your emotions are what they are because relationships are complicated. And like I said before, if it's complicated in life, it's going to be even more complicated feeling in death oftentimes. Hello and welcome to Awake at the Wheel. So in today's episode, we're going to be discussing something that unfortunately all of us will go through at one point in time, probably many in our lives. We're going to be talking about grief and bereavement. So to begin, I'll just kind of out line what grief is. In a clinical setting, we would refer to typical grief as uncomplicated bereavement. So what this is essentially is the normal feeling of sadness, loneliness, and even profound and sadness that can come from a loss of a loved one when they pass away. So although this is painful and sometimes debilitating, grief does eventually pass and movement forward back into regular life. Happy and productive life does happen. Unfortunately, in some cases, though, something called prolonged grief disorder can develop, and this often develops when grief and bereavement last for. That's certainly not a magic number, but lasts more than 6 to 12 months. And this can often look a lot more like depression. And it's tricky sometimes to discern the difference between grief and prolonged grief disorder simply because both of them can look like a depressive episode. So clinically speaking, we often will look at it from, you know, how long has it lasted for how severe the symptoms, how clinically significant are the symptoms? But the point is here of our episode today is how are people going to most effectively deal with grief, which, like I said, is something that everybody deals with at some point. So I found some common questions that have been Googled with regard to coping with grief. But before we get into those or in anything that you want to add about grief and even your experiences with clients with grief. I'm going to wait to see what the questions are and see where we go with that. I got lots to say afterwards, though. Okay, perfect. So let's jump in then to the first question. So the first question that I came across is what are the five stages of grief? So I think this is probably one of the most common things that people ask. And again, even in therapy sessions, people will bring this up. And it's one of those things where I think that we can use this as a loose framework, but it's certainly not a definite and certainly not something that everyone goes through. But typically those five stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. So as far as you know how this can look and how this can show up, the order in which it happens certainly can differ from person to person. Like I said, it doesn't always, you know, go step by step. And it's not that linear. But I think as a general framework, it does work. Yeah. So I use that not just for grief, for any type of loss. And that's one of the things that we're going to talk about, about loss and the importance of it, whether it's the loss of a loved one, it can be loss of a job like there's so many different type loss of a childhood, so to speak. So we'll talk about that. And I always do talk about the Kubler-Ross five stages of grief. And I see the research shows I mean, it's not very well supported in, you know, literally what I say. But the point is, A that you go through stages and it may not be those five. You may skip a couple, they may be different stages. But the fact is you are going to go through a stage to wherever you are. Now, I tell people, we're trying to get you to another stage because the B, the second most important part or the most important part is that at the end we're trying to arrive at acceptance. And so, again, I like the model to tell people that it's not going to necessarily be a smooth transition. You may be going bouncing back and forth, might be pinging back and forth between two things maybe anger and depression. Anger and depression. You might go back before you finally land on acceptance. But again, I like it as a model, sort of just to guide people, to let them know what they're, you know, the fact that they're transitioning through these different stages is totally normal. And most importantly, we're trying to get to the end, which is acceptance. Absolutely. So the next question that I came across is what should people not do when grieving? So I think this is a really important question because, yes, we'll talk about later on what people can do and how they can cope with it. But there's a lot that, you know, naturally, I think when people are in a really sad, depressed state, they can they can reach for maladaptive coping, unhealthy coping, fall back into old habits. Sometimes old feelings can be triggered. So I'll say a few things as far as what people should not do. I would say this is maybe I should do, but I'll start with the fact that it's really important to reflect and not expect one's self to behave a certain way or expect the grieving process to be linear. There's no wrong way to grieve insofar as there's no wrong way to feel. And something that I often point out to clients is that relationships that we're complicated in life are even more complicated in death because there's a lot of feelings of regret, remorse, unresolved feelings, unresolved, whatever. So that's the first thing that I'll point out there. And as far as some basics, as far as what one should not do, don't engage in excessive drinking or substance use, especially if one has a history of this. Those old habits, again, can be triggered by a significant loss or a loss in general. And I would say also, don't dismiss your feelings. Allow yourself to experience whatever is coming up. So as far as what not to do, those would be the first things that come to mind for me right. And that's the what you said about the maladaptive coping and everything is the second thing I say. The first thing that you said is also the first thing which I that I say, which is there is no like, let's say, prescribed way to grieve. Everyone's going to go through the process differently. And I say like, so I see what you say and I'll say, make sure you have the right types of support. And because the thing is, I'm more often asked or even to be asking the media, how do you help somebody who's going through grief? And I say, there's no one right way to grieve. There's no one way to help people. But there are many ways to do it wrong. And so, unfortunately, people with the best intentions, they usually come with the wrong execution. And so, for example, for them maybe getting back to work really quickly helped them to sort of not get stuck in their head. So they're pushing somebody to go to work when they're had their body. Nothing is saying that they're ready to go. They're still stuck in their grief and someone's pushed them to do that or hearing platitudes or, you know, trying to find solace in whether it's faith or whatever else. If it works for you, just understand it may not work for somebody else. So I always tell people that, you know, if they're trying to help somebody who's grieving, you know, the only thing you can ask is or they want you to say is a question, which is what can I do for you? How can I be there for you? Right. That's it. So if you are the person who's grieving, I always tell them. I say, be prepared for that. And they're not going to know because it can seem annoying. Maybe you just want to be left alone. But they don't know that. And they have good intentions, we hope. And so they're coming in there but kind of blind. So you have to guide them. I know it's like, my emotional label labor. Sorry, I know you're going through a lot, but again, because there's no one right way to do it, you know, it's all about setting boundaries and you may not feel able to do so. But that's the other thing. You talked about the remorse, know all the other stuff. You can feel the guilt and everything. Well, then people sometimes have that compounded by feeling guilty for not responding to people who are trying to help right there complicates the grieving process. So I say the thing is, in most cases, I tell people to, I say don't add an extra layer of stress to what's already such a difficult process for yourself if you're a grieving. I say so the guilt part with the people who are trying to help, I say they'll probably cut you slack. Okay. So if you're trying to set a boundary, if you're just not responding, if you're, you know, ghosting them or whatever, I say, in most cases, people will cut you slack. The point is, again, going back to what you're talking about, maladaptive coping, I say it's hard enough, hard enough as it is. Try your best not to layer on another level of stress, of difficulty, of complication. And I guess what I'll add there is, yes, setting those boundaries is incredibly important. And hopefully most people who love and care about you will understand if you're not responding. But I think that there's a really fine line between setting those boundaries or not feeling up to responding and isolating oneself because that is something that can frequently happen, that people just push everybody away and isolate, which can then make those feelings a lot worse. So I'll throw that in there as well. 100%. And that's one of the wrong ways to do it. The isolation. Exactly. You may need some moments of isolation, but to completely isolate yourself, we know that that exacerbates depression in a virtually any other issue. So, yes, we don't want to do it extensively. But, you know, for those times that you do need it and it's also you, and that's about boundaries. Maybe you open the gates a little bit, let people in for a day, maybe for a few days, you know, and then you need a bit of time to recuperate to be back in your head to to grieve the way that you need. But you're absolutely right. We don't want prolonged isolation. And to add to what you said, as far as I guess with both, I said that there's no wrong way to grieve necessarily. I would say also well, I did mention that general time frame that we look at as clinicians of 6 to 12 months. Also, don't hold yourself to a prescribed timeline. The loss, it's going to differ. You know, if, you know, sadly, somebody loses a child versus if they lose an elderly parent, that's going to feel very different. And the amount of time that it takes to go through that is going to be very different. Each individual is very different to some people are able to push through and bounce back more quickly or seemingly if, let's say, for example, going back to work is therapeutic for them. They may look like they're recovering faster, but, you know, the way that they're handling it just it looks different. Right. And again, I want to stress so much that if you I mean, I think statistically we will probably know more people who are going through loss than go through loss herself. If you think about if you have a large network of people. So I think it's so important to recognize, again, that this this idea that people grieve their own ways. And I've had many patients whose partners, for example, let's say a patient loses their mother and, you know, they're being stoic or maybe they didn't have such a great relationship with their mother or they need to do work or whatever the case may be, and the partner is. And it's usually I hate to sound sexist, but it's usually a that's a woman saying to her husband or a partner or a male partner, you know, why aren't you, let's say, being more expressive, Why aren't you letting it go? Why are you so stone cold? You know? And it's like you don't know what the how the person's processing. And that might be what they need. It doesn't mean it's wrong. Not everyone has to have this moment of immense grief in going through the grieving process. So I see that so often. I really do see that for all their good intentions and as you know, good intentions executed poorly lead to terrible comes. I often see the people around the person as much as they try. They end up not you know, they're doing maybe a little bit more harm than good or they're not doing as much good as they think they're doing. So again, don't push too hard. You know, don't assume that your way of grieving is the right way or that, you know, that people have to do this and this, especially that emotionality. But having said that, if somebody has absolutely no feelings or they don't express any feelings or no loss or anything like that, they're functioning really well and everything, and then they start exploding, or then they start, as you say, engaging in maladaptive coping, like maybe drinking more or gambling or doing something like that. Then I hope that they're open to the possibility that maybe they're not processing it in the way that they thought they were or as well as they thought they were. Absolutely. So I guess let's move to the next question of is there anything that can be done about grief? And this ties into a lot of what we're saying here that, you know, yes, there is, But you need to recognize that it doesn't look the same for everybody. It doesn't follow the same timeline. It doesn't follow the same pattern structure, methods and so on. But as a general framework and, you know, sadly in my clinical work, I've come across such tragic losses from people losing their partners to their parents, to their children, to miscarriages and in all cases, what I've recommended as a starting point is engaging in healthy self-care. And I sound like a broken record because I know I always say this, but diet, exercise and sleep. If we don't have those three things in order, any number of strategies really aren't going to stick. So getting into some sort of routine where you are mindful of your sleep patterns, what you're putting into your body, moving your body at least once a day is a really good starting point. We talked before about not isolating, so ensuring that you have some degree of social support that feels comfortable for you in those moments and it often is helpful. And again, I think this depends on the person, but leaning on others who are perhaps going through that same loss because while they may not be feeling the exact same way as you, they knew the person and they to some degree are sharing that same experience. Right? We are social animals. And I used to be asked as well in the media when some let's say somebody died in some, you know, tragic accident or something like that, and a community gets together or a neighborhood, whoever. And they, you know, I have different opinions of that. Some people need that. Other people don't. They might think it's for show. They might think it's almost diminishing the person's memory, whatever the case may be. But the fact is, I always said that the healthy part of it is, as you're saying, this, you know, connecting as humans, sharing the grief or the loss or the process with somebody else. But once again, the caveat being that if you if you, too, are reminiscing about somebody and one person, their way of doing of processing it is to find humor in it. You know, they're trying to remember the good times and everything. And and you're not in that state. You have to be mindful and be very open minded. Know that again, once again, that as much as we say other people have to be respectful of your grieving process, as you grieving, you have to understand that other people will grieve in different ways as well. So, you know, not everybody is going to connect with you over that loss the same way you hope you find the people who can. Most people can. And to that point, I want to get back to this about the there are so many wrong ways to support someone who's grieving. I say don't take no platitudes. None whatsoever. All right. Just a hug, a smile, you know, a sad smile. I said, ask me what I can do for you, you know, Can I bring you some food? Can I get whatever the case may be? But again, it's when people try to, you know, make either something profound or they're trying to console you through words. You never know how it's going to land. So don't try too hard. Connect in that. You know, the human the human connection sometimes is just being in the same space, just being able to connect, you know, with the eyes lock or something or in a touch, a hug or something like that that can do far more good. And one more thing, when you talk about all the people that you've worked with, you know, who've gone through such tragic losses, a couple of points about that. One, I've got to say, I've had a number of patients who, because of COVID, they were not able to properly grieve. They didn't have the ceremony, they didn't have the funeral, the wake, whatever that they needed, you know, to be able to to to commemorate the person's life, to mark their passing. And so they're still feeling that there's a big loss there they weren't able to end on. In addition to loss, there's anger. They're angry at the government. They're angry at people who maybe didn't try to circumvent rules to get back into Canada or wherever to to to be able to, you know, to celebrate or to commemorate. So, you know, there's a lot of complicated emotions around that and that they see the absence of the ritual. And I just want to sort of segue into the next point about that, which is we are you know, we are social animals, but we're also creatures of symbolism. That's why we have these rituals. It helps. It's a transition. So it's a point that the person has passed from, you know, this life to whatever you may believe, whether it's exited or, you know, whatever the case may be. But it's a moment, it's a period of transition. And the people who are still here are also transitioning. Now we're going to the next stage of life without that person. So find I tell people whether it's a funeral, whether you have, let's say, mementos, pictures, whatever it is, you find something that you can, you know, imbue with the most, let's say, the heartwarming, the feelings. You know, there's going to be of course, it's going to be bittersweet. You're going to you know, if you look at the picture, whatever, maybe it'll evoke tears or something that but it's just part of the process. You want to make sure, though, that it's not just something that's if you if you look at a picture every time and it only brings you pain, then neither is the wrong picture or it's the wrong symbol. You find something again and you imbue it with a positive memories as much as you can. So it almost feels like that person's always there. Again, we are symbols. If you are a waif on a trip from somebody that you love and you're gone for a few weeks or whatever, and then you know, you don't have face time or something like that, you're thinking about them again. That's the symbolism. You're you're you're still able to have some you know, you may feel a bit of longing, but you also feel the joy or whatever the memory. So, you know, we have the capacity, we have the our brains are designed in such a way that it allows us to capitalize on that. And so never discount the power of symbols and symbolism. Yes, I'll say a couple of things there. And I guess to add into symbols and symbolism, leaning on one's belief system or religion, because that often has a lot of maybe not answers, but at least guidance or direction in terms of the meaning of particular losses. So not being afraid to lean on that as well. But if I can go back to what you were saying about COVID and how that impacted people's ability to grieve, that really hits home for me and my family because we lost my father in law during the pandemic and weren't even able to see him see him in his last moments. So it's this weird feeling of like, you know, our last memory of him was he was healthy. We were spending time together, we were having a great time, and then he's gone. So not only were we not able to engage in the typical cultural rituals associated with death, but we weren't even able to see him in his last moments. And I know, unfortunately, that story is not unique. So many people have gone through that. And interestingly, a lot of the nurses that I work with as clients, they were in a position where they had to deliver those last words to a lot of their patients. So even they experienced a strange type of grief that I don't think, at least in our lifetime has been experienced before. Right. And it is so difficult and it's maddening for for a lot of people. And that's why I think we get to as well. It's like not just the ritual self, but the last days, weeks, months, sometimes not being able to see an elderly parent and so on, feeling helpless. And I mean, and that's the thing is we are all powerless to stop the ultimate end for everybody, right? So that sometimes for some people that the death of a loved one brings their own mortality or potential mortality in their face. For other people, it's the helplessness. And people don't want to feel helpless because that feels that you have no control and like we have no control over our death, we can we can extend our life as long as we can, but in the end, we don't have control over. That's the ultimate loss of control. And I always say that the most important goal of all human function of all species is to master or control our environment. So something like this just robs us of it. And so COVID did it much, much worse. We had no say. And the people who are supposed to be there to help us, whether the doctors or the government, you know, they're the ones who are preventing us from being able to do what we you know, what we need to do. So again, it adds a layer of complication. And for somebody who's trying to deal with loss and I see this with my patients as well, it really one of the things that complicates it is, as you mentioned earlier, about the regret, the remorse, the things that you weren't able to resolve, the unresolved issues that you have towards somebody, whether you feel bad about it, you know, you feel guilty or whether they hurt you and you were never able to reconcile properly or they never gave you what you wanted, they never apologized. So whatever the case may be, you know, if one aspect of this and I'm not trying to make business, but you know, is is proper therapy, and one of the most powerful techniques is something people can look into. And I won't get into it too much, but it's an emotional focus therapy technique called the empty chair technique. It's also gestalt technique where you put the person and this is important part. I get to a complication. You put the the other person in the chair and the person you know, the patient has a dialog with them and you switch chairs. It looks ridiculous, but it's so powerful. And the point is, the reason I'm saying all this is one of the goals of this technique is we're trying to pass the feelings. When someone has that person near the chair, it's usually a combination of like either anger, resentment, betrayal and hurt, loss, sadness, and they get combined. So we try to do is we try to pass them out, deal with each emotion, emotion separately. Okay. And then afterwards you're able to integrate them. You become more whole, more complete. And the problem is when people are, you know, grieving a loved one, they're often ping pong. They're not dealing with a smoothly, they're not integrating it. It's ping pong. So I'm angry that this person, let's say, committed suicide. But then, my gosh, how could I feel that way? So now they feel guilt and then, you know, then they feel sadness. And again, they're bouncing. It's like transitioning through stages. They're ping ponging, you know, through among all these different emotions. And that's not healthy. It doesn't they can't reconcile their feelings. So the reason I'm saying this is even if you don't do the therapy itself, earlier we talked about it's natural to go through these different stages. Well, to recognize that it's also just as natural to have mixed feelings. And if somebody passed away, they didn't kill themselves, they passed away. You know, through no means of their own. They just happened to do it. Still, someone might feel angry, like, I feel that you abandoned me, especially if someone has those types of issues. But how could I say that they died? How could I feel that way? Again, it's totally natural to have quote unquote irrational feelings because, you know, it's because we're humans. We we're irrational by nature. So anyway, just again, why you add an extra layer of guilt to your feelings if you're going through this process That, again, is totally natural to have these mixed feelings. And to add to the mixed feelings as far as, you know, what's come up more often than people would probably think is a feeling of relief sometimes a feeling of of happiness, of like, you know, this person was so awful to me. They were abusive. You name it. And then there's guilt that comes up with this natural feeling of relief. So again, to the point that we were making before, there is no wrong way to feel your emotions are what they are because relationships are complicated. And like I said before, if it's complicated in life, it's going to be even more complicated feeling in death oftentimes. Right. And the relief, again, this is I know we're going to be dealing with this in another video about that's a complicated relation with parents. But even if the person did, you know wrong, if you're their caregiver, if you have to go to their place every single day, you're working full time. You have a family of your own and they have to do that, or taking them to all these appointments or, you know, like paying all these bills for something. Yes, it's okay to feel relief. And that's one thing with my patients when I'm able to, you know, give them permission, they don't need my permission. But it's I see the relief on their face. Like I say, no, that's totally normal. You're not a bad person. You know, most people will say, okay, I'm only feeling relief because I know they're not suffering anymore. Well, that's part of it. Yeah. Yeah, It's perfectly human to to be relieved that not having to deal with this burden anymore. And there's nothing wrong. No, I'm not, you know, denigrating anyone's memory by saying that it was a burden. They may not be a burden, but the whole process was. So, again, being realistic about our feelings is so important. Yeah, and that reminded me, too, that recently a lot of the grief that I've worked through with clients has been regarding pets, and they always come in prefacing it with like, I know it's just a pet. I know it was just a cat or a dog, but blah, blah, blah. And they have to explain, you know, that close relationship. But I mean, me as a pet owner, I love my cats like their children. I seem like you see, and I'm practicing to because I feel like I'm a crazy person, how much I love my pets. But that's that's pets, right? I think pet owners do have that common understanding of unconditional love and so on and so forth. That's a very, very different relationship than with a human. And sometimes the loss can feel even more profound, I think, because of that unconditional love. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's that's 100% what is going to say is that unconditional love among humans, technically, it doesn't exist. You can say it, you can aspire to it. But in reality, even Carl Rogers, the person who coined we call that unconditional positive regard, even he said it's in reality, it never actually happens. Okay, You know, we're humans, so we can try, but it doesn't actually happen. So for pets. So yes, there is. And so you're absolutely right. And that's you know, again, when we talked about sort of, you know, the symbolism and so on, more people, I think people are more likely to put a pet's face on their body, like through tattoos, you know, then maybe a person's face. I know some people do that right, as well. But yeah, but that's it's a great way it's a great way to symbolize, you know, again, the loss of a true loved one. And I always tell people when people say, as you say, like they feel embarrassed, almost like, no, no, no. I know quite a few people who didn't cry at their own parents funeral, but they did with the passing of their pet. And I know how devasted I'm going to get emotional now with our beloved Rusty, 18 years and two months old, our dog. And you know that. And we had you know, just the process was just yeah, I saw what it did to our family. And that to me was like, you know, that's hard enough dealing with the loss of myself and seeing my family go through that. So again, I tell my patients I never, ever feel bad or crazy or never apologize for grieving your pet, even if it's more than a human. And it's tricky because I think, you know, this applies with pets mostly, but I think in relationships in general that oftentimes when people go through such profound grief, they are afraid to then love again or get another pet or get into another relationship. But it's such an interesting dichotomy because I think that the in many cases, the greater the pain and the loss, the stronger, you know, that relationship was. So it's such a paradox of, well, you're going to feel incredible pain if there was incredible love. Right. And, you know, still saying, what is it better to have loved in life than to never loved at all? So again, it's about framing and and it's tricky because emotions will override logic in most cases. But the only way to help heal is through the classic. We have to frame things in ways that are the healthiest. So finding it's not about making use, novel, rationalizing. So again, it's not all platitudes, but it's being able to frame your either the the loss, the love you had for the person before the loss moving forward, the whole process and everything is framing it. It's how you frame it. And that will determine to a large, large part how well you're able to get through this process, because one of the things is we're talking about this and one thing is that people are so afraid that if they lose a thing, whether it's a partner or whether it's a parent or whoever it is or a child, God forbid, they think that if I one day find happiness, if I move on, if I am able to be myself again, and I somehow desecrating the memory of the person, because how can I go on with joy when I've lost the love of my life or whoever that person is? And I say, No, no. And I always tell them. I say, that person. Do you think that they would, if they loved you? Do you think they would want you to spend the rest of your life suffering? No. And I and that's the framing. I tell them, you have to do it. You're doing it for them. That's a symbolism. Again, you say, this is what I'm doing. This for you, for us, for our memory and so on. So I can't be the drinking water of the day, you know, the framing. It's how you frame the experience. Yeah. So the last question we'll explore here is how long does grief last? So we kind of have this interwoven through all of our discussion here, but ultimately it does vary across situations, across cultures, across relationships. But if symptoms and again, this is how we would look at it and how we would frame it as clinicians. But if symptoms have lasted at clinically significant levels for six months to 12 months, it's worthwhile seeking out professional guidance, professional help with it. Again, there's no specific timeframe. Like we've said, but looking at the severity of symptoms, if they've lasted severely for that amount of time, that's probably your sign to go and get looked into a little bit more further. Right. And as with most, let's say, disorders or issues that we deal with, it's is how is it affecting you internally and also externally if it's affecting if you're not able to work, if you're not able to be there for your family or whatever, those are the markers. And again, it's these are not carved in stone. These are guidelines that a number of psychiatrists, psychologists get along, you know, get together with do some research, use some clinical expertise and determine. And it's kind of arbitrary whether it's one month, six months, a year. So and again, so it's only guidelines, number one. And number two, this whole idea of being able to a, again, support you get the support, whether it's, you know, your loved one's community, faith, whatever, or professional support and be trying to move forward. And that's how you frame it. Whatever I'm doing, I am doing this so that I can continue to move forward. And there was one of the part about that. It's where you can go. We said this before, I'll say it again. It's like don't have expectations. Even though these are timelines that you know that experts quote unquote have. Just you know, I've described, if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit for you, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. Like somebody. For example, I've had a number of patients where it's actually quite interesting. The anniversary of the death is coming up. Yes. And it might be it could be the first time that's going to be some of the hardest, but it could be ten years later. And they don't even they didn't even recognize that it was the anniversary. But they were feeling really down. And I say, again, that's that's you may not be consciously aware of it, but somehow your body knew that it was connecting whether it's around Christmas time or the season or whatever it is. Your body knew this. And so again, it's the frame is like, okay. And they thought that it was ten years ago. How could I? It's again, we're human beings. We're not entirely rational. So even if you have a setback years later, right, then you frame that as okay, it doesn't mean I'm still harboring this loss or it just means, wow, this person had a really profound impact on me. I'm sad that they're gone, but I'm going to try to cherish the time that I did have with them again. Frame. Frame, frame. Yeah. I'm so glad that you brought that up because I forgot. And then as soon as you mention it, I'm like, Yeah. So I would say almost consistently when a client is like, I'm just not feeling quite right and I don't know why. Almost always it's tied to some anniversary of some loss or, you know, sometimes a trauma, but oftentimes a loss. And yeah, consciously we may not be thinking about it or recognizing it, but it's stored in the body and the body does remember such things. And also, like you said, the first year is usually hard. And, you know, it's not the hardest per se, but the first the first birthday, the first anniversary, the first Christmas and so on and so forth. Just allowing oneself to, you know, feel that loss during those times is completely okay. And it's something that one should do. Right. And conversely, when you feel it less okay and it's funny because it's an irony because when people are going through such profound loss, they want nothing more than to not feel this way. Right? And so, you know, and even as I've had this, I think when is going to end? When's this pain going to end? And so I don't know. We're working toward that. And then when it finally does and then when an anniversary of the loss or a birthday or whatever comes up and they don't feel terrible now they feel guilty. wait. Like why am I feeling Wyoming? I feel this loss. And again, it's another layer of complications, unnecessary hurt that you're putting on yourself. I say it's natural. That's a good thing. You're not forgetting them. It just means you're healing and that you're able to move on in a healthy way because still, symbolically, they're up in your head. I'm not remembering their face as much as they used to. Okay. All right, fine. Then maybe that's a sign saying that you got to focus on other things. You may not remember their faces clearly, but again, whether it's a memory, whether it's a memento, somehow they're still with you. They're still a part of you. Once again, frame, frame and frame. And one other thing. Final point. You mentioned it, and I say this to people and I kind of just as the anchor and God forbid, it's I know it happens far too often, but I say and if anyone, anyone who's watching this has gone through this yourself, if this doesn't apply to you, then I am so happy for you. But and I'm not trying to make things worse for you. But people ask, there was once a it was a TV show and I don't mean to say it, but, you know, they think of the Swedish show and there was one line I thought it was just so it resonated. So someone had lost their child. The child was murdered and then someone else, they go, they meet someone who whose child also was murdered. And they said something like, you know, like, when does the pain end? And the person just says, Never, Yeah, okay. And so when I'm explaining this to people, I cite that as well, and I say, just normalizing it, right? If you lose a child, our brains aren't wired to accept that. So if you do, you know, you'll expect that you're going to carry that pain forever. But the fact is we all carry some type of pain. So we try to compartmentalize as much as we can, but recognizing that still the things will never quite feel the same. It's the worst loss. You know, people may argue, but you know everything I know it's the worst loss and we're just not used to it. Parents aren't supposed to outlive their children. It's just that's not the way it is. Okay. So once again, if someone feels that way that it's like having a catastrophic injury where you're never going to work again, you're never going to be the person you're going to be again, like, you know, there's no words that can make you feel better. You can just be there for the person and encourage them to try their best. And, you know, it's it's like having I don't know if I said this before in on on the podcast, but with some patients, I say it's like you're coming in with a pillow with a plastic bag over your head and all I'm doing is taking a little pin and pricking a few holes. And when people hear that, they appreciate that it might sound like gruesome imagery, but again, it's symbolism. They recognize by saying that that no matter what I say, I'm not pretending like, I've done a great job. They're going to walk out of my office now feeling better. I'm saying, yeah, no matter what I do, you still are suffering. And all we can do is try and procure there and that type of recognition of what they're going through. That's empathy. Platitudes are not empathy, that is. Yeah. And you bring that up. I feel like we could talk for probably another hour about grief when it comes to, you know, major changes in life and, you know, accidents, loss of limb, loss of a job like it goes on. But I guess the point is a lot of what we've spoken about today does apply in those situations as well. But to our listeners, I'd like to know, you know, what are some of your questions about grief? What are some of the complicated things that have come up regarding grief that we can maybe talk about in another episode? Right. And again, as very things that we could talk about this for a long time about these different things. So I will add to that is so for somebody, if you have, you know, and lost a job or you had a major change in your life, that does that is a loss. Okay. Or again, that your parents weren't there for you or someone didn't support you or protect you or whatever, just recognize that, yeah, that is a type of loss and you can treat it this exact same way that we've been talking about, which is recognizing what it is. Not making it overly complicated, like more complicated than it already is, framing it properly, and most importantly, trying to get to a place where you can transition to the next stage, where you can keep moving forward. And I know we always talk about, you know, what can people do, you know, usually end with what can people do about this? But we've been doing this throughout the entire podcast, right? So. All right. So on on that note, until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel.