So it's not this authoritarian state always looking over your shoulder, but it's also because they've got this powerful tool of my hand. I'm not allowed to, you know, to either weaponize or abuse it. So I think trying to find that balance, right. That's basically responsibility because once again, giving a three year old a knife or giving a ten year old a phone like this, we have to teach them how to use it responsibly. And those kids in those situations don't inherently know how to use it responsibly. Is the parent's goal going to give the kid a tool, make sure it doesn't become a weapon? That's your responsibility as a parent. Hello and welcome to Awake at the Wheel. So in today's episode, we're going to be discussing the topic of children and social media and phones and electronics and a little bit in between all of that. So what sparked this topic is the fact that I recently read the book The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, and he talks about a profound and powerful shift that's taken place in childhood and adolescence, which can be pinpointed to just about 2011, which is when the advent of the smartphone, the iPhone with forward facing camera and social media posts and likes and so on, really gained popularity amongst young people. He stated that it has caused an absolute shift in the way that childhood happens and is conducted, and he gave some advice and some recommendations surrounding what parents can do. One of these main pieces of advice is that if possible, children should not have a cell phone or access to social media until age 16. So from a developmental perspective, while I can certainly recognize and understand where he's coming from with this in my own circle, this has sparked some conversation with friends of mine who have older children who grew up kind of in that 2011 onward stage with social media. Even with some of our colleagues that had some discussion surrounding it, as far as within the context of how it affects some of our younger clients. So and of course, as a parent myself, I have a 13 year old and am currently not on social media, but I know that the questions are going to start popping up soon. So what we're going to do today is look at some content that circulating online as far as professionals, opinions, parents, opinions about social media usage, phone usage. I think this is especially timely because here in Ontario they have actually banned cellphones in the classroom. We did an episode about this when it was first proposed. You can check that episode out and see our thoughts are surrounding that. But my hope is that with this cell phone ban, or at least reduction of cell phone usage in classrooms, it might achieve some of what Jonathan Haidt talks about in his book. So let's watch the first video and then have some conversation surrounding that. Understanding that if your kid is glued to their phone, that isn't necessarily an illness or they're not unsociable or whatever. That's the way the world is now. And as a parent or an institution, your job is to nurture that and also see it as an opportunity. You know, there are probably 70% of the jobs in our media business media chain, which no school in this land will ever, ever teach you a thing about. Because when the curriculum is written, all these platforms have changed, so the practitioner of it in their spare time is actually how they they're going to win a lot of these modern careers and these opportunities. Okay, here, that is who I thought it was. So he's the host of Diary of a CEO. That's one of my favorite podcasts. So I agree to an extent. I see what he's saying, but he doesn't approach the developmental inappropriateness of young kids having access to phones and screens in their face from a very young age. I learned this from the book that I was referencing, but I also knew this just, you know, from the work that we do that it does, in fact change the circuitry of the brain and the way in which they're interacting with the world around them. Things as simple as, you know, making eye contact and facial expressions, those things are fundamentally changed when kids have access at a very young age. So while I can recognize what he's saying that, you know, having that knowledge and that that that native ability to use technology robustly and fluently is great later on, I just don't think developmentally it's appropriate from an early age. Yeah. And you know, my wife and I caved. We gave our daughter a cell phone. I think she was maybe 13, maybe 12 or 13, probably 13 know, because, you know, everyone has one. And, you know, it's this it's their lifeline, you know, to their friend. And, you know, keeping track, you know, if they're going somewhere and so on. So there are some benefits. And I understand anyone who says it's almost impossible, if not impossible, to prevent them from, you know, having a 16 or until 16. Sorry. And so that's that's just one reality that's really, really difficult when everyone else seems to have it. You know, if we if he banned it, if you made illegal guns or something like that, maybe. But you know that that there's a lot of parents saying, but we don't want the state, you know, determining what we do with our children and so on. So anyway, point is really, really tricky. And as you're, you know, to your point is point, yes, kids need to be able to navigate the technology, but it's like saying, okay, if you're gonna learn, if you want to cook for yourself, you're gonna have to learn how to use a stove, a knife or whatever. You don't give a child a three year, you know, a three year old child, a big chopping, you know, like a cleaver or something like that. So, you know, we can't, you know, even though certain elements are necessary or beneficial, we can't deny or ignore all the unhealthy, the maladaptive elements of social media, which I'm sure you and I will discuss. So I think know, I didn't see the whole talk. You know, I'm not sure if there was more nuance before and after a little snippet. Okay. But that's in of itself, it just seems so, I don't know, like just narrowly focused and ignoring all the other problems associated with social media. Yeah, I love the point that you made, though, as far as like if you could teach a kid how to cook, you have to teach them proper knife safety and how to use a stove and things like that. And that's just not happening. When it comes to cell phone usage. And I'll tell you, I'd better my kid had a cell phone at nine because that's when he started walking home and we were able to track him. So he didn't have, you know, full access to the Internet or anything like that. But my point in bringing that up is that there are benefits that can come from it, such as, you know, more freedom, like he was able to go to the park on his own and things like that because I felt a little bit safer being able to track him. That said, as kids, our parents didn't that didn't have that ability. And it was go out and come home at dinnertime. I think that's a whole other conversation. But yeah, this the fact is, if we're going to take the approach that this individual is making in his talk there, we need to also have the discussion about teaching them how to use it responsibly and safely. Right. And it's not just at the beginning. It's ongoing monitoring, ongoing checking it ongoing, making sure that what happens with almost every kid these days, which we know for a fact, the stats, you know, I think Jonathan Haidt talks about this. Well, you know, when you're so focused on the phone, you're neglecting the physical aspects of life. Why do we think so many children are out of shape? You know, it's just it's it's part of who we are as a species, which, you know, we may not need to climb trees. We need we need to run away from, you know, tigers right now. And most of us. But there, you know, we're not completely sedentary. We do have these physical bodies and, you know, and we're seeing it's not just about being out of shape. We know that, you know, this cardiovascular disease, there's a whole bunch of other illnesses. Now, there are many causes, of course, is not just the lack of activity, but lack of activity. Is part of it not getting outside enough, you know, not getting enough Vitamin D, We know that we're talking about inflammation as well. There are so many negative side effects of of, you know, of these devices that, yes, you if you're given the if you're given these these tools, we've got to make sure that these tools don't inadvertently become a weapons against the kids. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Let's watch the next one. Give me a thumbs up. If you're tired of hearing people tell you to take your kid's phone away as punishment. Our teens want more control and by us taking their phone away, we're taking away their control, right? We're taking away their ability to communicate with people. And it sucks for them, right? And when you take it away, they just want it more. And my teen actually told me when we were doing screen time and just like whenever he did something bad, we put the screen time on. He actually was wanting to use it more because he wasn't sure of when we were going to take it away and when he would lose it. So it's actually kind of like an interesting look into like what he was thinking and the way to solve your problems is not to take the phone away. All right. Let's get real. Come up with some better solutions, some better ways to work with your team on how to get them to do something that you want. Okay. So respectfully, I don't know if this lady is a parent or some sort of professional or what, but that's parenting, right? Like, I don't know what else to say, as far as you know. Yeah. Your kid doesn't like it. Yeah, it sucks for your kid when you take their phone away, but that's parenting. Our job is to do things that are difficult. And sometimes that means consequences for actions. And sometimes that means those consequences come in the currency that is most important to them, which is their phone. So I recognize what she's saying because, you know, as in that previous video and as we've spoken about before, that is their main lifeline to communicate with their friends and with their their peers and so on and so forth. So you're not just punishing them by taking away their access to, you know, to looking at content, but it's also their communication. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, it's tricky. So a few things. I always tell parents not to take away kids phones. Okay? Only because and I said this from about seven or eight years ago, I remember I remember saying this one family, okay, it's almost seven years ago and so it wasn't even as bad as it is now, like where it's so ubiquitous and that they're so reliant on it. But even back then, because I knew the research with adults podcast where just take the action of taking away the phone can lead to panic, it can lead to anxiety, it can lead to like so many negative consequences. So what I say is, if you're going to take away the phone, A, it should be relatively short term B issue or should be periods of time. C the kids should have other ways to access their friends or something like that. Like just so you know, even if it's to tell them, hey, I'm going to be offline for like whatever, if you just suddenly take it away in the midst of things like, you know, I think as you've done controlled manner because again, we have as parents, we need to establish guidelines, structure, discipline and consequences and so on. We need that. But it's got to be done in a way that it's not just so overwhelming to the child that, you know, again, because the message is lost when they're going into panic mode. So. Right. If you feel that you have to take it away, there have to be, you know, these other factors taken into consideration because otherwise, again, it's just too overwhelming. That lesson lost. At the end of that video. She says, okay, parents, let's figure out a different way to do this. So I mentioned that and this is something I when I work with parents, I often say like, what is the currency that is most important to your kid? And that's not to like, be threatening or manipulative or anything, but oftentimes that's what's going to send, you know, the clear message is if you do X and Y is going to happen. But I agree with you that if if they're in if this punishment is inducing panic from a brain perspective, message isn't going to get through because they're just going to be so overwhelmed with anxiety and panic that it's it's counterintuitive and counterproductive. But I really like the suggestion that you had there as far as giving them an alternate method of communicating with their friends, because the punishment isn't you can't talk to your friends. The punishment is, you know, the phone itself and perhaps the misuse of that. So. Right. And and again, just so parents recognize, I mean, look, most parents who would ground, you know, in the old days grounded their kid. Right. I have always been against that. Only because to me, you know, the social element of childhood is so important. Right. And so for a child to feel that they are excluded, you know, like I've always said, try to find another way. So I'm always more about instead of taking things away from the kid, it's how can the kid make my life better? I think we've talked about this before. Well, say, yeah, you know, you've got to do certain chores or whatever. That's, you know, that's your punishment if you want to go to this party, whatever else, if that. Sure. But you know, and you know, we talked for a different ways you can do that some more that's say manipulative than others. What you know anyway I won't get into that which I'm talking another podcast but the point is that you know this this social connectivity, you know, in the old days was important enough, right, in meeting up with friends or hanging out or whatever. But now, again, since social connectivity is through the phone itself, again, when you take it away just like that, it suddenly feels and, you know, older people may have a hard time imagining this, but to a kid or to a teen where, you know, the brain's not fully formed, that's their entire universe. It's like, you know, it's like just jettisoning them out into space or shooting out into space where they feel like they have no connection to anything or anybody. Obviously, it's irrational. Obviously it's a distortion. But that's, you know, more likely than ever before with the average kid, that type of distortion. And once again, we want them to be able to understand the message and the idea of being accountable. Actions have consequences and so on. You know, that has to be able to be done in a way that once again, the message is not obscured by the, you know, the reaction to the punishment. And not to mention that one of the main premises of the book that I was discussing earlier is that one of the biggest problems that has arisen from social media is social isolation. So it would be so counterproductive and counterintuitive to take away the method with which they're communicating with one another and further isolating the kid. Right. Exactly. So, yeah, it's it's it is tricky. But again, it's it's even like what we talked about, like if you're going to give the kid the tool right, the phone, then you have to make sure that they're, you know, that's a well equipped to handle it, that they understand that, you know, that you're monitoring and so on. So if you're going to do it, it requires a lot of effort on the parents part. For a lot of parents, you know, the phone is just like, you know, it's like the TV, the babysitter. Right. It's just it's an easy way out and so on. So same with punishment. If you're going to do a punishment, is it harder to enact these punishments? Is it harder to try to, you know, get kids off the phone or to understand what you're trying to communicate so on probably is harder than before? Yes, it is. But as a parent, our job is to adapt and we need to be able to adapt to these realities. And if we're going to engage in any of these behaviors, whether it's giving a phone, whether it's taking away, whether setting guidelines, whatever it is, we have to put in more effort than before. But if we only half ass it, we're not going to get the, you know, the outcome that we want. Yeah. So a conversation that I've had with other parents and I've even seen on social media is some kind of split opinions in terms of monitoring kids and teens usage online. So my stance on it is I don't think that it's healthy for any party involved to obsessively read through one's kid's messages and interactions and so on. That's that's not healthy, that's not respectful to the teen. But I think that the knowledge that, you know, mom or dad or your guardian can look at what you're doing at any given time. So be very mindful and careful about what you're doing. Perhaps it's a healthier approach and is going to set some of those guardrails. Yeah, that's again, that's another tricky thing. How do you do it right? But I think what you just described that I think has enough nuance baked into it that that, you know, it can be done wrong so many different ways, but it can be done right. And yeah, this is tricky because, you know, as a teen, if I knew my mom was listening in or could listen in or something like that, all my conversations, I'd be mortified and I don't know if I would benefit. You know, I try to think about that like I'm trying as a teen, if, you know, everything was monitored. But this idea that, you know, again, there is a hierarchy in society, there's a higher hierarchy in the family, right? Just because you have this such powerful tool doesn't make you omnipotent. So this idea that there is the risk of oversight or, you know, that that we have as parents, we have the right to make sure that you're not, you know, transgressing these expectations and so on for some of that's communicated. So it's not this authoritarian state always looking over your shoulder, but it's also because they've got this powerful tool of my hand. I'm not allowed to, you know, to either weaponize or abuse it. So I think trying to find that balance, right. That's basically responsibility because once again, giving a three year old a knife or giving a ten year old a phone like this, we have to teach them how to use it responsibly. And those kids in those situations don't inherently know how to use it responsibly. Is the parent's goal going to give the kid a tool, make sure it doesn't become a weapon? That's your responsibility as a parent. Yeah. And as you're saying, like when we were teens, I remember we talked on the landline, so I guess there always was the threat of my parents picking up the other end and listening to what I was saying. I'd probably be able to tell. But I think, you know, in our version of of that, that's what it looked like. So also along the same lines, Snapchat is one of the apps that teens and kids tend to use a lot. And I was looking at their website and the way that they promote it to parents, like there's this whole informational video about it to Parents night. I think it's a load of crap, but tell me your thoughts. They promoted as Snapchat exists the same way that face to face conversations do. There's no record of what you say to someone face to face. And Snapchat's the same way. So they send messages back and forth. It disappears from my perspective that I don't think it's the same thing. And I think that it's can be very problematic because, you know, Lord only knows what they're doing. Sending, saying what's being saved screenshot and held against kids and teens. I don't know. What are your thoughts? Yeah, it's really tricky because yeah, any you know anything that is transmitted electronically as the risk of being saved as you say, and it can be used against the kid. It's so terrifying. I know with my daughters, I told them so many times they say you don't trust anybody, you know, even not even just bad pictures, for example, even like gossip about somebody. You know, you think that your friends should talk to you. One of the one of these friends. Well, and if you respond, you never know how that's going to be used against you kind of thing. Right. So I like the idea of not having a permanent record. And with Snapchat, if you tried to screenshot or whatever, it will detect it. Although someone else with a phone could always, you know, take a picture, a picture or wait around that, Right. Yeah. So the idea of of, you know, trying to make sure that kids words aren't used against them, I like that because again, it's just too easy. And I've seen way too many cases and we've seen it sitting in the news of kids lives being ruined, you know, because some malevolent teen or someone else. So I like that idea. But if it gives us a false sense of security and again, and someone's acting with impunity, they think, I can't say that because, yeah, it's just like it's like telling your best friend something and, you know, you're miked up and the whole world hears you don't expect like, great. So once again, it's it's the technology. It can be beneficial, but it can also be so dangerous and so harmful. So and kids have to know a and this is the problem. I'm seeing. If it gives kids a false sense of maturity, it gives kids a false sense of, let's say, self agency, because they can do all these things with the phone. They can, you know, search the web, they can contact people, they can send pictures, they can do all these things. So they think, hey, I've got to figure it out. But you don't. Because again, all these consequences that maybe a little child or teens brain hill adults brains don't conceptualize this so many times. And again, once it's out there, it gets so many things to be done with it and everything. So I really do think that kids need to understand. It's like it's like putting a kid in the car, okay, If you if a kid's used to driving VR and there is a crash and whatever else, like then they put them in the car and they operate the same way. It's going to be chaos. Like they have to have this reverence for this vehicle, for this again. Once again, it could be a tool, it can be a weapon. And I don't think kids, no matter how much we try to say this, you know, I don't think they have enough, you know, fear, reverence, understanding, you know, for for what they're dealing with because it is so accessible. It's so easy to use like literally chimps. You know, we've got videos of chimps doing this. They figured this out. So again, it's just so basically the harms of potential harms are hidden almost in its utility, in its ease of use and we don't recognize again, once again, that this could be a ticking time bomb. So, you know, this idea, this oversight, whatever else like that. Going back to the original theme here, I think anything that we said, I don't want kids to feel, my God, someone's always watching. But I also want kids to understand that, you know, there would be a reason that, you know, that there should be some oversight, that this is again, that this can be very destructive, you know, in so many different ways. And again, once again, kids are not getting that sense. Yeah, it's like someone who sues, you know, sharks in aquariums and they think if they jump in a swimming pool with sharks, wouldn't that be cool? Like, you know, it's okay, I can throw a bunch of these different metaphors, but I hope the points are getting across Again. I mean, it seems so simple, so easy, so user friendly can also be dangerous. Yeah. For sure. Okay, let's watch the next one Should you take away your child's foul ball games as punishment? I'm a child therapist specializing in technology, and this is a common mistake I see parents making. Imagine the scenario type. Pam. Child still hasn't done the homework. They said they would do what they have been doing sitting on their phone and playing games so as punishment for not doing the homework. Take the phone away because obviously the phone is the problem, right? Well, phone isn't just a phone. Like it or not, your child's phone is now their connection to their friends, to what's happening in school afterwards. If you take away your child's phone, you are essentially isolating them as punishment, instead trying to have a conversation with your child about why they haven't done their homework. Conversation includes you asking questions and listening, not lecturing or persuading them. Show understanding. Homework is boring and it's not as fun as games. Another helpful piece of advice is to have a conversation with your child about why homework is important for them. Again, not telling them why homework is important, but asking them why they think it's important. What do they want to do when they grow old? Do they think you have to work hard to be the best astronaut or YouTuber? Does the person they look up to just do fun things all the time, But do they think they also have to do some boring things in order to be successful? Questions like this can help you understand their motivations. Only then can you guide them towards their goals. What do you want your child to be Self-motivated. Rely on? Punishment to force them to work hard. Love to hear comments. Pull them below. she brought up some of the same points as I so rehash those, but I do think there's a little bit of over simplification with some of the things that she said. I agree with her that having an ongoing conversation with your kids and developing that degree of self-motivation is really important. But something that I don't think was addressed across any of the three is the reality of the fact that some kids are in fact addicted to their phones. And I know that this is a controversial thing as far as is it addiction in the same way that substance addiction takes place, I think there is some evidence that supports some of the circuitry in the brain is responding the same way, especially in the same way as to gambling, which we know can be a real addiction. So while a conversation is important, well, developing the skills of self-motivation are important. I also think that it's very important to be mindful and aware of what is normative use for their age and for their developmental stage and what looks more like an addiction or problematic usage. Yeah, it is really tricky. And ask 100 people what would you consider problematic or addictive or compulsory usage and you get 20 to 50 different answers, right? It's so hard to know. And the last person who's going to know is the person who's doing it. So we can't rely on the, you know, the child or teen to self-report, Right. Whether it's intentional or unintentional, we're self serving. So if I sit here and said, you know, like how how long do you use the phone today, if they use it for 12 hours, they're going to say 6 hours or something like that or 4 hours or something. Right? Is it a problem? Did you not do things you're supposed to do? No, I did it. Yeah. They might have half assed it just long enough to signal back the phone or whatever. Right. So. So yeah, it's mystery word here. I agree with most of what she said. Like, like for all the reasons that we mentioned. Right. And I did like the fact where she said about I think she was saying like, you know, if you want to be, let's say an astronaut, you have to work hard, whatever you do. When it was both like the YouTubers, I think that was I think I caught that point that she was saying, which is, yeah, whether you're an astronaut or an influencer, they work damn hard. It didn't just happen, right? That was really, really hard. So I like that idea of trying to connect it to something that, you know, they can relate to, even if it's playing video games, the ones who you know, or the best of Fortnite or what have you, right? They played hours upon hours upon hours. They really they put a lot of effort into it. So, you know, this idea of it's not just smarts, it's not just passion, it's effort, it's consistency. It's persistence. Right. That's what has to be communicated. The only issue, though, is to a child. If that's what you tell them right, then they'll say, okay, well, I'll just double my Fortnite time and I can become a, you know, a superstar as well, which and by the way, I've done this with, you know, with older teens and adults, whether it's video games, whether it's online gambling, whatever it is, I say to them, if you're just doing it as a habit or a hobby, you know, that's one thing. But, you know, I do it as well. I play VR. Everyone who knows vehicles, I do a lot of I love to play VR, right? It's a hobby, but I limit my time. So if it's just for a hobby and just for fun or socialization or whatever else like that, then you have to, you know, limit the time. If it's too much. Time is no longer that. Now it's become something. It's not a once again the person inside of it in doing it, they're the last person to see it. So sort of sort of trying to balance all of that with the child and letting them know that and seeing to it like a five or eight year old child. Yeah. You know, being doing Minecraft or roadblocks, whatever, becoming an expert could make you a superstar. But but I mean, that's what they're going to want to do because more fun you have to be very careful with the messaging that you're trying to like. You know, you have to think three steps ahead of your teen or your kid so that they don't grab what you say, turn it around, and then use it to justify addictive behavior. Like I said, again, the easiest won't be. Yes. If you're telling me if I have to work hard to become an influencer, which I want to become, you know, then I'm going to just yeah, I'll devote 20 hours a day to my social media channel. Right. You know, then then, then it means bringing another angle, which is also good percentages. There's a lot of kids go down to your local basketball court. There's some kids who are great basketball players. They can kick everyone you know, They ask everyone on the court, They're amazing. And we look at all those kids, what percentage of them are going to actually get into the NBA, for example? Like you try to use that example with your kids. I do. Those say that to my I said that to my daughter as well, from the youngest of ages. I said, don't think that you're going to be like those people. It's possible, but the odds are so tiny. Let's go on a safer bet. Let's going to this more secure. If you want to do that on the side and then you start seeing that is becoming a possibility, maybe we'll do it more. None of them did, thankfully. But again, this is trying to bring nuance into this discussion that is really hard. You and I, we know it's hard enough to have nuanced discussions with adults, let alone with a kid who's processing things differently. So, you know, I'm not I'm not giving any great pointers. I'm just saying that when people see these kinds of videos, they just have to be mindful that on paper it may look great, but in practice is going to be much harder to execute. Yeah, and I also like the point she made about the astronaut in the YouTuber that they also had to do things that are very boring, right? So I liked the nuance again of, you know, not only is it a lot of hard work and a lot of hours, but they had to do stuff they don't want to do either. So I like the framing of that. But I think that and I said this somewhat earlier as well, our job as parents hasn't really changed. When you look at like the high level tasks of parenting, right? The way in which we have to do it and the things that we have to take charge of are certainly different. But, you know, it's still our job to set guidelines, guardrails, limits, actions, expectations and so on and so forth and say, no, I think that's one that people have fallen away from quite a bit. So reminding ourselves as parents that our job has remained the same, I think simplifies things a little bit. But yes. And and and everything you said about the guardrails and structure and so on like that is so important because as you and I have talked about before, in essence, our ultimate job is to make kids an independent function that can independently functioning member of society. And and again, even explaining that to the child, I said to my kids all the time, that's my job, right? So if you know, if you're gaining a skill, let us at Fortnite. GREENE Go back to that, that only one in 100,000 are going to be able to parlay into an actual career. Well, you might be really good at the game, but this is not what's going to allow you to become independent. So, you know, I've told it to my kids. I said, like, you know, you need to find a career, you find aptitudes, you need to like and so on, and you need to persist in those in order to be able to live independently. I'm not going to support you forever. I'll support you. I'll help you get to where you need to go. But. Right. And that's where the parents as well can kind of bring the difference in once again, there's all these YouTubers, whatever else. But for every successful YouTuber, right, how many unsuccessful ones are there? And again, if you're going to spend the next ten years of your life banking on this one path that has such a low likelihood of success, well, that's not a smart plan, right? So helping the kids see what is more realistic, what's more feasible, and kids need that because, again, that's part of the guardrails. Kids don't know that. Kids think, you know, all young kids think they're going to be a hockey player or an astronaut or a famous singer, whatever. They don't know better. They're kids. So, yes, you're absolutely right. The parents job is to help kids see reality show when they're looking through fantasy. You know. So a question that I'm often asked by parents, both in my professional and personal life, is like, okay, so how how young is too young? Back to the book by Jonathan Haidt. He he said 16. If you can delay cell phone usage and social media usage until 16, then great. But realistically speaking, I don't think that that's feasible. The world that we live in is such that, you know, kids at younger and younger ages are gaining access to phones and social media. But in my opinion, I would say, you know, delay it as much as you can. 16 is a great goal, certainly not realistic, but I would say at least into late elementary school. But some of these kids at six, seven, eight, nine on social media, I think is is way, way too young because their brains just they're not even close to being able to process everything that they're taking in and all of the negative messaging and all of the terrible influences is focus on body image and like the list goes on and on and on. I know everyone's very aware of what the problems are in that respect, but at that young age, their brains are not ready, not even close to ready to be exposed to that. And we've talked about that in numerous podcasts that, yes, the messaging that kids are getting at a younger and younger age, it's bad enough for adults. Teenagers forget about it then kids like its say they can't process it. And so this becomes reality. And as you and I have talked about the messaging, mostly the body image issue, the FOMO, fear of missing out, right. Not being as good as the what we call the upward social comparison, which we've talked about before. Right. Thinking that everybody else has this lifestyle or has these traits or these whatever, that you don't have that's even more isolating. It feels like I'm the only one. And again, an adult can know intellectually. I know it's not true, but it still feels that way. And that feeling can still be very disruptive for a child. They don't even know that it's not true. So they got the feeling, they've got the belief, they got everything. And that's going to make the again, it is that isolation or feeling not good enough, not measuring up. And if you constantly feel you're not measuring up right to everybody else, then it's going to make you feel more inhibited. You're going to have less self esteem, less ability to advocate for yourself, the self-efficacy, all of these things. So I knew we were only talking about some of the, you know, certain elements. But this other element that you were mentioning, that's the whole other side, which we've talked about in previous podcasts. But yes, parents have to understand that. So goes back once again if you have to if you feel you have to give kids a cell phone, you got, you know, do what you can to limit their access to whatever is there, they'll still find ways around. But don't just give up. Try your best. And again, being in constant, constant discussions with them. And that's a problem, as I alluded to earlier, with parents, when they give the phone. Okay, So many of them, again, they're not recognizing I'm giving what could be a terrible weapon that can destroy my child. Right. And their sense of self and so on. Instead, it's like, okay, it's a distraction. Let them play with it. I've got so many things that I can do on the phone and so on. Right? You're going to get this. It's your responsibility as the parent to, you know, to monitor and make sure and have those discussions constantly. Again, I'm constantly will be I always say in my daughters roll their eyes, whatever. But I keep saying so I keep reminding, you know, you know, what you're seeing there, That's not real. You know, this is garbage. You know, this is harmful. I constantly say that to them because again, because I'm exposing them to I'm sorry, giving them the ability to expose themselves to this messaging, I want to make sure that I'm putting the parental lens in there as well. Yeah. And I'll elaborate a bit too on my age recommendation. It's it's not arbitrary and yes, it's a brain thing, but it's also a puberty thing, right? We've talked before in other contexts about, you know, how hard it is for kids to go through puberty as it is in and of itself. It's a confusing, challenging time where kids are trying to develop their self efficacy, their self image and all of that. But then add in the bombardment of fake messages and fake images and fake representations of people's lifestyles. It can really, really complicate an already complicated time of their lives. Definitely give. So as far as what parents can do, I think we've spoken about that kind of throughout this episode. But, you know, just to to summarize, be very mindful of the guardrails that you're putting into place, speaking with your child about the the power of the tool that they are going to be utilizing. And also recognizing that it can be useful and helpful. Right? The Internet's not all bad. There are certainly great things that they can learn and do and and grow from, but they have to do so responsibly. And it's our job as parents to teach them how to do so responsibly. Right. And so on that note, until next time parents, especially keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel.