kids are learning that being punctual, you know, doing your homework on time, being respectful and. Embracing. Racist, because that's only what white people do, Hello and welcome to Awake at the Wheel. So in today's episode, we're going to be addressing some concerns that have been popping up across school systems. And namely, we'll talk about some things that are going on here where we live in Ontario. So for some time now, the topic of math being racist has been an ongoing talking point. To the extent that the way in which math is being delivered has changed, the streaming system of our math for high school students has changed all in an effort to, again, I think, good intentions here to level the playing field. But the execution is not so great. So recently there was a court case and I'm summarizing here, but we'll put a link in the description so people can see it in full. But the general summary here is that a group of teachers in Ontario felt that in order to teach math, there's a test that needs to be done by teachers that they can indicate that they are qualified and able to teach math-- What a novel concept. But there accusations made that this test process in and of itself is racist. And I think perhaps that arose from the fact that some of these teachers were not able to pass the test. However, this was not barring them to teach in general. This was a test that they could write an unlimited number of times until they passed. And the goal of this test was to ensure that they're able to do the basic math that they're going to be teaching to students. I think it was covering things like grade three, math, grade six math, and maybe grade nine or ten math. So nothing terribly arduous in my opinion. But long story short, this got, I think, in the first lower court, it was deemed that, yes, it was discriminatory and then in the higher court was deemed to be like, no, it's not so Oren, fill in some of the blanks or X. I know that you did some reading and watching about this as well. Well, I don't know which blanks to fill. I think you got all of it. Okay. It was a four. That was a very good summary. So I can fill in with my incredulous commentary. Like, blows my mind. Actually, the only thing I'll tell you is that I think it was three, six and nine. Not grade Ten math, so. Okay. And everything else said is everything that I saw and how racist. I mean, the claims in of themselves are racist and so many people. Now, as soon as I say this, people are going to say, well, that's a right wing talking point. No, it's not a right wing talking point. It's a non-racist common sense talking point, which is that e to expect equal outcomes for all groups, you know, quote unquote, groups. However you want to however you want to group them is ridiculous. It's immature, it's naive, it's ignorant and it's outright stupid. Just doesn't happen. It's just not possible. Now, if you took that, is it. That just doesn't make sense. And so to it. But then to assume that the difference in these, let's say, performances is due to racism. Well, that's you know, that's just a there's no backing for that. And now people will find evidence to support that. But I can find evidence that, you know, chocolate ice cream will make you a better lover. I can find evidence of evidence like going out in the sun is going to end up causing you to go blind or something. You can always you can connect the dots in ways that tell a certain narrative. But just because you've connected the dots in that way doesn't make it valid. And it certainly doesn't make it beneficial. Absolutely. And one of the things that seems to be forgotten and like perhaps this is racist of me to even point out, but one of the things that's never spoken about in this discussion is the role that socioeconomic status plays with regard to students performance in math. So I may have the numbers off a little bit, but I think the 2022 IQ testing, which is in Ontario here, it's the standardized testing that the Ministry of Education administers to gauge where Grade six students are in terms of their math abilities. And long story short, there are significant deficits across the province. And, you know, in part, it could be attributed to COVID and, you know, the gaps in learning that occurred from that. But when you look at the demographics of our province in general, as as divided up by race and ethnicity versus the way that students performed, there is not a direct correlation. And yet it was somehow made into an issue of race in many cases. But socioeconomic status is really important to understand and recognize in this context, because oftentimes those who are of certain ethnic groups, unfortunately, do find themselves in a higher population of lower socioeconomic status. And take that for what it's worth. I mean, that's just what the stats say. I'm not suggesting one thing or the other, but in being in a lower socioeconomic group, one is going to have less access to things like tutors or additional resources or even the time of their parents to be able to sit down and do math than because they're busy working perhaps multiple jobs, whatever the case may be. But again, we can't strictly look at this as a race issue because there's so many factors involved. But yet here we are finding ourselves with it being boiled down strictly to race. So today's drinking game, word is going to be socioeconomic status. You're absolutely right. That is the main factor that can explain Disqus. That's one of several main factors, but that's perhaps the primary one that can explain discrepancies in scores. And you gave all the reasons. Plus one more is the students themselves are dealing with certain stressors that prevent them from being able to study as much. If you're from a low socioeconomic status and there's myriad factors that we can bring in, but the point is it's not about race per say. So for anyone who does say it is about race, whether it's about the students or the teachers, you're being racist and how the people who are saying this can't see it, it blows my mind. And that's where ideological capture or ideological possession comes in. And they've just bought into this narrative. And so it's it's simple minded, it's weak minded, it's ignorant, and it's ideologically possessed people and also very self-serving for whatever reason, whether they're trying to find excuses for their own deficits, whether they're trying to assuage their white guilt or whatever you want to call it, whatever the case may be, there are people that need to understand there are not, let's say, valid, scientifically supported explanations for these discrepancies when we talk about it being about race. Because, again, if you say it's about race, then truly you are saying you're making a racist statement. If you say it's about socioeconomic status and the certain racial groups because of historical injustices and so on and current injustices are causing them to have a harder time. Great. I'll take that as one of the factors. But for it to be the be all end all factor ridiculous. And when you said, by the way, that a certain number of teachers, they showed that yes, teachers with certain skin colors did do more poorly, significantly more poorly on this test. So the question arises, I used to teach this in class all the time when I went to do like intro psych or other courses where we would talk about intelligence and talk about difference in groups and so on. What I said was, we need the studies to show if there are discrepancies between any types of groups, whatever that grouping may be, I'm putting quotation marks around groups. Okay, we need those studies not to say, this group is superior to that group, but rather to say why, if there is a discrepancy, let's find out why. And unfortunately, over the last number of decades, they have not allowed us to do proper research to find out the why. They have told us why it is and the why makes them feel good. It prevents people from having to work harder. It prevents people from having to take personal accountability and try to improve their situation. It denies the reality of so many people who did come from disadvantaged circumstances, whether their skin color was this, this or that, whether the demographic was this is what they were able to overcome. And it just denies their existence, basically, and it denies their achievements and instead gives us an answer that they believe is the answer. But the research does not bear it out. Okay. Or if it does, sorry, that's an interpretation of the findings. And people are too afraid to look at all these different factors because as soon as you do now you are a racist and you can lose your license, your job, your livelihood, your reputation, your future and your own well-being, and if we think about Richard Blitzsko a principle in Toronto, we talked about this with Chanel Pfahl months ago, who tragically took his life when this type of ugliness, not reality based ugliness, just ugliness was used against him and it was too much for him to be accused of these things. Somebody who's, you know, devoted his life to education, to trying to improve the education system for all types of students. We tragically lost somebody because ignorant, biased, self-serving people were promoting messages that just don't jibe with reality. And when you're being gaslit that way, for some people, unfortunately, it leads to horrible consequences like it did with Richard Blitzsko and many other teachers and principals and trustees who are trying to speak up and go, No, no, again, it's not about race per se, it's about socioeconomic status and other factors. And if it is about race, sorry, if it is about race, then let's do the research to find out why. Don't just tell me historical injustices. Therefore therefore we should lower standards. Let's find it out and let's find a way to actually elevate people rather than bringing everybody down. This is and I may have cited this in a previous episode, and I forgot to mention this in another episode we did recently, but it's the Herald. This the Kurt Vonnegut short story, Harrison Bergeron. And for those of you who don't know, it was about a society in the future where anybody who was too tall, who was taller than the norm, they had surgery to make themselves shorter. Anyone who was too smart, they had something implanted with brain that was constantly sent messages or signals that, you know, that prevents them from thinking smart. So that's what we're doing. We're reducing the standard to to something or to the common denominator, which is you should never try to reduce yourself to the common denominator. You want to elevate people to a better standard. But I think, you know, a more comical analogy that's not is as culturally significant as Kurt Vonnegut is. The movie Idiocracy. Yes. Yes. Right. It's the same idea where everyone's just, you know, I'm sorry, dumbed down and and everyone's the same. And you're made fun of for being intelligent. Like it's it's one of these things where no joke, my husband, I watch that movie every five years and look and say, looks like things are moving more and more in that direction. So for anyone who hasn't seen it, I recommend it. It's funny, but kind of, you know, scary to see the similarities to real life. And by the way, and sorry, I was going to say with Idiocracy before calling from that the fact that at the very beginning, when they explain how we got to that place, what was what was the reason? Socio economic status. Yeah, that's that was the reason that people weren't having kids. That's right. So. Yep. So it's interesting in in in the race obsessed nature of all of this and all that's being propagated in the school system. And I say that plainly because this is what I'm seeing. It's convenient though, that certain races are excluded from this math conversation. And I know I share the comical comments of my son often, but one of the things that he said is, well, everyone in our family is good at math and we're South-Asian, or at least he's half South-Asian, half white. So it's funny, but also not funny because it is convenient that we talk about race and how it impacts math. But not if you're Asian and not if you're South Asian, Not if you're of these races, but only if you're of these races. Well, know that oftentimes in those situations, socioeconomic status is the differentiating factor. And speaking of my son, so he is gearing up for high school. So was asking some questions about what to expect in grade nine and this and that and he was asking me some questions about this whole idea of streaming. So for anyone who doesn't know, essentially in the past, back in your day or and I think it was general and advanced math back in my day was academic and applied. And now I believe the way that it's gone is there's just one level of grade nine math for everybody. Is that correct? I believe that was the description we had general applied and basic level. Okay. Actually, we had we had level three, just you know, we had level three, four or five and six. Four Was general really or was general. I think five was advanced, six was what was called enriched or something like that. And three was really based on back in the days. So we have four different between. Okay, interesting. And yeah, the idea for that it makes sense, right? Because different people have different abilities in math, different people have different career aspirations, some that require math and some that don't. So it only makes sense. So the question that my son asked me about this was, well, it probably cost them a lot of money to change around the system completely and do it this way. Why didn't they instead spend that money on getting people the extra help that they need with math instead of making people like me do more basic math? Because that's not fair to me. And I kind of just shrug my shoulders while thinking, Yeah, he's right. And I recognize that when it comes to the school system, there's a lot more complexity to it that I don't understand and I can completely recognize that. But again, it's this lowering of everybody to the lowest common denominator rather than recognizing that what about the people at the top? What about the people who aspire for more? They're suffering because of this, too. But that doesn't seem to matter. Right. And just so people are clear, even though we're talking about math, because the math is racist, what's the most ridiculous, most recent, ridiculous story that we saw these different streams could apply also to, you know, to English, to, you know, science, to all these other different school classes as well. And I don't know where the streaming is right now, but yes, I've said this so many times to so many people, which is, you know, for society to flourish, you only need a tiny, tiny proportion of people who are superior, basically, whether they're gifted in math, technology, psychology, medicine, politics, law, whatever the case is only a tiny percentage because they're the ones who are going to advance everybody else. And that's how humanity has been since the beginning. There was a there were a tiny proportion of leaders, and everybody else was just, you know, doing their bidding, so to speak, or just living the average normal life. Now, the system got taken advantage of, of course, with rulers, etc.. But the fact is society, it's it's a bell curve, right? And so there's got to be, you know, a few really great people at the top. And if we're preventing them from being able to, you know, to to explore their full potential, we're robbing all of society of the type of innovation of leadership that we need in order to continue to keep moving forward. And the thing is, and this is, again, here's the unintended consequences. I'm sorry, supposedly I think it's highly predictable, but supposedly unintended consequence of really bad execution. The fact is, many of those people in that 1% or 0.01% or whatever, they're not all white. They come from different backgrounds. And that's where somebody who whether it's a different color of the skin or bad socioeconomic status, if they're given that opportunity, some of them will find their place among the upper echelons. And those people are going to be the ones who help lead all of society. But that's not happening there, everyone. There's a ceiling, an artificial ceiling being put there, preventing the really, really super smart and super capable and super ambitious people from doing what they need to do. And and this and and think of this, if kids are being taught from the younger ages in school and parents are we've talked about it before, but parents are abdicating their responsibility. They think I'm just sending my kid off to school. They'll learn what they're supposed to learn, Right. If kids are learning, well, you know, just don't strive too hard because now you're just giving in to the white, you know, white superiority or what's called I can't think of the words anymore. So it's ridiculous. But colonialism and all this other stuff and we've talked about this before and there's lots of evidence where kids are learning that being punctual, you know, doing your homework on time, being respectful and. Embracing. Racist, because that's only what white people do, which is. Yeah, right. This is the messaging that people are getting. So I'm telling you, parents and we always talk about what you can do. I'll kind of just preemptively say that. But yeah, yeah. Don't don't pretend that this is not happening in the schools and I'll, I'll plug her one more time. Chanel fo BFA, AP fhL and she was on our podcast. Please people, check it out. We had a Multi-Episode podcast with her. She exposes this day after day after day. She shows what's actually a being taught in the classrooms and b what this teachers and teachers colleges are being taught. And it really is about making sure that this scourge of racism is dealt with first and foremost. Now, of course, racism is terrible. We've talked about it numerous times. Of course we should address it. But to say that that's the top priority and whether it's racism, whether it's, you know, again, transphobia, homophobia, whatever else the case may be, the fact is it's not an exaggeration to say so many teachers who are on teachers college are not getting the mindset of let's make sure these kids become the best kids that they can be the best sorry, the best students that they can be. They're trying to socially engineer them to make the best people, the best citizens, the best social justice warriors. That's not your job as teachers. Your teacher is to make the child capable of performing these particular functions that correspond to the subjects that they're learning. That's your job, not to make them into better citizens. Yeah, and as you're talking about this, this whole concept like homework is racist, punctuality is racist. And I'm truly asking you because you would have taught this more recently than I learned it, But I'm remembering like psychology and sociology 101 within the context of of Canadian culture, the ideas of accommodation and assimilation that, you know, that's fine, that we are a country made up of various backgrounds and ethnicities and so on. But in part, the Canadian culture as a whole is made up of, you know, many of these customs. But isn't it society's job and the individuals in society to accommodate and assimilate to the way that things are? So, for example, if one of the social norms in Canada is punctuality, it's not racist, it is assimilating into that culture. Am I wrong in saying that? No, you're absolutely right. And that's how you're supposed that's how you're supposed to have a stable culture is to have some shared ideals, shared values, shared expectations and norms. And yes, the alternative is chaos, or the alternative is to have all these pockets of people all doing their thing rather than having, again, an assimilated, assimilated culture. And when people hear that, okay, I'm just trying to spread white supremacy and so on, that was the reason for white supremacy, blah blah. Nope, it just happens to be that the color of the skin for dominantly happens to be white. Right? But it's not about white culture. It's about the culture where we are all living. And it was working pretty well. Does it work for everybody? No. So let's tinker with it and find a way to make it more accommodating for other people as well. And and, you know, and be more respectful and understand that, you know, not everyone starts from the same place and trying to help people out, being compassionate and so on. That's all worth exploring. But the way it's being done, it's so pathetically being done. I mean, it truly is. And I've got to say, I'm going to be mindful of my words here, but I have so many patients in different let's say, areas of society, and again, I won't even name them good on a risk. It okay, well, let's just say in the most important areas of society, I have patients there and when they tell me how things are being run, it scares them. And I'm going to say right now, I hate to say this, but a lot and a lot of them are it's because they're younger. People are being given far more power and authority to make decisions behind the scenes than they