Hello and welcome to a week at the We Are So in many of our episodes we've talked about all different types of relationships. You've talked about the parenting relationship, marital relationships and everything in between. One thing, however, that we haven't touched on is the importance of the relationships that come from friendships and specifically friendships in adulthood is something that I notice comes up often in therapy sessions and something that a lot of people are unsure of how to navigate, especially after 30, 40, 50. It seems to get increasingly difficult and friendships tend to become even more scarce. Though interesting because I think that as kids right from preschool, we're taught how to share and be kind and all the fundamental basic things about friendships and then even in adolescence, we know developmentally speaking, it's one of the most important tasks, not only because it teaches us social connection, but it also teaches us how to problem solve, develop social skills and other different important things as we get into adulthood. Friendships are of equal importance but tend to the interfered with, with the demands of life like kids and families and aging parents and all kinds of things such as that. But oddly enough, it's those things that necessitate the need for close friendships. So we're going to spend a little bit of time talking about those look like how they evolve and what people can do to help to foster those. So or in what are some of your experiences maybe with clients and patients with regard to friendships and friendships in adulthood in particular? Well, there are a couple of, let's say, types of unhealthy friendship dynamics that I see a lot of, and it's so I'm going to try not to single out any groups, but people will hear this and go, yeah, that's definitely, you know, that that applies to our community or our group and so on. So especially if there are friendships that were, let's say, fostered at a young age, maybe you all went to a certain type of, let's say school, not just the school itself, but whether it's like it's a special religious school or a cultural school or or after school or on the weekends, you did like language, you know, some kind of language thing from your native, your parents, like native tongue or something. Right. So and then these groups, they might, you know, have like a camp that they go to each summer or something like that. Anyway, so from a young age, these kids are really integrated tightly beyond your normal school because it's a community, right? It's an actual community and just a school, you know, and peers, because your parents are involved, they all know each other. So those friendships that started at that youngish, youngish age. All right. And then continued. So I deal with a lot of people, whether they're in their adolescent years or later, where they're like, I'm with these people now who if we had our own druthers, we wouldn't be friends. Okay. But a lot of people, they don't say that they can't articulate that they were it's this is what it is. This is just person you've known since you were a little child. You know, you've been to their birthdays or the celebration and so on. Right. So it's an artifice, really created friendship group. And like I said, if they were truly if they had their choice at this at this age, they wouldn't have, you know, being with them. But now they're stuck with them. So that's one particular type of dynamic that it becomes. It's just it's toxic because you see this it's a bit of a mind effort because these people also knew them in certain stages of their life. And this person might have been a loser when, you know, he was ten. But now at 25 or 30, he's killing it. And so, you know, but but when I was ten, I was the head of the group, and and I'm trying to exert my influence. Yeah, right. So it can be really challenging when you've got to get through all these different stages and yet you're still again, artificially stuck together. So that's just one thing I want to throw out there that we can build on other relationships, but that that's that's one I've seen very commonly. Yeah. And as soon as you started talking about that, I'm like, Yeah, you know what? That's probably one of the biggest struggles that I find people have when it comes to dealing with the dynamics of adult relationships, is this whole notion of, well, we've been friends for so long, therefore it feels like there's this obligation to maintain it long term, even though the dynamic is like what you described, people are holding on to old stuff from childhood or values have changed interest, if you name it, there's all kinds of things. We as humans change and evolve and grow. I would hope we're not the same person that we were when we were ten, but there is a strong guilt that comes along with what we've been friends for so long. Therefore, I feel like we have to write. And there's also there can be family connections as well, the community connections. So yeah, so being able to, I've helped I think a lot of people see it from a different perspective and I say, Look, there's nothing wrong. You're not you're not betraying them. You're not saying they're terrible people. You you're just you've grown apart. And normally you would have drifted apart. But again, you're contained because of all these structures in place that prevent you from drifting apart. So I help them. You're right. The guilt part is big, and I help them to be able to like we see. So for some people it's like we have to actually put a stop to it. We have to say something. The most uncomfortable conversation is trying to say something. Hey, you know what? I'm sorry, but, you know, I trying to find a nice way to be able to see that we're just not compatible anymore. All right? Or you're toxic or something like that. Whereas in most case, like I say, that's the worst discussion. But I say, look, for in most cases, if you kind of just sort of let things drift apart, you kind of slowly lose contact with them, you know, no hard feelings. Usually they might think, I wonder what happened to so and so and so. Then more then the guilt is more about that's like a totally internal that's your own neurosis, right? Because you haven't done anything that's objectively bad or that other people can hold you to account for. It's just simply that's how you feel. And so, you know, then we explore. Why do you feel this way? Yeah, yeah. So there's a few different directions that I want to go in here. And for some reason this popped into my mind. So let's just go here. So I think that for introverts and extroverts, I mean, these are key parts of our personality and don't really change much over the life span. But I think as kids and teens were in school and, you know, it's just natural that we interact with people. But I think that adult friendships for introverts is especially difficult. But as I say that I think it would probably be difficult for extroverts, maybe even more so, because they do have that need to be around people and recharge. And yet they're still dealing with those challenges that I mentioned before that interfere with adult friendships. So I think that being really aware of what recharges you. So if you're an introvert, I guess I should clarify to people many times people assume that an introvert is someone who doesn't like people. Not at all. It's just somebody who spends energy by being around others, whereas extroverts gain energy from being around others. And I think with this, this high level of loneliness that people are experiencing, I think that's where the introverts probably are suffering more. Yeah, So that really depends. And by the way, I'm glad that you mentioned like the difference being the interests of the extroverts, like, you know, whether it takes out, take something out of you or re-energized you. That's how I also distinguish between I tell people that because some people say, well, I am really good at my job, I can be very sociable and everything. I'm an extrovert, right? And but they go to one dinner and if they have to go somewhere afterwards, they're just exhausted after that dinner. So. Right. So neurologically, biologically, physiologically, they may not be an actual extrovert. They may have learned to be extroverted. But and we know for over 50 years, we know that the the internal systems, the nervous systems of introverts and extroverts are quite different, which is why these different situations have different impacts on them. So I think it's so important you write for people at the very beginning to at least step back and go, Am I an introvert or an extrovert or a mixture of both? I mean, very few people are purely one or the other. So I would tell people, I always tell people, just think of it like it's a meter for both how higher you you can be both high on both, low on both, you know. Right as far as anyway. So the point being, even though physiologically you might be wired a certain way, these attributes, these traits and so on, you know, that develop over life, they get, they get the they worked into the mix. So in any event, so recognizing which one is more of you because when you say about the introverts, the loneliness epidemic, the epidemic can really be, you know, hard on them. But I also know many introverts who they're perfectly fine because they're introverted, like they have that one or two people that they need in their life. And whether they see them face to face or whether it's through texting or whatever, that truly does seem to satisfy their interpersonal need or they get their interpersonal needs met. Other ways, whether it's through work, depending on the kind of work they do and so on. Right. So there's so I don't want to make it too blanket, you know, because and I've said this to a lot of parents as well when they say, my, I'm really worried because my, you know, my child's always at home and they're, you know, they're doing whatever at home. And I want them to socialize. I get that for sure. But don't project your own needs onto them. They may be perfectly fine. It's, you know, in being alone and they're not lonely. Right? So that's where people have to really decide. Being alone does not equate with necessarily being lonely. And conversely, there are many people who have so many people around them, but they always feel alone because they don't connect on a deep level with people who they feel really get them. So again, I'm just trying to work on these different factors. When people are thinking about what can I do about this? Look at these different things beyond just a simple, you know, how many people are in my life or how often do I see them? And I think that's where social media really trips people out, because I think we've spoken about in other episodes, many other episodes that we are superficially more connected than ever before in any time ever. And yet there is this loneliness epidemic. So I think that, yeah, first and foremost, knowing where you get your energy from, I think it's important too, because like that example that you provide where somebody, you know, we'll go out to dinner and they're completely drained, that might be confusing to some people of like, do do I hate people? Am I not good at socializing my, you know, fill in the blank. So kind of having a good understanding of No, that's just me draining my energy. I think that is really important in understanding like what works for someone and what doesn't. Right. And as social animals, like I read this so long ago and I'm assuming it's still true because our brains haven't changed that much over the last couple of years. But the study showed that to not feel lonely or alone, you only need one person in your life who you feel has your back, even if they don't have your back. If you think they do, this positive illusion is very like, That's all that you need is that one person. Now, for some people, psychologically, it may not feel enough. And and that's why I always I when I work with people, I say, okay, let's question what is the reality? How are you interpreting it? How is having an impact on you? Okay, but I tell them, I say, technically speaking, if you felt that you're that one person that's technically all that you need and everything above that is gravy. So people should understand that. And and if you feel that you don't even have that one person, let's look at that, because that is I mean, that's the definition of being alone. If you really feel that I don't even have one person I can really count on when you know when I need them, right? Yeah. So there's two controversial questions that I find come up often in therapy sessions with regard to friendships and perhaps you've come across as well. So I want to talk about these and see what you think surrounding them. So the less controversial of the two is can colleagues be friends? I think that that's a difficult one. It depends on the context of your work. It depends on the position that you're in. Depends on, I think, where you're at in life. There's so many different factors. Like what? I look at my current position. No, it wouldn't be terribly appropriate for me to be friends with my entire staff. But when I look at some of my closest friends that I currently have, their colleagues from my previous job, But again, the context there was different than the context now. But what are your thoughts around that? Yeah, it's I think certainly it is an important question and I don't get that question, but I do get the theme of someone saying like the reason that work is so let's say unrewarding to them or unsatisfying is that they aren't feeling that, you know, that interpersonal connection with their colleagues. There may be a thousand people in the building and they just don't feel like that they connect with anybody. So to me, that's the big issue. So do I think colleagues can be friends again, depending on the nature and so on, 100%? You know, can family be business partners or can friends be business? Right. That's another question that's a little different. But if you meet in an industry in, you know, in a professional organization or capacity, can you take that outside? I think, you know, my blanket statement is yes, for sure. But then we have to look at all those different factors that could make it difficult and blurred lines, because I've seen this happen and I think everyone has either had it happen or knows that someone has had to happen where the lines do get blurred. So then at work, you know, you're thinking, you know, my boss is my friend so I can get away with certain things. Even I think it consciously by just naturally or organically, they think that, they'll cut me some slack. And then that puts the boss in a really tough situation who has to come down like things like that. So these are the factors that people should take into consideration by am telling you that they've had so many people really they almost get despondent when it's like all this water around me and nothing to drink, right? Because they just can't connect with the people at work. And what makes it even worse is when they see other groups, there's clicks, there's you know, there's the people who know each other at the water cooler and they're all like, you know, and here's the thing that I've told. I think we've talked I know we've talked about this before. I think it was in the capacity, but I'll use it in this capacity, which is I don't care how old we get, high school pupils. If you watch people, you know, whether it's the government, whether it's at school, you know, professional organization or whatever. Okay. At university it's high school. And I've told so many patients that I see it through the lens of high school. And you can usually now there are exceptions, you know, life events happen that make somebody more empathetic or more responsible or a better person or something like that. That does happen. But by and large, when you look at the interpersonal dynamics, when you see either small group or a large group, when you see males with males or females and males or whatever, the case is right. The way that the person was in the past, it usually dictates to a large degree how they are today. Again, understand there's a lot of intervening factors because some people are terrible high school. They really found, you know, found their their pacing when they hit 20 years old like that. And now they're much different. But anyway, you know, anyway, the point being I tell people that you have to treat it like that because a lot of people have a hard time thinking that way because they're wondering, I am at work, why do I feel excluded? Why is that? When I say, well, again, this happened in high school as well. So you have to think, how am I going to either make allegiances right? How do I ingratiate myself in a way that doesn't make me feel like I'm being obsequious and then going is my values like, how can I do that? And I say it doesn't happen organically. Same with high school. When you're thrown in high school, you don't organically start, you know, some people like if you're if you're all athletes, maybe, okay, But for the most part you have to work at it or, you know, if you're in high school, these are people you know, there are people from junior high school or elementary school that you knew before. So that was kind of imposed. Like you had a leg up. But when you go into a work setting, you don't have that. In some cases you might have a few, but for the most part you don't, right? So I say you got to put a lot of effort into that. And I know you had to like the two questions, but I want to add one more thing that might be relevant to the second one as well, which is in so many cases, rare is the time actually when someone's telling me like they're saying, you know, I had all these friends, whether it was from university or high school or, you know, as adults. And, you know, they're saying, well, I know person A and B, I know they get together in person, you know, C and D and E, and F they get together. But I'm feeling like I'm not part of any of those groups as a big group. Sure, we see each other once every six months or a year, But I know all these people get together, you know, you know, here they're like two people or three people or whatever. And in every single case, rare is the time when they have an answer. The same question, which is this where I say I say, how often do you reach out to them? In so many cases, people have to admit that. No, I really don't. I didn't really try to, you know, keep nurture that relationship and keep it going. And I say to all that, How about those other people? Yeah, of course, they're always contacting each other. Well, but they already have. The French started somewhere. So I say to people, I say, whether it's in high school, university or as an adult later on, I say there are only a few people who never have to reach out to anybody. They're the life of the party. They're the person that everyone goes to, that the person ever wants to be around. Everyone reaches out to them. They never have to call. Okay, I see. But that's rare. I say you have to put that energy in. And then, of course, people are well, you know, they're afraid of rejection. They're afraid of, you know, well, what if the two of us get together and it's an awkward conversation or I don't like and I get all that? But looking at the reality of it and seeing how can I remedy it is far better than just sitting there miserable, saying, why don't they call me? Why isn't my relationship stronger? So those kind of questions are literally irrelevant, you know, or sorry, they're relevant if you actually are asking that. We try to find an answer, asking rhetorically, You're just complaining. So I tell people you got to put the effort in. And that said, a complaint that I hear mainly for, you know, you know, it's from males and females is they're the one that's always reaching out. Right. So that's something to to really be aware of, too, is that it's got to be a two way street. No, don't keep a tally. It doesn't have to be 5050 per se, but there should be the appearance of a somewhat equal effort on both parts. And if there isn't, then maybe there's other discussion to be had or like you suggested before, see if the friendship sustains or fizzles out and not to play games by any means, but it is a two way street for sure, especially when we're adults and busy and everybody has their own life going on. But if that support for one another is important, it should be maintained by both parties. And yeah, go ahead. Well, I agree to some degree or I agree mostly. But as you're saying, because there's other factors involved, if one person is single and the other person has kids, right, the single person has much more ability to reach out and the person with the kids, they may not be thinking, I want to reach out to the single person or the person without the kids and so on. So so I say I agree what you're saying, like there should be it should be reciprocal, I say, but circumstances sometimes mean or it can even be personality. Some people, they're just like, like again, I know people. I'm one of these people. For example, I am not necessarily going to reach out to a bunch of people to go out and help with them. But if someone reaches out to me, it's like, Hey, why not? I'll do it right? Sometimes people just need that. So I always tell people is if you're finding that you're 95 or 100% of the time reaching out and they're never reaching out, I say, how are they responding if it's always, Well, sure, yes, yes, yes. But they're always putting you off and you're never actually meeting. That's one thing if you meet them and they seem so disconnected and they don't really want to be there, that's a message. But if every time they see you and it's like, yes, this is great and everything I tell them, I don't think there's so much of a problem. If you're the one who's always reaching out, it's only if they're giving the impression either directly or subtly, that this is a burden and has to be I say subtly, it has to actually be there has to be some sign. You can't just interpret that. You can't mind read, which a lot of people do. That's what it is. If I'm always reaching out, it must be that I'm the burden. No, there's so many other factors. Hey, try it out. And if you get good evidence that you are, you know, be seen as a burden is on, then you have to reevaluate. So you want to throw it out there. Sorry. Yeah. So on the topic of colleagues being friends, a lot of questions that I get from clients too as well. How do you make friends in adulthood and how do you make friends at work? And one of the pieces of guidance that I often give is because you mentioned that that awkwardness that can sometimes occur, asking other people questions about themselves is usually one of the best ways to get a conversation going. And I think we can learn a lot from that too. If there's no reciprocity, then that's potentially a red flag in a relationship or a friendship. But I find that that helps people the most is just ask people questions about themselves and, you know, not cross-examining them, but doing it in in a way to try to get to know them. Yeah, And I I'm in the process of finishing my book. That's one of the things that I say. I say you can go on to Google. I there's lots of questions as long as you don't do it either, as you say, as if you're cross-examining or interrogating them or if it's so artificial. And I've seen some people do that was like, it's cringe almost because it's like they it literally looks like they're going through a checklist of all these questions to ask. Okay, You know, you have to practice it. And I say watch interviews, watch people that, you know, are really good at it, you know, in a podcast or something like that. See how they ask questions? Look at their body language. Right. And I see that. And you're right. I always say the most most people, their favorite topic is themselves. So if you can ask the right questions and I say it doesn't take that much, just a few questions. You know, good questions can really keep the conversation going. And so, yeah, so I highly encourage I agree with you on that. And as you said, if it's always it's 100% about them and they never reciprocate or show interest in you, obviously that's not a healthy relationship, but it's a good start. Again, asking, asking, asking questions. But again, just reminding that it does take effort, especially starting the relationships, either again, colleagues or outside. And by the way, so I know you had the second question because I want to throw something else in as well. But again, I want to go to the second question before. So do you want to jump to the second question? Yeah. So second question, and this one tends to cause a lot of contention amongst couples, and I'll I'll be very clear here that I'm referring to heterosexual male female couples. Can men and women be friends with one another? So I want to hear what your thoughts are first. Okay. This should be a whole topic. Okay. It really should. And so we will revisit. I think we have to. So can they the can. And but in so many cases, there's it either it starts off with there's a little bit of a spark, a little bit of tension, a little bit of fun, you know, back and forth. It makes it risky or it can, you know, the familiarity, the emotional connection and so on can make people then imbue the relationship with more than, you know, than just platonic interest. So, yeah, it's it's risky. And I'm not I don't like, you know, general black and white statements so it if I look at every single example that I know okay like I know pretty well whether it's you know, again, personal life, professional life and so on, I would say it often often leads to problems. Doesn't have to, but in many cases it does. And I hate to say it because going to sound very superficial, but it's a reality. If one person is that's a very physically attractive and the other person is not, then the interest might be just one way. So it might just be unrequited interest or love. Okay. But so they may not go anywhere, but that feeling is going to be there. And that's where the problem is, where the person either is aware of their feelings toward the other person. Right. And and they feel uncomfortable, especially if that other person's talking about romantic interest. Right. And they have to sit there and try to be their friend and supportive while their hearts being torn apart or they are in denial and they they can't accept. I mean, part of them knows, but, you know, they don't allow themselves to accept that. Yeah, I really do like this person and they're lying to themselves. I'm happy to hear that they're, you know, doing so well with this new partner or something like that. And again, and it seeps into the relationship I have seen. So and again, whether I see it directly or I hear about it from patients or from friends is to me is so obvious that the person's inability to handle the fact that, you know, that this other person, that they are ostensibly friends, but they're not seeing them as a romantic interest or potential romantic interest, they can't accept and handle the fact that it is having an impact on them. And it does make the it does taint the relationship. Yeah. And it absolutely can be complicated. And I think that perhaps the answer might vary for single people versus people who are already in a relationship. And I'll state before I give my thoughts here that just I guess given my personality in key parts of my life, my best friends were males. So, you know, I think it is absolutely possible, but it could also potentially come with complications, just as you've described. But I think that the couples that I work with, they tend to take issue with it when their partner has a friend of the opposite sex who is just their friend. I think that's where the problems largely arise. If it's, you know, if if that individual is friends with both members of the couple or if the couple or two couples are friends and the four of them are having a good friendship amongst themselves, and then the individuals talk, I think that's healthy and okay. But I think largely what I've seen is the problem arises when somebody who is in a relationship has an exclusive individual friendship with somebody of the opposite sex. Yeah. And it is so tricky. And and again, I've seen this play out so many times and and I'll call people out. I'll say either look, from what you're telling me, look, I understand why your partner has a concern because of ABCD. You have you show them those text messages and you know things like that. So I say, So there may be something legitimately there, even if you haven't acted on it. Still, there's that underlying tension. And other times I've said like, no, I mean, from what you're telling me, it does sound purely platonic. Both of you understand that there's no there isn't a sexual interest for the two of you for whatever reason. Maybe you guys knew each other a long time. And, you know, you're almost like siblings, like there are Again, I never take a blanket approach to any of these things. I look at all these different factors, but I do say at the very least I say even if there's nothing there in reality, I say you have to always think of optics and the optics is so important. And and I say so understand that your partner, like even if you know that nothing is going on right again to your partner, it can feel almost insulting. It can feel almost like, you know, like you're spending more time with them or you to have more fun with them or other people see you around. That's what I mean by the optics. Even if nothing's actually happening and they're not in each of your heads and it's not crazy. That's the thing. When the person acts like what? Why would you even say that? That's ridiculous. That's what I tell them. And we've had these discussions about I don't believe humans are designed to be monogamous by nature. You know, there's no evidence for that. So it's not crazy for the partner to at least have some concerns. So the person who just outright dismisses it or you rudely dismiss it gets aggressive about it. How dare you impugn my character, etc., or that person is being, I think, very unrealistic, unfair and unreasonable. Right. And they should at least understand. But I see both sides. Like I say, if you're truly being if you are truly 100% pure in your intention, and so is this other person, there's literally nothing going on. I understand why you feel that way, but empathy dictates that you understand why your partner has these concerns, and it's your job to do everything to try to mitigate that, like trying to, you know, bring the person in, you know, so that they can get to know them better. And that which can be awkward because, you know, to, let's say, for example, to women, they, you know, they might not really like each other or two men might not like. So I get that it's difficult. But without that attempt, without that discussion, then how would you expect your partner not to think that something either is or could happen between the two of you? Exactly. And that's the the problem that arises in the clients that I work with who find themselves in this situation is they feel very excluded from any sort of discussion and their partner can then infer, well, I don't need your permission to to have so-and-so as a friend, but maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I think you kind of do when you're in a relationship or a marriage. I think that there has to be some level of approval from your partner of the people that you're spending your time with, whether it's somebody of the same or opposite sex some level. Yeah. And or and there has to be a problem. I see a good reason if they disapprove just because if it's a petty reason or something like that, I say no. Right. But yeah, if they have a legitimate reason. And that's the hardest part because and that's why having a therapist, for example, or a good friend who can be, who can mediate when they explain something from the other person's perspective, they are just opening the person's eyes to the other person's perspective. Whereas when it comes from the other person, it sounds like an attack or it sounds like they're trying to gain ground, that it's a zero sum game, that they're trying to push their agenda at the detriment of yours. It's very different when it comes from a third party, and especially one who gives both perspectives and shows how each of you have, you know, done something wrong in the way you've handled it. Yeah, absolutely. So you had another point. What was what were you thinking? What I was going to say was that many, many years ago, I can't remember. One of my patients told me, she said, I'm going out this Thursday. No, this Thursday night with this bunch of people, we're going to see a movie and then we have dinner afterwards and we talk about the movie. And I'm a movie buff. So I thought that is so cool. That's great. And I asked, you know, like, who these people are. And the way we saw it, the way she was describing it, the sound a bit odd didn't sound like normal friends. Like it sound like there was this meeting. It was planned, blah, blah. And so as a last question, I realized, she's the first person to introduce me. And it was in the early stages of this website called Meet up dot com. yes. And this was I forget how many years ago was I mean I say maybe 15. I could be off let's say ten or 15 years ago she told me about this and, and I checked it out is like, my gosh. So it's so basically you just you type in your postal code and you type in some keywords, like it could be movies, it could be hiking rock climbing, stamps, whatever it is. They meet up dot com any postal code and then it shows you all these different, let's say, privately organized events that are happening with that subject in mind. And so I say to people, it's amazing because now I've heard I looked recently with a patient and there were some events that were saying free, some were charged, others were free. And someone told me a while back, and maybe it was just what they were looking at, where they were saying that all these different events to go, you had to pay money. I was like, That's not what I saw before. Okay, so, you know, do your due diligence. I don't think it's everything I know. Some were charged, some said free. But basically the fact is it allows you to meet people who have the same interest. That's the thing. You're all there for the same reason you like movies. Now you're going. So I tell people, I say a couple of things. I say, Look, you can go to ten of them and maybe nine of them are people that you would never want to spend time in a room with. So I say, and I guarantee it's not a panacea to everything, but it is it's an option. And again, because you're going there, it's not it's not that awkward because you're going there with the same intention, We're going to do this or we're going to do that, right? So it's already set up number one. Number two, for a lot of people who don't have many friends, you know, or they can't really associate with them outside of work because that's just not the nature of the work or whatever the case is, I say. And they're looking for a love interest and they don't want to go doing online dating, right? So I say, you can do meetup.com, but you have to play the long game. Now, so many of my patients, when I tell them meetup.com, they're looking for all these single events. Okay, Glad they're doing it for that reason. And they say if you can find that, okay, go ahead and try it. I said, I said. But instead it's about, like I say, playing the long game. It's getting to know getting a new friend group because you're saying, how do you make friends in adulthood? Well, this is one way it's artificial because it's you know, it's done this way. But, you know, being at work that's artificial the way you didn't, you know, it's anyway, so I tell them, you know, think of it as I might not find my love interest in this group, but maybe if I go to all these different meet ups, I will find one or two people who I actually become friends with, and they're going to open the door to their friend groups. And so, you know, whether there's a love interest there or it's through another person or another person, whatever I say, it's just look at it with that perspective. Don't expect an immediate hit. Maybe not instant gratification, but you might find a few open doors that can lead to something and it can also be about job opportunities or, you know, other interests and everything like that. So meetup.com, I should invest in this site a long time ago cause I've referred so many people to it. But you know, and still to this day, many years later, some people don't know about it. So, yeah, I didn't know that that existed. And I love it for many reasons. So I think that's a it's a great idea just based on what you describe. But it's funny because my personal trainer, she is just a lovely human being. We hit it off like right away, like lots of laughs, Got lots of work done in our personal training sessions too. But she's a really like, high performing, tough, cool person who has a really hard time making friends. So I remember a few times she and I talked about friendships and a lot of the same things that we're talking about in this episode today. And we both joked and said, you know what? We should develop an app that's just like a dating app. It is for friends. So now I hear you say this and like, Well, shit, I guess I should have gotten on that because clearly it is needed and it's a great idea. But I think just like with dating apps, right, there's, there's going to be some good connection, some not so good connections. But I think with the way that the world is today, it's it's really a great way that you could potentially meet good friends who have similar interests because that's probably one of the best ways to meet people and meet people who are going to have a connection with is, you know, doing things that are of interest to you, because chances are somebody who has that shared interests will be there as well, whether it's an art show or an art class or cooking class or you name it, what everyone's interest is, I think that's the best place to meet people. So, yeah, I guess with adult friendships, there's there's a lot of things that people can do, one of which, like I said, going to events or classes or activities that you're interested in and in hopes that you can meet up with people who have those same interests. But as far as how else people can develop new friendships, there's not a lot of options, I suppose, for adults. And that I think, is in large part where the challenge comes from with not just maintaining friendships but developing new ones as time goes on. So what are some other things that you've experienced as far as clients and how they've made friends in adulthood? Well, it you know, it's one thing is I've really encouraged trying to make adult friendships just because as we talked about, sometimes you outgrow, you know, previous friendships. So I just want to really, you know, emphasize that, that it's not a bad thing because some people see that as a failure. Like what? I have to now farm out new people. Like that's that that's really difficult for them, too. It's like, well, no, it's just again, life gone the way it doesn't mean. Your failure doesn't mean that they're bad or whatever. It's just that's how life is. So as I was saying that that's something that people have to really overcome is that mindset as far as what they what they're doing. A lot of it is through, I feel like through physical activities, like they'll join a gym, rock climbing, rock climbing got really big a number of years ago. So many people go so that they were doing that. Okay. So they find that kind of activity. If they're living in a condo, they try to, you know, like they would try to find any communal events that were at the condo, you know, something very awkward. But, you know, that's it's a way to do it. I've recommended people, they say, you know, hang out at coffee shops like, you know, with that kind of busy or whatever. You always get become a regular if you can and sort of, you know, like little by little, don't push too hard. But that's where you might be able to meet someone. But the thing is, you said this earlier, and I tell everybody, I say, when you if you if you do this, always have some good questions at ready. Okay. One of my patients mentioned this one and he recommended the show to me based on this. He said when he meets people for questioning as it goes, what are some good shows you're watching? Because he wants to, you know, load it up and he wants me to do that. Right. So it's you know, it's not rocket science here. And but a lot of people, they can say this is something that they watch or they go, I don't watch TV. Okay. Well, what you do, you know, once again, come with good questions. That's why I say it doesn't matter where you are. Find a good question. And I would say to pair with that, have some good answers yourself. Right. So if you're asking like, where do you like to travel and have something with, you know, where you like to travel yourself and I guess as well some maybe reframing in adult friendships is important as well. It's kind of came to mind as we're talking with this, that the the developmental tasks of our thirties, forties and fifties are very different than they are in adolescents in their twenties and perhaps reframing friendships as not serving the same purposes as they do in those earlier stages. So, you know, in later life it, it could potentially just be more about entertainment and doing things together and having a fun time together with the understanding that one's partner or family or kids or whatever are where you get that deep connection. So it's okay if every friend that you have isn't somebody that you are like deeply, intimately connected with. It can just be for fun to. And that's really, really important. And that's why I said, you just need one person you feel really, really has your back. And if anyone else is at the end, it's just someone that you hang out with or you know, because I've had some people say, my God, they're just so much, they don't know how to turn it off. I say, Okay, then you make sure that you're only with them in certain contexts. They don't have to be that person that you, you know, confide in so on. But again, going back to what they just want to say that one more time, it's that inability of at least that one person where they feel they can be vulnerable, where they can confide in them, where they can share something they really want to talk about. That's where I feel like I see that really where people have that loneliness and that's where a partner in theory should be your built in, you know, receptacle like they can handle all the stuff you dump on them and so on. But you know, and for some people they have that partner, but they don't feel that intimacy. So they're still desperately looking like it's complicated. It takes a lot of effort and it's so easy to sabotage with the wrong beliefs. And I you know, I think that I again, when I think about with all the patients I've worked with, it goes back to something I said earlier, which is really asking yourself, you know, what assumptions are you bringing into these existing relationships or these potentially new relationships, what belief systems you have, like, you know, and are they are they healthy? Are they based on anything, again, like as you saying, like if someone says, well, for this person to be a friend, they must have these type of criteria, I must feel a certain way. Well, no, that's about a certain type of friendship. Okay. Again, you can get something from this, this and this type of friendship as well. And it may not be as rewarding as you want because a lot of people have a black and white thing. So they might meet five new people and, you know, they get different things from them. But it's not this ideal friendship that they were looking for. So my best friend. So then they just shit all over it and not realize, well wait, that was still pretty good. There's value in that still as well. Yeah. Exactly. So having the right perspective is critical. And again, I'll say it one more time. These friendships do most friendships do take work, especially new ones. And and the embarrassment part because you said it earlier, if I'm always the person asking okay, or if there's a group of people that I met through meet up or whatever, and then I try to ingratiate as a further, I try to go into them and I say, you know, hey, like, you know, what are you doing this weekend or whatever? What if they say, no, that embarrassment is going to inhibit so much? And there are many people like, you know, people with avoidant, personality disorders, the worst case where it's just they're so terrified of rejection, of being laughed at or something like that. And so, again, if that's so, people should recognize what is inhibiting me because someone who's extroverted, they may still have that sense of, you know, like I'm just terrified of being rejected, you know? So I think people really have to recognize that. And the big question again, what am I looking for? And What's stopping like again, what unhealthy beliefs, what stops me from, you know, reaching out or whatever? What am I really afraid is going to happen? Like how bad can it really be? Stuff like that. And cost benefit analysis. Okay, yeah. The risk is maybe I'm going to be embarrassed. Maybe they'll say no. But the benefit is I won't be so lonely or stuff like that. So anyway, yeah, yeah. And I guess the last thing I'll mention here and it really you've encompassed and captured most of what I was going to say here. But I think that male friendships like male and male friendships and female and female friendships are, are a little bit different. And maybe, you know, what women are looking for in their friendships is different than what men are looking for. But I think regardless, those things that you mentioned do apply and just ensuring that you know what it is that you're looking for in a friendship and having some flexibility with that is what is key. Yeah, And as always, with everything we talk about, be honest with yourself, maybe not be honest with the other person, but be honest with yourself. And if there's someone who you know, again is the opposite sex person or whatever, and they are attractive and you have feelings for them, either you take the risk and try it and, you know, either get rejected, embarrassed or whatever, okay? Or maybe break the friendship with it or come to terms with it and say, you know what? I know they're really hot. I wish they would be my partner, but either they're not interested in me or they already have a partner or I have a partner or whatever. So I have to take that. I have to get this from them. I can't get what I really want, but I can still get this. And if this is not sufficient, if you're going to lie to yourself and pretend that you're okay, you're not doing any of either you favors So again, it's the honesty with yourself, what you want, you know, what's going on, what does this mean? And everything that's so important as always, self honesty. So, listeners, we want to know your experiences are with adult friendships. Do you find them easy? Are they difficult? Have you experienced many of the things that we've talked about today? Let us know in the comments. And on that note, until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel.