the first thing you have to do is just accept that life is good and bad, Like it's okay if you're not happy every second of the day. It's okay if you're having sadness or grief or a client's angry at you or you make a mistake. Like that's all human, and that's our human experience. And I think we tend to forget that. And we think that we're always supposed to have it easy and smooth, and it's all supposed to be good. Hello and welcome to Awake at the Wheel. So in today's episode, we are joined by Dr. Julie Cappel! Julie is an author, life coach, podcaster, speaker, as well as a veterinarian with a diverse range of experiences. She is a small animal, avian and exotic veterinarian as well as a successful businesswoman. In addition to a devoted wife and a loving mother of two adult children. So, Julie, welcome. Thank you so much. I'm so thrilled to be here. We're excited to have you. And it sounds like based on that introduction, we've got a lot in common. So I'm excited to see where our conversation goes today. That's excellent. I think it's going to be really fun. I've listened to some of your podcasts and I've really enjoyed them. Awesome. Well, to begin with, let's talk a little bit about how you made the connection or transition in or I guess you're doing both as far as veterinary medicine to life coaching. Well, I, I owned a veterinary hospital for over 20 years, have been a veterinarian for 35 now. And about eight or ten years ago, I started to think that I needed a new challenge. Because after running the same business for 20 years, you've kind of solved all the problems a million times. And and I'm the kind of person that likes change and I like to kind of challenge myself. So I was looking for the next thing, whether I was going to sell my practice by a second practice, you know, exactly what I wanted to do. And so I started searching a little bit about that same time my nephew took his own life. And so that was a little bit of a wake up call for me to start looking at all of the other negative things I've been hearing in Vet Mad because that Med was getting kind of this reputation of being one of those careers that is very stressful and there was a lot of talk about the suicide rates going up in our profession. And so as I was searching for what I wanted to do next, I thought, well, what could I take? All my loves, my leadership. I love self-development, self-help. I've always been kind of a self-help junkie. I kind of always thought psychiatry and psychology were super interesting, but I really didn't want to go back to school for all those years to get those degrees. So I stumbled across life coaching. I started to investigate it and I just thought it was the perfect thing for me because it took all the skills that I already had with my business coaching my employees and I was kind of that kind of person anyway. And could I develop that into something that would serve the profession? Because I love veterinary medicine so much and I just was disturbed by the negativity that was out there. You know, all the all the social media sites. People were complaining about it and how horrible the clients were and how hard of a job we have. And and all those things are true. But I thought there were there had to be a way to make it better so people could manage their mind better. And I when I discovered life coaching, I was like, that is the key to everything. So I think that there's yeah, there's similarities. And I think across health care, whether with animals or with humans, but that negativity and just the pressure can be a really difficult combination to manage. Yeah, it absolutely is. And you know, and then on top of that with vet Med, the people that are getting out of school more recently than I did and even when I did, they've got huge student loan debt and their student loan debt to starting salary ratios are really you know they're really far apart. And so there's all this pressure and a lot of veterinarians are women now more so than ever before. And then they also have that pressure of how am I going to raise a family? How am I going to pay back my student loans, how am I going to run a household and be a veterinarian with all the pressures? And so that's kind of what I decided as my second life mission is to help people deal with that, be happier and really get back to loving, loving what they do because I love it so much. So it sounds like there there's some element of your personal experience inspired you to look and see if others in your field are experiencing the same thing and find a way to help them. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Because I had all those challenges being a hospital owner, being a mother, I owned the whole hospital on my own. I really didn't know what I was doing when I bought it. I kind of had to learn by trial and error. And, you know, there are a lot of tools out there now, more so than when I started because of the Internet. But I really do think that it's a double edged sword because there's so much positivity, but there's also a lot of negativity that people pick up on. And so I want to offer them a different way of thinking about it. And there's ways to be successful in that mad love your life, raise kids, you know, not without problems, not without stress, not without, you know, mistakes. But but it's possible. And if you love what you do, you can stay in this profession and continue to do it and have have everything that you want. So without giving away your your secret sauce, per se, what are some of those strategies that you teach people? I think the first thing that I learned when I was doing life coaching that I really kind of blew my mind because I hadn't really heard the concept before. Isn't that the first thing you have to do is just accept that life is good and bad, Like it's okay if you're not happy every second of the day. It's okay if you're having sadness or grief or a client's angry at you or you make a mistake. Like that's all human, and that's our human experience. And I think we tend to forget that. And we think that we're always supposed to have it easy and smooth, and it's all supposed to be good. And because we have that negativity bias, we always focus in on all those negative. But then there's also positives. So one of the life coaches that I was learning from, she would say life is 5050. And even though that's not necessarily true, I thought it was an interesting way to think about it. So when you're having a good day, it's like, 50% good, and then the next day might not be so good. Okay, well, that's to be expected because life is supposed to be that way. And I think as children, we're taught that you're if you're not happy and things aren't perfect, that something's wrong with you or something's wrong with your life. And that was something that really like put a light bulb over my head because I'm an optimistic person by nature. And so for me, I was like, okay, I just would kind of trudge through and push through. But I think that just teaching that concept that, okay, this is the way it's supposed to be, you have 20 great clients per day and you might have one bad one, but that's okay. And you know, that's not something you need to focus on. You can focus on the 20 that were kind to you. So that was one of the things that I learned that I really try to impart on my clients. And then the other thing is, is that it's all under your control, though. Your happiness, your life, your the way you look at things, it's all under your control. And that primitive brain that we have that's so powerful and we all are taught about that, we don't realize that that's just the protection mechanism that we have, and it's trying to make us, you know, keep us safe and keep us in the cave and all the things that people say and I call it the Chihuahua brain because it reminds me of a little scared dog that's trying to bite at everybody because it doesn't know what's going to happen. But just that part of your brain is still under your control. And so I try to teach them that, you know, if if they can accept their feelings, feel their feelings, and then work on their thoughts about all of that, that they can indeed change their life, not their circumstances, but their life, which is it's a it's a really cool concept. It is. And it doesn't necessarily come easy, but it's doable and it's possible. And, you know, whether you get help with a coach or a therapist or a friend, you know, someone can help you through it if it's difficult for you. But but it's all available and it's all possible. Yeah, it's and it's all about reframing and using those tools and challenging our thoughts. But I want to zero in a bit more on something that you mentioned earlier and a couple of things that I want to connect. So you mentioned that sometimes, you know, there are difficult clients and I imagine in your line of work, those difficult clients may come from being upset or scared or angry about what's happening to their their pet and in some cases their best friend. So I imagine because Sean and I have experienced this with our clients, grief is probably a big thing that veterinarians and those working in your clinics and hospitals have to learn how to cope with, deal with and guide people through. When we work with clients oftentimes and I'll I'll speak for myself, but I know Orin has experienced this too, that a lot of clients will preface, you know, their sadness in their grief and just the profound ness of that sadness if I know it's just an animal. But I think that it's, you know, unless somebody has a pet, sometimes they don't understand that degree of sadness. So a brief story that I'll share. I have two senior ragdoll cats. I have one that's 14, one that's 15. They're like my babies, one in particular. So the one that's 15 when he was just about ten years old, had an attack of acute kidney disease, and we thought we were going to lose him. And even telling this story just makes me sad to think about it because I know that because that three, the profound level of sadness that I felt with the prospect of possibly losing my little baby Gadsby was it was like nothing I had experienced. And I, I will preface to it, it almost feels silly saying that out loud because he's just a cat. But again, that that level of sadness is so much to to deal with and to manage. Unfortunately, I'll say that the veterinary hospital that we went to, I don't know if they were equipped to to guide clients through that, but I guess my question and my point in telling that story is what are some things that you recommend to people working in your line of work as far as helping guide clients through that? Well, I think the first thing is just realizing how how that bond is so strong. And in most cases it's stronger than with any of your relatives. Like my dogs are here in the room with me right now. My kids one's in Dallas, one's in California. You know, they're far away. And those pets are with me every minute of every day. And so I think the first thing for veterinarians and most of us know this and we realize this because we have our own pets, is how important those relationships are and that that grief of losing a pet or having a pet ill is is pretty much the same as a human. Not necessarily. If you lose your child or your parent, you know, there's different levels of grief, but but it's grief. And so I think just knowing that, you know, we all experience grief differently, you know, there's the stages of grief where people get angry. And so a lot of times we get that part of it. You know, they're angry at us because we can't fix their pet. And so just being open to that emotion and not taking it on. And the hardest thing about being in that situation with clients is they go through all those stages of grief but in different orders. So you just really never know what you're going to get. Some people are very accepting right from the beginning. Some people are very angry, some people are just in denial. And so just trying to meet them where they are, be open to all the emotion, not necessarily to take it on. It doesn't have to be my grief, but I can understand it and empathize with it and help them work through it in whatever way I can. And so I think euthanasia and you know, tragic illness and pets is one of the hardest things we deal with it with. But I think it's also one of the best things we deal with because it's such a skill that nobody else has, you know, unless maybe you're a hospice nurse or, you know, some doctors, I suppose a lot of doctors have to go through this. But ours is a daily thing. And pets have such a short lifespan that, you know, we're with the same clients. I have some clients that I've been through three or four sets of pets now, you know, their first couple of dogs pass, they get to more or their cats and then the next two and, you know, and we've been through this many times before. So I think being able to show empathy, understand the stages of grief so you can help them work through them and accept accept all of them, even the anger, and then just not taking that emotion on as your own, which is the hardest part, right? If somebody is angry at me thinking that it's it's me when it really isn't, it's they're angry at the situation. They're angry at, you know, sometimes that the grief is even grief of loss of income because it's expensive to take care of their pet, grief of control. You know, they don't have any control over their finances. And now this pet comes up with a $10,000 problem that they they can't afford and then they have to euthanize. You know, those are things that we deal with. And and they're very difficult. But I think on some level, I feel privileged when I do that. If I can help someone navigate that process and get to the other side and really letting them experience the grief and not pooh poohing it, it's not just a cat, it's not just a dog. You know, I did a lot of bird medicine or I still do. And and people are just as attached to birds and lizards and rabbits and, you know, any pet that they have, there's a special bond. So I think understanding that bond is so important for us. Yeah. And Oren, I know you had a monkey as a pet sometime ago, so. How fun is What kind of monkey? A capuchin. Retail. Capuchin. Really? How fun. Yeah. How long did you have that for? I was pretty young, so I'm going to say it was less than a year. We just weren't well equipped to handle a monkey. I don't think. Anybody is well equipped to handle a monkey. I don't think anyone should have a monkey as well. I think unless you have ample space and resources and we just we didn't have that right. Yeah. So, you know, my parents were hippies and it was legal a lot. Yeah, and I do. Yeah. And the interesting thing was there was someone maybe within a five minute radius from us who also had a monkey. So she was better equipped to shoot a bunch of exotic animals. Did you know she actually did not. We had to find we found someone who had, you know, kind of had the resources, like a formal. Sanctuary or something. Yes, exactly. Yeah, That's. Awesome. Yeah. So you and your monkey. As it was or were they attached? Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Emotionally, Yes. You know, I was because I was younger. And our sister, we adopted my sister shortly afterwards was about maybe seven years old at the time. So I mean attached but not as attached. Let's say for example, as you know, we've had Myriad animals since then and before. So we bond a closer bond with other dogs and cats that we had them for longer. And just because we you know, she was a monkey, we weren't well equipped, so we didn't get the time to be able to physically bond with her as much because she was just kept in a small space and freaked out with a bunch of humans. So, unfortunately, you know, that's the part where I think a lot of people, once they do, they experience it. They understand that that physical touch. I mean, that's what is so soothing, just, you know, having this, you know, this this this animal, this creature, this being that loves you unconditionally and just Yeah, and just physical. So, yeah, that was what was perhaps lacking with it with our monkey. Right? Yeah. Pets are just it's such a it's such a different bond. But I think and until you have one and you and you experience that, it's hard to imagine how attached you get. You know? And so can I ask you, because you're talking about, you know, how stressful and, you know, it can take a toll on one's wellbeing. And so, I mean, I know and first of all, having, you know, brought a number of animals to veterinary clinics and hospitals and, you know, different getting different levels of quality of care and so on. One thing I'm sure that you get and you alluded to it earlier, that maybe the biggest complaint or one of the biggest complaints is the cost. You know, costs seem like where's these numbers come from? They seem inflated, like how can you just want you know, but you're the only business in town or the game in town, so we're forced to. So when people like sometimes people probably do directly something maybe passive, aggressively, how do you deal with that? Not just internally, but in dealing with a client who does have these complaints, How do you manage them? Well, it's difficult because we understand it, right? Like my dog last year had a problem where I had to take him to a specialist and he had surgery and it was quite expensive. And my husband questioned me like, Why are you spending this money on this dog? And the answer was because I can you know, I have it, I can spend it, but some people don't. And so that's that's always one of those those dilemmas. But I think explaining it to clients, the the finances of it is difficult because they want to compare it to human medicine where they have high levels of insurance coverage. And in veterinary medicine, we don't there there is animal insurance that you can buy for your pets, but most people don't have it. And so our prices are the prices. So when you go to the hospital or to the E.R. or whatever, if you're there for one day, it's probably going to be a, you know, 20 or $30,000 bill. But we don't see that because our insurance pays it in vet mad. It could be several thousand. And it sounds like a lot of money, but there is a ton of overhead when you're running a veterinary hospital, you have to have all the machinery. You know, x ray machines are 30 to $40000. Ultrasound machines, all the equipment, highly trained professionals. A lot of the people that work in emergency medicine are higher trained to them, the general practitioners and even the general practitioners, you know, spend 200 or $300,000 to get through school. You also have your license, veterinary technicians that have to be paid, your receptionists, you know, there's tons of overhead that most people don't understand unless they run a business. And so that's the first thing. And end explaining that to a client is difficult for you to say, Look, all these people I have to pay and the lights and the you know, they really don't understand it. But that's one thing that I think would be helpful. And then the other thing is, is putting that value on the pet. Like they don't always see that they adopted this pet and spent 150 bucks to adopt it, this cat or whatever, or they found it on the street. But now they have to pay money to have it spayed or neutered. And, you know, those are major surgeries that we do exactly like somebody in the human profession would do with all the things, all the monitors, the gas anesthetic and like all the things that they don't see. So the hardest part is getting the clients to understand where those costs come from. And then the second would be if they're struggling, is trying to counsel them through now the stages of grief, because now you're grieving if you can't afford something for your pet. And I think that's where the anger comes from. You know, when I explained to my client, my veterinary clients, like these clients aren't angry at you. They're angry at the situation that they're in. They adopted this cat. They really don't have extra income sitting around for their pets or they didn't they didn't anticipate it, so they didn't save up or whatever. And now you're telling them that they're going to owe you several thousand dollars and a day or two after their pet has surgery or whatever, and they're just not prepared. They're not prepared for the emergency. And so they go into those stages of grief. You know, they they deny, how can it be that much? Blah, blah, blah. They get angry, they start bargaining. Can you do it cheaper? Don't you love animals? You know, that's the one we hate the most. If if you loved animals, you would do it for free, You know, all those things. And so we have to be really strong and just stand up for our profession and know that there's help out there for there's humane societies, there's rescue groups. There's I work on the Michigan Animal Health Foundation Board, which offers grants to people to help with their pets finances. And so there's resources out there for people, but they just want to turn it all back on us. And that's one of the most difficult things we do, is is dealing with those kind of emotions. But if you can just go along with them and understand, you know, I under when my dog had to have surgery and they gave me the bill, I was like, whoa, I didn't anticipate that. But then I had to decide, okay, do I want this dog or do I not want this dog? Like those are my choices and then trying to counsel them even through that, you know, going from a I can't afford this to maybe it's better to do. Euthanasia is really a tough road, but you can get good at it as a veterinarian. You can work through all those emotions with people and get them to the right decision for them. You know, it's their it's their pet, it's their decision. It's their pocketbook. And that's where we have to go. We can't judge. Also, when you're answering one of Melanie's earlier questions, you were touching upon a lot of the, let's say, what I consider tenets of good mental health and of therapy or counseling. And, you know, you talk about control and you know, you talk about happiness. I focus more in fulfillment. I say happiness follows. And what you're describing having a fulfilling career and so on. Right. And Mally mentioned reframing as well. Well, one other part that kind of ties the things together. Our way is tied together, and I'm a big fan of that as metaphors, and I try to pick metaphors that kind of connect to the client or patient for you coming from the world of, you know, of medicine and of animals, do you find yourself using certain metaphors, like themes of metaphors? So probably so. I can't think of one off the top of my head. Maybe you can if you're good at this. I use a lot of personal stories to try to relate to clients because I've been through lots of pet situations since I've had lots of pets metaphors. I don't know. I can't think of one off the top of my head. That's a really good question. Can you think of one that would apply. To and. What we're talking about. From let's go to what. I know. I'm like I'm sure I'm sure I use them all the time, but to come up with one right off the top of my head, I can't. so I apologize for that. That's a that's a tough question that I didn't really think about, and I'm sure I will. Right. Okay. Sometimes people have a. Yeah, they just there's themes that kind of, you know, constitute sort of the framework of the work they do. And I mean, I do talk about, like I mentioned earlier, about like unconditional love, where I do, I'll always talk about like having certain pets, especially a dog, where, you know, I kind of when even I say I say, you know, this whole idea of unconditional love, I say, you know, it's great in theory, but in practice, even Carl Rogers, who had who coined unconditional positive, regardless that even in this book, he says it doesn't exist in humans, doesn't truly exist, only exists in animals. For example, like people, I always see everyone kind of or most people connect to it. They get that. Yeah, yeah, it's really true. It's true because as annoying as your pets are, you don't stop loving them. But I, you know, I feel the same about my kids and they have their moments too, you know, where I'm like, this is like being a mom is hard, but it's very similar. I, I think when you said unconditional love, it just kind of reminded me of something that I've talked about before to some of my my veterinarians is, you know, if you think of that and that those those clients have with their pet and you can try to open yourself up to that love as well, that's going to make it easier for you. Like you're going to understand how they're feeling and put yourself in their shoes. It's going to be much easier for you to not take on all of their drama and emotion because you get it like I've been there, you get it so that unconditional love, peace, I think is is so interesting and important, you know? So I worry about the I can't think of a metaphor. And it just so you know, I. Want to get on my feet with Mr.. So I did think of one, by the way that I use, but it's more just it's an animal based metaphor. But there's this great video on I forget the woman's name, She's she swim with sharks and there's an amazing video of her and she's swimming and she's looking at one shark in front of her and there's another shark behind her that she doesn't see till the last minute. And then she turns around and she's able to put her hand on its nose and kind of elevate above it and just gently and calmly. And I use that with patients that I get. I, I find the video and I say to them, I go, When you're not dealing with this material in the back of your mind, this unconscious material, these things that you're suppressing or repressing, I say it can just come and get you whatever I say. So, you know, having the courage to be able to turn around, you know, to face what you're dealing with and then to control it. Like that's how you exercise control and doing that with equanimity and so on. So anyway, so that's just one of the metaphors you use that involve animals. It's a great video. I love that. I think I've seen that video, actually. It's a really good one. Yeah, the one that just popped into my head that I heard from someone else. I stole this one. But it's like when you're dealing with all these emotions and you don't accept them and just embrace them, that it's like taking a beach ball and trying to push it underwater. Like the harder you push them down, the harder they come back. So if you're dealing with anxiety or imposter syndrome or all that and you just keep pushing it away rather than accepting it and dealing with it and getting help or whatever you need to do, that it just gets harder and harder the longer you try to do that. So I thought that was a good one, but I didn't make that one up, right? I stole that. Okay. So I think a similarity in our professions is the experience of compassion fatigue. And, you know, it's like your profession. We're dealing with all of those types of emotions with our clients and even with those that we work with. And I supervise and manage a team of therapists. So we're continually giving them coaching and feedback and tools and strategies to manage, like everything that we take on as therapists. Yeah, So compassion fatigue, what does that look like in your profession and what are the tools that veterinarians can use for that? Well, compassion fatigue. In our profession, it's pretty prevalent because of the fact that it's such a regular part of our day. You know, if you're a medical doctor and you don't deal with dying patients every day, it's probably a one off like one of your patients dies. Our patients, because of the euthanasia situation that we're in, it's sometimes a daily occurrence or sometimes even three or four times a day. You know, on a bad day, you might go through three or four euthanasia. And so that constant empathy that you have to pour out is, I think, what causes the compassion fatigue and also the taking on of the emotion. Like I talked to another coach friend of mine and she talks about if clients want to give you their emotion that you need to leave it on the exam room table, like picture it like that. They're offering you their grief. They're offering you their anger in a box, and you can either take it and keep it, or you can set it down and walk away. And I like that visual because it helps me kind of take all of that compassion that's turning into fatigue because that's that's all it is. It's just we're over giving and try to put a stop to it or protect yourself from it. And then I talk a lot to my clients about mindfulness and staying in the moment and not constantly trying to regurgitate the things that happened before or the things that might happen next. Because if you can stay in the moment, I think it really does help you let go of the the compassion fatigue or that the fatigue. And then the other thing is getting help. You know, like I've been coached, I've been in therapy. Other people have been coached. You know, I try to encourage people that that is something that as a professional, that deals with this level of drama and trauma, that we deal with it. In order to keep the compassion fatigue away, you have to actively do something. You can't just sit there and expect it all to be okay because your brain absorbs it. Your brain, you know, it starts to turn into anxiety and burnout and, you know, and compassion fatigue is the word that we use. But it it's all of those things. And so you really have to understand that it's there. Learn about yourself. How do you how can you deal with it and then go from there. So as a result, are you finding that people are leaving the profession earlier? Like is the level of resilience and that the buffer that they have to deal with all that not as strong as perhaps in the past? Absolutely. 100%. That's why I'm doing what I'm doing because I love this profession so much and it gave me a beautiful life. And I've always been very enthusiastic about it. And one of the reasons I started life coaching is because of that, because people aren't handling it as well as they used to. And I don't know why that is. I don't know if it's generational the way we were raised. I mean, I have some inkling that that might be part of it. It's harder now because there's more to learn, there's more to know, there's more drugs. You know, the people that are are younger. I'm getting out of school now, have much more to learn than I had to learn back then. But yeah, absolutely. It's it's definitely gotten worse. And I'm trying to help people stay in in whatever capacity, you know, don't have to be a full time that there's so many options in that med that you can do to fit your personality. But absolutely, definitely they're leaving the profession and and it's going to be a tragedy at some point because people like you that have pets need us. And now that I'm not in my hospital as much, I need veterinarians. You know, I need veterinary specialists when my dogs get sick and it's something I can't handle, like we're so needed and I'm I'm afraid for our profession that it's going to crumble because of what's happening. And but I'm optimistic, too, because people like me are getting in and trying to help and the corporations that run veterinary hospitals are learning about all these things and trying to help. And they're kind of changing the way we deliver veterinary medicine, which is better for vets, maybe not for clients in a lot of ways, but so yeah, absolutely. It's a problem. Yeah. And again, I ask you, just because Melanie and I talk about this quite a bit in different contexts, but what would you say if you can maybe the number one or top two or three traits or beliefs or perspectives of, let's say, new veterinarians coming in, that makes them let's say, let's adaptive, less resilient and so on. What are what are you noticing? My the thing that I noticed most is most veterinarians are introverted and I'm an extrovert, but many of us are introverted. That's difficult because our job has takes a lot of extroversion. We're constantly on. It's like it's almost like acting. They're very perfectionistic type people. So the perfectionism is difficult because you can't be perfect in this job. You're going to make a mistake. A case isn't going to go the way you thought it would. A drug is not going to work like there's a lot of failure and we have a huge fear of failure. So perfectionism and maybe just that expectation that it's supposed to be different, that clients aren't supposed to be demanding, that clients aren't supposed to show anger. You know, we I think if we expect humans to act like humans, life is so much easier because then when someone comes in angry, you can be like, of course I'm going to have an angry person today that's part of life and can I get good at dealing with these angry people? You know, I feel like over the years I got really good at dealing with angry people. And so now I kind of like it. I like the confrontation when other vets say, I hate confrontation. I say, I just tell them, you can get good at that. It's a skill. And it's not that you want to fight, it's you want to get good at talking to them so you can resolve whatever the issue is. And once you get to resolution, then conflict is kind of fun. And so but those are the main things I see. It's just that expectation that people are always going to be okay and that things are always going to go well, that's a problem. And then a big one is the financial problems that we have. You know, that's stressful to a lot of a lot of people right now is is thinking that they can't make enough money to pay off their student loans and buy a house and raise kids. And, you know, and I'm not going to say it's it's easy. It would be easier if if you went to law school probably to make a lot of money. But there are a lot of very wealthy veterinarians. So it's not it's not something that's unattainable. So along those same lines, what advice would you give to young people who are maybe considering a career in veterinary medicine, especially with all the changes that you've described that are taking place in the field? I think I think the biggest thing is to get a realistic view of what we do every day. When I was younger in high school, I went and worked for a veterinarian, one of the few women that owned a practice, and she was really good to me. But I worked there all my summers, all my vacations and really got a good idea of what it is that she did and what what a normal day was like. I think that's super important. I think the other thing is just understanding yourself really, really well. Like if you know you're an introvert and this is an extroverted profession, then you have to set yourself up for success by planning in that regenerative time for your introvert self. You know, even me as an extrovert, when I come home from work, I'm like, don't talk to me. You know, my husband will start talking and I'll be like, you know, just give me like a 30 minutes because I've been extroverted all day. So just knowing that about yourself I think is really important. So I would tell people that realistic view, getting to know yourself and then maybe getting some of these tools under your belt before you even get there, you know, understand why you want this. Do you have a strong why? And if you have a strong why, it's going to be so much easier to persevere when it gets tough? Because it's going to get tough. And that's just life. Right? And you've chosen a hard profession, but just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not valuable. Like it's so rewarding. Like I wrote a book last year and many of the things in my book are stories and they're so touching things that happened to me and what people think of you and situations that I was in, that I was able to provide great care or, you know, just really get to know people and understand them and I think just understanding that that's part of it as well. So you're prepared for all of it, the good, the bad and the ugly. And and then don't be afraid to get help, you know, don't think that there's something wrong with you. Everybody has it. You know, people ask me, how do you how did you get so stable? I'm like, I still have anxiety. I still get stressed out. I still have you know, you still have imposter syndrome. Some days it's just it's part of your normal Chihuahua brain, as I call it. And and that's okay. It's just that now you have to learn how to deal with it and, you know, be like, okay, well, one day you're a little anxious and that's okay. Yeah. You know. And you make such a great point about focusing on the good aspects and holding on to those those gems, I guess. And the same is true of our profession too that there aren't as many positives as negatives because nobody's coming to see us just like you on a good day per say. Right? But back to my cat. It ended up being a great outcome. We have such a great relationship with our veterinarian because we were taking my poor kitty in twice a week for his subcutaneous fluids, So we got pretty close to that and you get. Very close and you get to know them and you know they're about their kids and you know, that's that's one of the most fun things about it, is getting the clients and their family and their pets because their pets are unique. Yeah. And they and that's the thing is that they know our cat and they know his his quirks and his needs and so on. And he's always happy and healthy now. So. Well, congratulations. That's amazing. And that's great. Yes. And that's the point of my story. They said the worst thing turned into something great and positive. Well, and we don't always hear that. And that's another thing I remind them, you know, we hear the bad things because people will come to you when they're angry and they don't always come to you when they're happy. Yeah, but you'll hear about it at some point later, they'll come back and they'll say, you know, the best thing you ever did was put my dog to sleep or whatever, you know, and you'll be like, Whoa, Really? Yeah. You were so good and so awesome. And now I have a new puppy and I'm bringing them back to you. And that's the joy of it. Yeah. So in this podcast, something that we do at the near the end of every episode is look at what can people do with all this information because we've thrown so much out there, we've talked about the good, the bad, we've talked about your life coaching experience as well as your veterinary experience. But if you were to provide our listeners with a takeaway here, what is something that people can do to promote their wellness, working in the health care profession or, you know, promote joy and fulfillment with being pet owners, what would you say? Well, I think to the pet owners first, I would say realize what your veterinarian is going through and maybe cut them a little slack at times if you can, because you don't know when they come in to see your puppy, what they've done. The other part of the day, you don't know if they've lost a patient on the you know, on the operating table. You don't know if they've been in the euthanasia just just to be understanding that they're also humans and they don't have all the power to fix everything. So that would be one thing to the veterinarians and the people that work in vet mad would just to understand how valuable you are to humanity like this is a really, really important job that we do. And I think sometimes we don't feel that way because of either the financial we were treated because, you know, our prices are so much lower than human medicine, but we're basically the exact same thing or just the way people think of us. They think of us sometimes some clients, not all think of us as like auto mechanics. We bring you bring the pet in, we fix it, you go home and it's and it's like guaranteed that it's going to work and they're going to be fine. And, you know, some people have that opinion. And so just realizing that how valuable we are and that you can have a beautiful doing this job, you may have to put in a little work on yourself getting help or getting coaching or therapy in order to stay healthy. Because, you know, as therapists and I know as a coach now that you also take on those emotions of the people that you're coaching or doing therapy for. And so then you have to take care of yourself as well in whatever way it is. Mindfulness, exercise, yoga, good eating, hydration and coaching therapy, all the things you have to make that a priority as well. Absolutely. Or in any last thoughts or questions? Well, just want to one, you do have the metaphor that you mentioned a couple of times, I should mention, not the sight of that, the Chihuahua brain. So you do as well. The brain thing. It just occurred to me one time I was making up a slide presentation and I saw this picture of this like terrified Chihuahua. And we and that's what we experience with some dogs. You know, they just they're just screaming and freaking out before you even touch them because they're so terrified. And that's what it reminds me of. Okay. And then and the second one, he started saying it toward the end and I'm out. And you mentioned as well the idea of and again, it's going away sort of from fun and more from rewarding like your job is a lot of non fun things, but there's a lot of rewarding. And as you said, even if someone comes in angry, agitated, whatever, if you're able to contain the help, diffuse the situation, that may not be fun for everybody, but it's certainly rewarding, fulfilling in the mornings that comes into fulfillment. So I think it's really important for people to know for any career, especially why am I doing this? Why have I got into this? Right? What about me? Makes me think I'm well-suited or what am I going to get from this? And, you know, just being honest with yourself and, you know, some people maybe aren't out for certain of work, so you have to have a confidence in you. Yeah, you need to know what you're getting into. You have to be really realistic. And so I think it's really important for anybody before you into any field, do your research. Are you really well suited? Are you going to be able to make it through? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. What what is it about? What can you find in this profession or any profession for that matter, that gives you your life purpose and is there is rewarding and and there's just so many things you can do. You don't have to be a veterinarian. I just happen to think it's the best. So I want to I want to encourage people that wanted to be veterinarians and actually did become veterinarians or work in the animal field to enjoy it and get the most out of it. So where can people find you work? And our listeners find your podcast, your book. Well, my podcast is called the Veterinary Life Coach Podcast, so you can find it all the places. And I do some interviews and some on my own, and it's mostly about having a better life. I have a website, it's the Veterinary Life Coach SI.com or Julie Capell dot com. Either one will get you there and you can email me at a couple dbm and gmail.com and Google and I'll pop up and reach out. I love to hear from people of all professions, not just veterinarians, but yeah. Wonderful. Okay. Well, Julie, thank you so much for being with us today. I think you've shared really valuable information. Yeah, it's been really, really a fun conversation. I appreciate it so much. Great. Okay. And on that note, until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands on the wheel.