should be. I see younger I'm not talking about thirties and forties. I'm talking about early twenties, straight out of university, no life experience there. And what they learned at university was so unrealistic. They are trying to to to bring ideals. Right. But these are idealized versions of reality not feasible. Okay. And I think. I was going to say, I think that's something that many people who trained in a particular profession learn in terms of the difference between what you learn in school and what you learn in real life. Doing the job is that what we learn in school isn't, you know, realistic and it is ideal and it's important to learn that stuff. But it doesn't always fit. So for me to hear you say that now that is trying to be made to fit like that blows my mind. And I'm telling you right now, the people who are telling me this, they're usually a little bit older and I say older again, I'm not doing like 70 or 80. They are now anywhere from 30 onward and they are saying and going back to racism and everything like that. Now, not all of them happen to be white males, but many are they not only them, but other people as well. And they are saying that. And again, I don't mean we all started with math is racist. Well, there is a lot of racism going on. And it's the kind of racism that people are saying, no, it can't be racist because it's against white people. So how can it be okay? But it is making is whether the person is white, whether they're male, whether they're straight, doesn't matter if they are in a good position and they've earned that, you know, that position through hard work to expertise, through knowledge, you know, through through just being a good, decent person. And they got there. I'm not talking about the unwarranted elevation. I'm talking what they've earned their way to the top. They've seen every step of the way. They've had their hands in all these different systems and they know what works and they are being told by people with half the experience or one 1/100 of the experience Experience, not the expertise, not the knowledge, not the definitely not the intelligence. They are being told not to know. This system is not good. They don't have they don't have actual evidence or data to support that. The way it's working is not good. They have anecdotes, they have racism or something else. They have all these different narratives that, again, are not actually backed by science. Now, some of these narratives may be true. Maybe they are, but they haven't been shown through proper research. This just being imposed. These explanations are being pulled to the point of saying is, and again, So I'm going to take the color of the skin out, take out the age, take out the sex, take all that. Okay? All that you need to know is that people with the expertise, the knowledge, the experience, the intelligence, the wherewithal, the proven track record, they are telling me that they are seeing the worst goals being implemented. And we've talked about this before. Kudos to Scott Adams of Dilbert fame because he said it. I'm going to say it one more time. It's the goals versus systems and I'm going to say it. Okay. Now, he this is Scott Adams words, okay? He said that women think more in terms of goals. Okay? That's more about compassion and empathy and men think more about the systems. Now, as always, this is not a solid fact. It's on average. Okay. We do know that there are six different sorry, anyone who wants to die. There are that there are there are sex differences. Guess it's not everybody. Okay. We've talked about the feminization or the mask commoditization of certain of certain organizations. But the point is this goals, however you want to frame it. And again, I want to be clear, it's not all women, obviously, because Malini, as a woman, you know, there's so many things that we agree on, right? It's not about the words being use. I'm clear you're haters. I don't care. But anyway, so goals are ideals and they're short term and it feels good to do it. Let's eliminate racism. Well, who wouldn't want to do that? That's a goal. Sounds great. But the short term solutions that the quote unquote solutions that the people are implementing have, again, I've said it unintended to those people, very predictable to us. Look, you can see this kind of thing, right? Can't terrible consequences. You can't have goals without systems. You have to think, if I want to eliminate a certain disparity, how am I going to do it properly? What we've seen over the last number of decades in the education system in in mental health, in medical systems and in policy, in law, in government, in all these different places. We have seen laughably, let's not laugh, laughable because it's having terrible consequences, but we've seen laughably pathetic incompetent systems being or, you know, not well running systems being implemented. And this is what we're seeing today. And again, right now we are harming students because the system is failing the students and the people who are standing up. And we talk about in other podcast, the people who are smart enough and capable enough to see what's going wrong. They speak out, they get shut down. They are called a racist. They are called, you know, white supremacist. They're called all these terrible things. And their voices are not being heard. They're losing their positions, they're losing their licenses. They're losing everything that you take away from them. They're being shut up for no good reason. Yeah. And the thing is, you know, we often talk about, you know, look at what research says, look at what science says. And so on and so forth. But there's even some science coming out. And I know we've pointed this out in other contexts, but there's science, bad science coming out about this stuff, too. There's a 2022 case study that talked about the fact that white boards are racist and like, what is what they mean because it's white. No, what they're saying is that the person and I'm very generally summarizing and we can link the case study for anyone that wants to read it in detail. But long story short, they're stating that white boards promote white supremacy in so far as there's always a leader at the white board, there's always somebody who's, you know, leading a team or explaining something. And this excludes people who are in the margins. And it's just such an asinine idea that even the idea of being a leader is now racist and providing leadership to a team is racist. Like it is so bizarre. So and I was going to say, so what about when these blackboards. My son said the same thing? Well, I guess because they had white chalk, you fired it. Right? There you go. Yeah, but what colored chalk there is some of that, too, right? So but yeah. The point being, there's you know, there's it's almost like people are seeking to justify this narrative over and over again and to draw it back to, well, what can we do about it? I'm really kind of at a loss here in terms of what people can do, because it seems in many context that it is so out of hand. And like I said, I use that term race obsessed. Everything seems so focused on race when it has nothing to do with race. And let me also emphasize here that I recognize that racism is a real thing, is a real thing that has hurt real people. And I don't want to deny that. And it still does today. But that is not to say that everything boils down to race. So I guess if I can, you know, generally give a recommendation, like everything we talk about here, a heavy dose of critical thinking is necessary. And, you know, when it comes to things like the school system and changing all of that, it's it's just so big and it's just so far gone that I don't know what people can do at this point. But, you know, speaking up when something doesn't seem right is certainly a good start. Engaging with your school board trustee, being informed as much as possible about what your child is being taught in school is really important. And I would say maintaining an open dialog at home in terms of what they're being taught at school, what what might be ideologically informed and discussing how that either jives with or disagrees with the values of the family. Right. And a few more things that other people have said as well. Okay. But I want to bring it up because when you're having this discussion now, unfortunately, I know how it's going to turn out because I've tried this and I've seen how people react. But if you can get other people who are not who don't see what you're seeing, if you can, you know, so they're not ideologically captured. But they just don't really understand how bad it is. Try something like this and have these people watch it. You have to have them watch it. Which is this. You ask just a couple of questions. It's the most again, it's I'm sorry that it's used so often, but it has to be. And by the way, and the people who use it, everyone calls them, again, white supremacists or right wing or whatever, know a lot of people are saying this are centrist. It's not about politics at all. Not about the color of your skin. All right. Anybody from any quote unquote, group who has any sensibility, any you don't have to even be critical thinking a little bit of intelligence. All you need to be able to see these two things, which is this When they talk about discrepancies, disparities, when they say that, for example, I'm going to use race and then sex with race, they talk about how why aren't there more black people or, you know, this type of person, that person in these groups? Okay. Well, once again, as you said earlier, they always exclude certain people from certain races because they're doing too well. Well, that's because they've adopted white supremacy. So now, you know, Asian is the new white supremacists. Okay. It's ridiculous. But that's what they're doing. They have taken it as fact now. And so they get discriminated against as well. Very good. We know this about Harvard admissions and so on, where if because you're doing too well, we're not going to allow you to come in or we're going to change the standards to make it just voted against you. We know this. And one of the worst race grifters of all time. I have not heard. I've literally I've read and seen his words. I have not seen one intelligent sentence out of his mouth or out of his fingers. Ibram X Kennedy or Kennedy. Right. The only solution to racism that passes racism now or something to that effect. That the solution to the past discrimination is of current discrimination or something along those lines. Yeah. So and he's tried to soften that image before. So but the fact is this is what they're doing. So again, anyone who does too well. Harrison Bergeron we got to cut him down. So when it comes to race and people are complaining about not enough people, these positions, well, and here's the perfect question. NBA, NFL, Disproportionately high number of black people in the NFL and NBA. Okay. Is that because of racism or is it because of something else? And if it's because of something else, then why can't we say that? Maybe it's because of something else in these other areas as well as opposed to saying it's racism, therefore, we need for it because there are far more white people in America than black people. So why do the NBA and the NFL have a disproportionately high number of black people? And if I can add a positive spin on that, I think what that demonstrates loud and clear is that despite what this narrative says, black people are very clearly capable of high achievement and success and so what is happening, you know, earlier in life or at the grass roots level, that is not maybe promoting the same level of excellence in the academic space as it is in athletics. Right. Exactly. And we do know and we've talked about this in other podcasts where whether it's in academics and this is something we say earlier about talk about, you know, socioeconomic status and so on. It's also culture. Culture is not a genetically driven. It just there may be, you know, certain certain cultures might have similar genetics, but we all have the same, you know, very, very similar genetics. It's culture. And if you can say that we're not saying it's not a racist thing, it's if certain cultures promote certain mindsets, like about trying hard for school, showing up on time, being respectful, etc., etc., if that is if that leads to success, that leads to a better functioning society or family or neighborhood or whatever else like that, why would we deny other people that opportunity? Because of racism? No. If you can improve your lot in life by following certain steps, why wouldn't you do it? That's ridiculous. And again all the answers to this always end up being very racist answers. Anyone who tries to deny what we're just talking about is always inherent in that some type of racist sentiment. And again, you don't believe us go on to explain or any other social media platform and look for intelligent, capable, self efficacious black people telling their stories and they're going to say the same thing. Here's the keys to success. Don't listen to us, especially not to me. I'm just a white straight male. What do I know to other people who have proven through their own ambitions and actions how to succeed? And the final thing to say about the sex when we talk about, well, why aren't there more women in this this in this position? Well, okay, let's take a look at that. You know, 95 to 99% of all jobs where there are either fatalities or lots of physical hardships are taken by men. Okay. So why aren't more women fighting to do that? How many roofers do you see that are women? There are one one out of 100. So like that. Why isn't it 50, 50? Things like that? Why aren't we pushing for that? The teachers, psychologists these days, more women than men. Why aren't we knocking? Why aren't all these women giving up their positions and letting men take take over kind of thing, Right? Yeah. Give me a good answer to that and you will get lots of answers. But if you sit down and force the person to articulate the answer point by point and you challenge the ones that don't make sense, you show all the inconsistencies, you end up with a mess. So that's why I say have somebody with you or record it. Okay? I mean, let the person know you're recording, but get that answer and let other people watch and just see that it's an incoherent mess of a supposed answer that they try to give. That's how you sort of turn people and go again. It's not about color of skin, it's not about sex or anything else like that. It's about good ideas and bad ideas. Yeah, absolutely. So, listeners, we want to hear from you. Is math racist? Leave your comments. Let us know what you think about this. Let us know what you think about the discussion. And one last thing. Just because if someone says no with the racism math, there is one way that race can be that math can be racist. There is one way if and some people talk about this, because here's here's the game that they play, if we leave something out, they'll jump all over that. They'll ignore everything else we say. They'll say, No, no, that's the real problem, which is if the problems are the math problem that they use, Johnny has that that's okay. You can make those problems. You know, let's say speak to a broader number of people, change the names of the people in the examples. I do that in my exams as well, make it more culturally relevant to find examples that are, you know, don't go overboard where it's just it's pandering. You don't do that right, but you make it less white centric. That's the one way that I can see the race of math being racist if it's not pretty. And if the stories, if the examples and everything like that or the questions aren't, you know, more accessible to a more a wider group of people, that's one way I can see some to do that. So, yeah, with that, until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel.