's their responsibility to take care of you for the first however many years. Yes. And if you want if they want you to take care of them later in life or do right by them or keep them in your life in any way, they have to earn that. And people don’t like to hear that. I say now they need to earn it. And I've got many, many people who they were so horrifically abused, mistreated, neglected, and they still are breaking their backs trying to take care of an elderly parent or whatever age may be, because you're talking more generally. But I just want issues, and this is one of the most extreme cases, because this is where people feel the most guilt, because now that might the tyrant, the monster, whoever, well, they're old and frail and it's hard to see, you know, it's how do you turn your back on someone like that? Well, it's pretty easy when every time you see the monster, even though they're frail or whatever, they still they've got the claws, they still have the laser beams, they still know how to tear you apart. And on top of that, in many cases, the person is. And again, I know I'm going off a little bit, but I want if I just want people to know that I've helped people deal with these situations, which is the most guilt inducing. Yeah. And absolutely. If you can if they can learn to deal with this, you can deal with almost any situation. And here's the other part. They have a partner or spouse, whatever, who has seen how much stress that family member has caused them, whether it's a parent, grandparent, sibling, whatever they see it, and yet they see their partner running around like mad, trying to please them, trying to placate them, trying to do right by them. They're going, why? So not only does it break, not only do I despise that person because I've had to deal with their I thought I'm not their family member. Okay. Number one, you know, not only that, but then I see what they've done to you. I see how much they screw you, and then I see how much again this whole thing is hurting you. I see how when this happens, you're spinning. You're not there for me. You're not there for the kids or whatever else like that. Right? And and then I'm also and then the partner. Often I have to drive you or I have to do this, or I'm part of this whole crazy, you know, pattern and dynamic and everything. So there's so many layers that a toxic relationship, you know, manifests itself in and so I try to help people. I try to help them step back and say, what is in your best interest? And again, turning your back on a family member, no contact, setting. You know, again, I use the worst case scenario with someone who may be dying or old and frail, but if in any situation you have to recognize right, their family obligations, their sense of duty, their sense of decency and so on, but at what cost? And that's where you need to step back and go at what cost to me, to my partner, to my family. So my well-being. So and I know that you've seen exactly what I'm about to say here. And I think that those cultural factors that you mentioned are usually the hardest to overcome, not to say that those obligations don't exist in the typical white North American family, but I do think that we can agree that the pressures are much stronger in, you know, families who are from other countries, other cultures, and in Asian cultures specifically, there's this idea of filial piety and exactly what you were saying before, where no matter how horribly parents have treated the adult children or when they were actual children, there is still this non-negotiable responsibility to the parents that you must care for them. So that's a really difficult one for people to reconcile of, you know, living in this world and in this culture. We know that, frankly, we do have more options and we do have the ability to think it through. But being stuck between those those two cultures is very difficult. Right. And here's how I trump that. I just had this conversation just recently, like how many times I say that if I asked your parents or grandparents or, you know, the culture, the cultural or whatever leaders why this should be, they would at some point, you know, I would lead them to this. They would bring up values, Right? It's about values. We values lead us. All right. So what I tell them, as I say, okay, well, then what we need to do is I say we need to reframe this as I can have a number of values and the top values, the number one value is well-being, personal well-being that has to trump everything else. And you and I think we've had this discussion before being self-interested. A It's what every single creature on the planet is if they're healthy. And B does not mean being selfish. It means taking care of yourself first. And we hope that if you take care of yourself first, that idea is so then you can take care of others. And if you're not, take it so that we learn this. The first thing we learn in any health or mental health field, right? You've got to be able to take care of yourself first. Then you can do right by others. So I say you have to prioritize that. And if you're, you know, whatever system you're living under, the culture's in the filial piety, right? You know that you have to, you know, prioritize them. Well, that's a value that they've tried to impose on you. Right. And that, again, as long as you say that my first value is my well-being, then whatever they've tried to do to you, say that's going against that value, or they may not have done it on purpose. They may just be following tradition or custom or whatever. Okay. But you cannot let them nobody nobody should impose a value on you. You should be able to you can take it in, you can learn for it, whatever. But you should be able to have your own list of values. And I tell them, I say, look, some of these things that we're talking about, these were from thousands of years ago or whatever. Times have changed. And then I start talking about the value of adaptability. You've got to be able to adapt anyway. So that's what I talk about with that. And so that's with, again, the worst case scenario, as with any other situation. I tell them once again, you it's the same thing about prioritizing your well-being and then being able to have, you know, whether it's written the handwritten letter, whether it's email, whether it's text. He texts, emails to basically cut a family member off through text just seems almost tacky. It's like breaking up through text. You write a letter or an email just somehow seems a bit more, I don't know, has more gravitas than than a text. Okay. Or I say to people, I say, you give them the whole letter or whatever and say, If you want to discuss this in person, I'd be happy to do that. But you lay it all out written first because people, especially when we're having those old triggers. Yeah, from childhood and we feel like a child, we get frozen up and can't say it. You know, I've seen people do this in my family therapy and so on. I just like to see them revert to that child. They just Right. Put it all on paper. It's okay. And when we meet, we're going to bring you this document so we can talk about it. But at least it's all laid out. The boundaries are set. Oh, sorry. How by that the boundaries are set and you know, and this is what has to happen in, you know, and be telling the person, look, if you care about me, it's going to sound like I'm you're guilty, but you're not guilty. You're just laying out the facts. If you actually do care about me like you say, then why would you want me to suffer? And if I'm what you're telling me, that having a really with me is suffering? Well, yes, the way it's going. Yes, it is. And I don't want that. And so again, this by the way, this is the pre cutting off part where you're trying your damnedest to make sure it doesn't get to that. And saying that's the last thing I want this to is up to before that. Because as I said earlier, if you do all of that, if you lay it out and say this, this is tearing me apart, this is breaking me, I can't sleep at night, my marriage is falling apart, I'm going to lose my job because I'm so stressed out. So all I want to do is be able to mend this, make it work. And if you say all of that in a in a humble, respectful, civil and compassionate manner and the person still can deal with that, then you can say, I did everything I could. Yeah, now it's time for no contact. Yeah. And that is the sad reality of it is that despite one's best efforts, sometimes it's not going to change. Kind of a silly analogy, but I'll use it. So I broke a nail this morning and I was sitting there and filing it and finally and I'm like, maybe if I just like, do this, or maybe if I file this corner of it, it'll look fine. No, it looks like garbage. An issue that just cut it off in the first place. But I use this analogy because that's the same thing that happens in families, is that oftentimes like, well, maybe if I take this angle or maybe if I try this or maybe-- No, just sometimes you just need to stop, acknowledge that you did the best that you could and other people's behavior is outside of your control. We only have control over what we do, what we say. And sometimes how we feel. And if others aren't willing to play ball, then so be it. But that can't be internalized and easier said than done, but can't be internalized as a failure on one's own behalf. Because unfortunately this is how families can be with your letter writing suggestion. I just worked on this with a client the other day and what we worked on was writing a letter that she's actually going to read to her mom. So similar idea, but at least kind of keep her on track. It'll be a little bit more eloquent than just going in and talking about it, you know, freely, because like you said, that can be, you know, very upsetting and people can shut down in those situations. But I think the theme of what we're saying maybe let's add into the drinking game prepared, going in prepared with these conversations is incredibly important. Right. And go back to WEWYE/WEWYE, which is again, it is some of the you've known for all of your life, whether a sibling, parent or whatever. Right. You being prepared means knowing who this person is and and not lying to yourself and not having wishful thinking. You know, it doesn't help anybody. Okay. Having hope and optimism is one thing, but it's got to be at least based on some kind of reality. And if you know, the person being prepared, as you say, whether it's having because that goes back to if I know I'm going to talk to somebody and try to just, you know, tell them how I'm feeling or whatever, if I know them well enough, I know that they're either going to cut me off or they're going to turn things around, or they're going to try to guilt me or whatever else, and that's going to throw me off. So there's no shame in saying, knowing all of this, I will come prepared. I will write the letter ahead of time. I will say, please let me finish or, you know, if they cut me off, say no, please, I, you know, just sticking to your guns, sticking to your boundaries, and just making sure. And again, I keep using this word boundaries, cause I want people to understand that it's not a bad thing. Boundaries are not barriers, only worst case scenario, are they? Until that point, all you're doing, I'll say it one more time so people can really get it. All you're doing is doing what any person has the right to do in any dynamic, which is saying here is my expectations, needs limits and so on. Right. And please respect them just like I will do yours. Right, by the way. And boundaries exist so we can have a relationship with people. Well, exactly. Yeah. Without that, it's What is it right now, by the way? Of course, this just for interpersonal things. I'm not talking about at work. Yes. You can't go to your boss. Well, here's my limits. And I mean you can to some degree, but I'm talking about interpersonal. So. Yeah. Yeah. So I know we've been talked about this quite a bit or I have. So getting back to Christmas and the holidays and everything, the other thing that some people say as well, but I don't celebrate Christmas so yeah, well then pick whatever it is. Obviously this applies to any, any special supposedly special time. You know what, I can't think of a whole bunch of different ones, but it doesn't matter. It's all about, you know, we're talking about family, we're talking about expectations, we're talking about boundaries. We which in theory, by the way, if you're going to try something new, if you're going to try to assert yourself or please people less, okay, or try to cope with your guilt or anything in theory. In theory, family is where you're supposed to be able to do this the first place they're supposed to be the safe space for you to be able to do that theory. And so if it's not that place, then what does that tell you? Okay, then that's again, that gives you further impetus to set stronger boundaries without guilt. And once again, I'm going to say it sounds great. And by the way, I said earlier, I keep saying this all the time. I know it's only words, but the sooner you start committing to those words, the sooner you start reframing, the sooner you start incorporating a new narrative to yourself, Eventually you will be able to have a healthier dynamic with other people. You will be able to put those boundaries in no context when you need to be, when you need to do so, and you'll be able to do all of that without the guilt. It's not to be some jerk or whatever else like that. It's just again, prioritizing yourself not to be selfish and mean or whatever, but to to keep it to maintain your your well-being. Absolutely. So I think we spent the whole episode talking about what people can do with all of this. But, you know, to to summarize, I identify what some of your triggers are, recognize that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Recognize that, you know, sometimes, despite your best efforts, things may not go the best, but you got to put your own self-interest first because you can't, you know, function healthily if you're not doing so. And I guess something I'll add here is ensuring that you have strong social supports outside of the family. I think that's incredibly important too, because as the old cliche goes, we don't pick our family, but we certainly can pick our friends and we can pick the people who are supportive and kind and understanding of who we are. And if we're lucky enough to have that, it can make some of these family dynamics a little bit more tolerable. Right. And to that point, just something to call back. Something said earlier about having a partner or something like that or a family member or something like that, having them outside is good. And it's even better if within that system you have that person, including your partner, and having these discussions with them, being vulnerable with them and saying, Look, this is going to be really tough. I'm seeing my parent or even the in-laws maybe like feel like just you're the unit. If you have a partner, you are the unit. And you need to make sure that when you go into the battlefield, you have each other's backs. Okay. And one thing we didn't talk too much about, I know we were kind of going over time, but loneliness and everything like that, it can be a really terrible time for people, you know, if they don't have the family, if they don't have friends or whatever. So all I'm going to add to that is there are groups, there are communities, there are ways that you can find that interpersonal connectedness and anybody can sabotage any good thing you say, Well, here I am sitting with a bunch of strangers. I'm such a loser, I don't even have family or whatever. Okay, well, or you can frame it as it's unfortunate that I don't have family or I don't have a healthy family or a partner or whatever. But hey, I have the wherewithal to reach out. I spoke to somebody. Maybe it was only an hour on this day or whatever, but okay, I have to have some self agency. I'm going to try my best and for whatever reason, it's easier for others. And it's very difficult for us, you know, for some people. But trying your best to say, you know, I can't control all these family members or these people who don't invite me to parties or whatever, but I will do my damndest to find some way to connect with somebody, you know, And it can be online, ideally in person finding something again. And but the the person's tendency is normally to go, but it's not this. But it's not as good as that. Yes, yes, yes. Recognize your tendencies and say, I know I want to do that, but I can't. I need to make the best of it. And if I make it through this season, this holiday or whatever, maybe I'll spend the next 300 and some odd days trying to prepare for next year. And if I it's not going with family or whatever else, I'm going to find a more enjoyable thing because if I plan ahead, there can be something that I will actually get some benefit out of. Absolutely. Yeah. So, listeners, we want to hear from you about this topic or and I again like we start out with know how difficult a time of year this can be for people because of all the things that we talked about today. So leave us your comments, leave us your thoughts and we'd be happy to respond. And on that note, until next time, keep your eyes on the road, and your hands upon the wheel.