helping one group overcome adversity doesn't mean squashing down another. And that's precisely what's happening. how can anyone ridicule or mock or shame any, you know, any man for feeling this way and for seeking help or for being honest enough to admit it. I don't think it can be overstated how important these discussions are, and I don't think they're happening enough. you're not crazy, you're not making this up, This is actually happening. Hello and welcome to Awake at the Wheel. So today we're going to be discussing the crisis of masculinity. There's a lot of challenges that men are experiencing with respect to their mental health, but this also broadly speaks to what they're experiencing socially in terms of their occupations within their families in many other areas. So in the past, we've talked about DEI and the role that that sometimes is playing. We've also explored some of the challenges within marriages, where men are increasingly being expected to do more in the household and essentially juggle more, but Oren what's a good place for us to start with this, do you think? Well, I think it's one giving voice to, I would say, many of my male patients who they're the older, they're more like they're established. They've had a long career. They've devoted much of their life to their career. And I think I've talked about how important one's career is not to everybody, but to many people. Your identity is wrapped around it. Your worth, your literal survival can depend on that. You know, if you need the money to pay for yourselves, your family, and so on. And when you reach a certain age, let's say in the forties or fifties, you know, this has always been the case. But I have in the last year or so, maybe two years, I have heard this spoken so often by so many men and women as well. But, you know, we're talking intake where they are struggling with what do I do about my elderly parents? Okay. And so that's being sandwiched between trying to take care of your family issue and, you know, your kids and so on, and also your parents. And, you know, we know traditionally women do take on more of the caregiving role in that regard. So I don't want to in any way minimize or diminish the stress that women go through as well. But for a lot of men, and this has been the case for many, many, many years, it's just I again, I'm hearing it more and more. These days where men in their forties, in their fifties, where they've worked so hard, you know, for their own self-worth again, to support a family. Now they're trying to support their parents or trying to make them proud or be a good son or be a good brother, whatever the case may be. And it's not a coincidence that around that age is where many men are experiencing the greatest levels of depression, of suicidal thoughts, of actual suicide. And it's not being talked about enough. And people say, poor men. And and like in the old days, maybe men got too much focus. But in the last many decades, it's, you know, the pendulum has swung. And of course, we've you and I have talked about this many times. Of course, it's important to make sure that all people, all quote unquote, groups do get attention. But in the last number of years and decades, it seems that all of that has come on the backs of men, where if men you know, if men talk about it, poor men. Okay. Or now you know how we feel. Or it's just men get denigrated for for expressing their vulnerability, for expressing their concerns and fears and just the stresses that they're going through. So I think that would be that's a long winded way of saying maybe that's what we can focus on to begin, because, again, it's just I want to highlight that. And so many men and they even say they say like I can't even talk about it with anybody for the reasons I just mentioned. So that's a start. Yeah. Yeah. So I know within the past decade there are more studies that are showing and it's, you know, existed longer than this. But I recently have been reading studies within the last decade about women and their depression rates being considerably higher than men. But based on what you've said there and based on what I've seen within the clients that I work with as well, men are experiencing a lot of psychological distress around many of those things that you mentioned. And I think at least in part, women historically internalize those thoughts, emotions, experiences, difficulties, challenges and so on, and ruminate and think about it. And, you know, that leads to those, at least in part to that depressed mood, whereas men will typically externalize by doing things and acting and, you know, trying to figure out and problem solve until such a time that whatever that problem is or solving has been resolved or is more so resolvable. But I wonder if there is a role that this increased pressure and increased task load and so on is playing in so far as what used to work before isn't currently working Well. Yeah. And so I mean, I think my very first major research project was on the differences between men and women when it comes to dealing with negative thoughts and women. The research is clear women. And as always, when we talk about men and women not talking, all men are all when we're talking about these. But women are far more likely to, as you say, internalize and ruminate over these experiences as men or more likely to distract themselves. And unfortunately, alcohol and drugs are far more common among men when it comes to a distraction. So that's one unhealthier maladaptive way of dealing with this. Right. But with all this focus in the last number of years about saying that, you know, men are toxic, traditional masculinity is toxic masculinity, no men should reflect more men should be more introspective. You know that trying to and by the way, you know, as a psychologist, of course, and I know the work that we do, we do encourage introspection, we to encourage reflection and insight and so on, of course. But to say that in this case, where this is work for you or that you know that you want to try this, this kind of maybe, you know, externalizing or distraction temporarily to get them into the right headspace before doing the reflection introspection. Because if you reflect or interest or if you tried to reflect or introspect when you're in the wrong mental state, it can you know, it will often become rumination. So why would we encourage men to do something that's been proven, you know, to to harm women? Right. Rumination. Well, Dharma, anybody. Right. Rumination is not healthy reflection. Introspection is rumination. It's passive. It's it's it doesn't have a solution to it. It's just kind of sitting there as stuck and mired in the pain and the discomfort and so on without any end point. So, you know, it just seems that there has been such a shift toward that or and you and I've talked about this countless times with the feminization of psychotherapy and psychology, we know that far too many therapists will just empathize with the man. And, you know, and it's good to have that compassion. It's good to have empathy. But if it's only empathy that's not productive and that something. Without action isn't helpful. Exactly right. So so yeah. And so I think, you know, you and I know we've had this talk a number of times where we're really trying to sort of change the perspective on all of this and say, let's, you know, let's look at what worked before. Let's not assume that everything worked before was good. You know, that's why we need to change. We need to progress. We need to adapt with what the science says. And I think it's pretty clear the science does show, if you look at it objectively enough and honestly enough and with enough looking at a comprehensive to do a comprehensive approach to looking at all the literature that that the approach that are being shoveled down men's throats these days is not helpful for most men, or at least a large number of men. And like we've spoken about before, the the research that's out there and available to psychotherapists and to psychologists is largely conducted on females, and that does not translate necessarily to male patients and male clients. So I think that one of the biggest barriers to accessing accepting psychotherapy or engaging in psychotherapy for men is the assumption that they are going to go and just, you know, sit around and hold hands and sing Kumbaya and talk about their emotions. But unfortunately, I think that it is taking that direction in some cases, because there isn't a clear understanding in our profession that the way that men heal from things is very different than the way that women do. And again, not all, but in many cases. Right. And I would recommend readers. I hope that we should we should Lincoln, in the description, look back at a podcast we did a little while ago where we looked at how the American Psychological Association contributed to this mess with this horrible manual that they put out, you know, of how to help men. And it was again, please, everyone, check it out. I think we do a great job of covering it and eviscerating this manual. Okay. And one thing and the reason that I want to bring up this particular group, when you said, like, where do we begin, not only is it that again, they're sandwiched between their parents, let's say, and the children or their partner that they're trying to support. Okay. But also and this is what's so important, I've lost count. I've literally lost count of the number of people, including mostly patients, again, once again, men who've established themselves in their career. And I'm talking about every field that you can imagine, every single one, where they were on a certain trajectory and they earned it. Okay. And when people talk about, well, no, they were given it because of the patriarchy or something else, okay, This construct of the patriarchy, you and I have talked about this. There are some countries where I look at and go, Yup, there's clear benefits and there are very few benefits for females. All right. And you are examples countless times that, you know, within Canada or in the United States, the Yes men have so many benefits that maybe women have less than or don't have. And conversely, women have so many benefits that men don't have or have less than. Right. So in any event, so when they talk about this patriarchy on an individual level, I think this is what's so important that you and I are trying to get through people's heads, especially anyone in a helping profession. Forget the patriarchy, Look at the individual in front of you. That individual, even if they somehow magically benefited from the patriarchy in some way that they know no one to put their finger on is just some concept. Even in this case, the person in front of us is still dealing with the struggles, the stress and so on. And the one that I want, I'm building up to is that when they've reached a certain position in their career and they know that given everything they've done, given how they've conducted themselves professionally, effectively, with integrity, that they should be able to get to the next level. And they have been it has been made exceedingly clear they're not going to get there because they are a white male that's used to being white, straight male. But I've got a lot of gay patients who are saying being a white male that trumps being gay means nothing anymore. Okay, If I were. Because there's nothing outwardly showing that right, or. Even even even if they were to, you know, to try to play that card, they go, all right. In the hierarchy, the the you know, the victim, this victimhood hierarchy, they're still pretty good. The gay the white gay male is quite low gay. They've lost status. So. Right. So again, so many men I've spoken to have said that. And I will say Scott Adams, we've done a few podcasts on Scott Adams, the Dilbert creator. He claims, and I was too young at the time, so I can't say yes or no. Okay. But he claims that what I'm talking more right now has been around for 40 years. He keeps saying for 40 years he keeps going. I think he said for different jobs where he was denied a promotion. He was specifically told by his superior, you will not get this promotion because you are a white male. Okay. And he said that dates back about 40 years ago. So maybe that's true. Maybe it's true in the States. I can't say that because that wasn't my experience with I was too young at the time. Right. But I can say over the last couple of decades, and especially, of course, the past decade in particular, I have seen it directly. And I have you know, I've seen the effects directly. And I began working with so many patients. I see. And these are, like I said, this, I said, these are people who are established. These are not young men, just graduated from university. And realizing that, you know, being a white male is to their detriment. I mean, that's a fact as well. That is a fact. We know this now. The numbers, I think, are pretty clear, but I'm talking about men who have been in the business for a long time. Again, they've proven themselves. And, you know, so when so much of your identity is wrapped up in your success in your field and whether it's the accolades, whether it's a sense of control and competence and accomplishment and so on, whatever it is, when all that's pulled out from under you. Right. That does a it deals a devastating blow to your sense of self. It leads to despair, leads to confusion, leads to like, what's your point? You get into an existential crisis, basically, like, what the hell have you been doing all this time? You know, And it's again, it's not just about the the kind of the psychological impact. It's also the concern about the practical about, you know, in fact, they had a trajectory in mind. They knew what the next steps were going to be. And they wanted to be able to provide for themselves into the future ended for their parents and for their kids and so on. And, you know, for somebody who's making minimum wage, they're going to hear this and they're going to not have much empathy. I get that. I fully understand that because these people I'm talking about, they have made, let's say, you know, financially far more than the average person could ever expect. Okay, So they're going to be okay. But still, you know, when you have a surge. Still a real impact, though. There's finance. Finance as a side. Yeah. Yeah. And you live a certain way and you you know, you've accumulated debt or you have certain again, you've tried to, you know, to, to leave a better life for your kids and so on. Every parent wants to be able to do that. And then when you're realizing this may not be the case again, not for something that I did, but because society has changed and is changing on the backs of men, basically. So I just want to give a voice to my many patients, friends, colleagues, whoever who have had this experience. I think it's important to put it out there. Yeah. And I've seen, unfortunately, the same with the number of the clients that I work with, and I'll share anecdotally just to ensure that our listeners, where I call myself before the President of the He-Man Woman Haters club, I'm not, I promise, because I, I do believe that in my last career I did experience remnants of the old boys club. Maybe I sucked at my job. I don't think so, because I'm a pretty proficient and capable person. But I was passed up literally for ten positions in my last career before I made the choice to change careers into psychotherapy. So it's not to say it doesn't exist again. Maybe there is other factors that I wasn't aware of. Maybe I was just terrible at my job and I don't think so. But it certainly did exist and does exist and does happen. Unfortunately. I don't think it's to the degree that we are made to believe it's happening in society. And again, especially in the last decade, I would say that it's it's kind of swung completely the other way to the point where it's really, really impacting people who are deserving of certain positions and just aren't getting them. And. Exactly. And the thing is, many people will talk about anecdotes, and I use anecdotes all the time as well. So there's a place for anecdotes. But here's a thing. What you and I are talking about, about this, you know, tangible shift away from white males. The proof is in black and white. You and I can point out, and I reposes on X all the time. Okay. Jobs, job descriptions where it specifically says, you know, we're looking for work. And in every single case, there's never a job that says white males, okay, if you're a male, you have to be a male of color or belong to the LGBT, you know, group groupings. Right? That's it's it's literally in black and white in this job. It discriminates against white males. And whether it's about job positions, whether it's about funding, whether you want to start a business or something like that. Okay, There's always provisions for other groups which, again, you and I have said, give a leg up. Great. We want research. And if certain groups are, you know, or let's say groups or peoples are underrepresented or are being marginalized or discriminated against, of course we want to help get them back on track. So they are on a somewhat more equal footing. I don't know if you can ever achieve that, but we're aiming for that. Right. But the fact is, while all we're saying is that in the process of doing that, A, it's proof that, you know, that that these things only these advantages are only offered to non white males and B, it's gone so far overboard in many cases that even though the discrepancies have been corrected for, it's still happening. All right. So I've seen positions like in psychology departments where they're looking for, you know, when they're talking about these different groups, there may be some underrepresented groups. White women doesn't say women of color, just as women are always listed. Yet women comprise the vast majority. Of the profession. Now we're just psychotherapists, right? Yeah. So again, it's just that people are asleep at the wheel and they're operating as if the society today is the same as it was 40 or 50 or 100 years ago. Exactly. Exactly. And and to add to what you said, helping one group overcome adversity doesn't mean squashing down another. And that's precisely what's happening. Right. And again, we're not just ranting about a system in place. This is truly systemic. Okay? They talk about systemic sexism, racism, etc.. This is literally systemic because it's literally into the system. Okay? It's not just about that. You know, I've said this before, it's about each individual person who is affected by this and the impact it has on that person. And when so many of these individuals are suffering, how especially these are people who know if they were not that they held down, they're not asking for a foot up. There is actually not that right. But for every one of those competent, capable people who was a contributing member of society who helped their field progress, every time you push that person out the door and there's not necessarily someone equally capable to, you know, take over. And what I'm seeing, again, many of these people are telling me this, that the people being put in the ushered through the door are not the most capable. Some are, of course, okay. But DEI has ensured that it's not going to be the most capable. And I want to say that I think we said this before, but I'll say it one more time. It's not that because DEI is taking certain people that these people themselves are, you know, are not as capable. It's just that if there's a certain pool of people and they're all being offered the best jobs after a while, the best, they're already accounted for. So now you're going for second, third and fourth tier and there's our first tier and these other groups that just aren't being given the opportunity. So we're by by definition, we're ensuring that the workforce is getting watered down in these different fields and you're not getting the best and brightest. And we also know we've talked about this, I believe, before. We know that in the many programs that you have to enter in order to be able to come out, the other end as a professional, those requirements are being watered down for the sake of equity, for justice, for inclusion and for diversity. But the reality is all you're doing is producing a much more inferior product. And once again, the people who worked damn hard to get where they are to see that wait a second, people who again, some of them, it's just like my job is at risk for other people. And I've said this myself, when you see the your field something that you've tried really hard to elevate, something you've tried to you see as having value when you're seeing it being shifted and being distorted and being watered down and just deteriorating, it causes, you know, a lot of existential stress because again, I do have faith. I had faith in psychology, in psychotherapy, right in the field of mental health. And I've seen what's happening, you know, all in the name of ideology. And it's always, you know, good intentions executed poorly. So once again, this is not just to people ranting, this is to people reporting on what we're seeing as an impact to the individuals and to the fields more broadly. Yeah. So two things I'll say there before people want to burn us at the stake for seeing what we're saying here, I really want anyone who disagrees with what we're saying or at least is taking issue with what we're saying to stop and think and have some empathy for those people that you're describing who have worked their asses off to get to where they've gotten to. These people have worked their asses off their entire lives. And because of factors that are outside of their control, for example, being a white man, they're not being afforded what they are deserving of. And take that, you know, as you will, but this is the whole point of of meritocracy and allowing the best and the brightest people to be in these positions that help to elevate society. And this is not to say that diverse people aren't the best and the brightest. Again, I'll use myself as an example. I think I'm quite skilled and adept and I'm also very diverse. So obviously I believe in diversity and and there's a real sound place for for such people in society and in the business world and so on. But this is having a significant impact on people, on their identity, on their emotional health, on their social health, their status in the world. And it is a big, big problem. And to draw it back to men in particular, and again, I feel like I always have to preface when I defend men, I don't think women belong in the kitchen. I own a business and I'm I'm quite successful and I'm a woman. So obviously I believe that women belong in the work world. But I think that a unique impact this is having on men is that generally speaking, it is in men's nature to provide for their families, take care of their families, be the head of the household. And when that is being so eroded and diminished and kicked down, I think it has a much different unique impact on men as opposed to women who aren't succeeding in the work world right. Because I people hate this and we've talked about this, but, you know, there are biological differences between men and women. And this has been shaped over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. And that ability, as you say, to provide to be in charge, to lead to, you know, to protect whatever that is, it would it would make sense that these were traits, these were qualities that were essential many, many years ago, like cave women didn't have credit cards. So we needed certain traits in both men and women. And if if you know, if for many, many years. Right. The successful men were the ones who had these certain these drives and were able to actualize it, and suddenly, like literally in the course of a generation or two, suddenly those same traits, attributes and so on are being like basically shit upon. You're being told that this is toxic, you know, or that you're seeing that. Wait a second. All of this effort that I'm putting in, this thing that seems to be inside of me, this thing that fuels me, this drive to be the best or to to succeed or to, you know, to to be a contributing partner and and to protect and so on. Seeing that. Wait a second. I'm not really having an outlet for this or I'm not feeling that this is I feel like this is going to come to not because I'm being told that, you know, women don't need men and men are useless and this and that. It just it it does something once again, the way we experience it psychologically and emotionally and we manifest it behaviorally, whether it's turning to substances, whether it's losing motivation, whether it's withdrawing, whether it's having negative, hateful attitudes toward women, or not wanting to start a family and so on. It's the wondering what the hell, what point is is in all of this. Right. It does have an impact. And once again, talk about the patriarchy. All you can talk about systems all you want. You and I, we work on the individual level and we see a lot of good people. We see very many good people who are suffering. And again, even though we're talking about men, we've also talked about women before, and I've said this before, if men go down, so do women. It's going to affect society. To society goes down, right? Yeah. And to be clear, if we were talking about women today and we're talking about women all failing and not doing well and having a mental health crisis among women, then I would say the same thing. If women go down, society goes down. So we may go down a different way. We might still have strong borders. We may still have, you know, the sewage system working and everything like that. But there would be a lot of other very unhealthy elements of society if women were to suddenly, I think if they were degraded the way that men have been over the last number of years. And I think, you know, at the top of the episode, I talked about relationships and how this is all impacting relationships. I think it is largely impacting men's understanding of, again, their place in the family, their place in the household, their place in the relationship, because there are so many mixed messages that they're receiving. We've spoken before about the expectation, the increased expectation of men taking care of the kids and taking care of the house and working and being incredibly successful. And the list goes on. And what I'm seeing a lot on social media these days is and frankly, in my office as well, is men feeling incredibly unacknowledged, unappreciated, and just being asked to do more and more and more. That then turns into their wives being angry at them, which then turns into a lack of affection. So I think it's a self-perpetuating cycle that is just getting worse and worse as all of these mixed messages swirl around and cause real impact in society. Right. And I think pressure I think I do the male triangle. Triangle. Long time ago. The. I think. So. Yeah. Maybe the long. Time. yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's worth repeating that this model that I saw I got 20 years ago or so was originally developed with abusive men. And then I saw. Wait a second. But the same thing happens with so many other men, which is the man, whether it's biological, whether it's cultural. But we want the average man, not all men, but healthy functioning men want to see themselves as the hero. And if that hero role is either thwarted or diminished, then they slide into the victim. And and but they don't really remain the victim for too long. They end up going into the villain role. And that's the triangle, the hero, victim, villain. And for some men, they go straight from hero to villain. But in their mind, they don't say I'm being the villain. In their mind, they see themselves as the victim. So, you know, whether we're talking about how they behave or what's going on inside of them, that triangle is so predictable. If you're a villain victim, you're a victim villain. And I don't say it's always going in that same direction, but, you know, go hero, victim, villain, victim, villain, victim. Before they get back to the hero again, my take some time but people women, others have to understand that if you do not allow the man to try to play the role of the hero and when I say hero, it's not in a word pandering way is not name, but down women way is not poor fragile. It is not that the hero to me is the man who is same as women. I say the same thing. The woman should try to be the hero as well, is to actualize yourself, is to reach your potential, find fulfillment, you know, do right by others. That, to me is the hero and any person can play it. Male or female doesn't matter. Okay. But what I'm saying is when you do what society has been doing and when I say society, I'm also referring to our respective fields of talk back in India that so many men are, you know, are being, let's say, dissuaded from taking on that hero role, whether it's because it's being portrayed as toxic or as we've talked about, they're saying like, what's the point? Like, why should I do this? Why should I give to others? I'm not seeing any reciprocity. You know, all I'm saying is being shit on. So I'm going to become very self-absorbed, individualistic, maybe even they become narcissistic, Right. And so and to be clear, I always do this caveat, right. But let's be clear here. There are many men who don't need any external input to become the villain or to be selfish and narcissistic. And they can become that way from birth or through from very early upbringing. So it doesn't have to be, you know, the societal input. But I'm just saying that that the factor, the forces that we're describing, the factors that we're, you know, we're highlighting here, they can turn any good man that Yeah. And that's what we're trying to talk we hear the good healthy men out there and how they are being so negatively impacted by this. Right. And and I don't have the stats with me, but we do know that proportionally speaking, the men in their I think it's like the white men in there depending on which study you looking at, whether 40 or 40 to 50 or 45 to 55. But you know, there is that range where that's the highest rate of suicide, not suicidal attempts, suicide completion, because we know statistically and I think every age group, females are more likely to have suicidal ideation and more likely to attempt by males. You know, it can be anywhere between like two or three times more likely for females, for attempts. But for actual completions, men are 2 to 3 depending on age group two, four times more likely to have completed the, you know, the suicide. And that's the ultimate sign of despair. That's the ultimate sign of poor mental health, is we know in such drastic measures. So we can't deny those numbers. These are facts. So how can anyone, how can anyone ridicule or mock or shame any, you know, any man for feeling this way and for seeking help or for being honest enough to admit it. So, you know, but that's what they get. There is a lot of ridicule, you know, and it's not everybody. But what seeing more and more of that, more divisiveness. And again, we've talked about this quite a few times, but I think it's worth repeating. And like I said, I don't think I had covered that particular age group. You know what we're talking about where these men who, you know, truly, you know, once again, they've been in a they've worked so hard to get to a certain place. And I was all being pulled out from under them. So anyway. And I think there's overlap with that 45 to 55 year old males and the impact on their careers from everything that we're discussing here and I diety I think I did is not something that people perhaps consider seriously enough. And the role that that plays in mental health, it it bears repeating. We've said it over and over again that having some sort of identity where you feel fulfilled is incredibly important. Are there problems with solely identifying with your career? Sure, of course there is. But feeling fulfilled often comes from a career, especially at that stage in life. And if that is being eroded, there's a problem. I mean, we've talked about it. Fulfillment is meaning and purpose and. Right. And and when your job is take either taken away or you find there's a ceiling imposed on you or that people who don't deserve to, you know, they don't have the merit yet they're being promoted and you're not and you know, you never will. Where's the purpose? Where's the meaning? It's really hard to, you know, to to compel yourself to continue in that path. And so it's a huge shift. So, yeah, it's what are we? But, you know, our identities are a huge part of us, right? They really are. And so I don't think it can be overstated how important these discussions are, and I don't think they're happening enough. And again, I just want to just go back to why I felt so compelled to talk about this in the first place, that the men that I am talking to, they don't want to share with their wives because they want to be that rock. They don't want to, you know, they're not going to share with their kids, their adult children night. They want to write. They want to be there for the people. They want to be stoic. They it's hard to find any people at work because, you know, a lot of them, a lot of their male colleagues have already been forced out or have retired just because they're sick of what they're seeing. And so if they say someone else and they're just, you know, a whining, you know, complaining man, now and then they risk, you know, God forbid, if they say, hey, all the metrics show that I should have got that position. And the person who got the position just happened to get it because of these features that have nothing to do with merit. Well, now they are a racist or sexist or homophobic or whatever you want to call them, and you know, their job is in jeopardy. So is their reputation. So they feel so silenced. And we know that when someone has stress, distress, anger, anxiety, and it's silenced, that that translates into in many ways eventually into depression. And it gets turned upon yourself. That's and it becomes internalized. And, you know, or they can ruminate and they just feel so powerless. So, you know, this is why, again, we're we're hoping that people hear this, maybe share with somebody who, you know, who might be feeling this way and doesn't really want to talk about it, or even if you don't know, just say just let a man know that there are people out there. And for health professionals who are recognizing and talking about this and someone's going to complain and go, come on, many people are doing this. Maybe I'm just not seeing that much of it. I'm really. Not either. Yeah, and I'm racking my brain here to answer a usual question of what can people do here? And I guess that is a big starting point, is helping men out there recognize like, you're not crazy, you're not making this up, This is actually happening. And like you've said, we work with individuals, many, many individuals who are experiencing this and have experienced it. And just don't know what to do with it because of the narrative that's out there of if you say anything you are, fill in the blank. So as far as what people can do, I would say is, you know, recognizing that this is actually happening. And it's my hope with some of the political craziness going on, I hope it doesn't swing too far the other way now. But I'm hoping things do come to some level of normalcy again, where we can recognize the power that people of diverse groups bring to the table. People with diverse experiences and so on are very, very valuable to have in our workplaces, in our circles, but also not in doing so excluding white people. Exactly right. And I guess and then the final point, you know, just encouraging as always, if you know someone who may be struggling, you know, encouraging them to maybe seek help. But if you are going to do that, you and I'm sure talked about this, do your due diligence, reach out before you commit therapy, talk to somebody, let you know, don't say don't give away too much, ask questions, ask, you know, about what's their approach like, Maybe give some hypotheticals again, without too much guidance because they may know what you're looking for. You want to hear their honest answers and you know, you want to hear someone who will be able to tell you or to to, let's say, convince you basically that they are going to be there. They will be empathetic, but they are going to look for solutions that are going to help you. You know, they say shift your perspective. And it's not to say, hey, you know, you're wrong, that there's nothing there's not a problem. It's not that it's more about, okay, what can you do about it? Is there a way to, you know, to somehow either change your environment, change your approach, maybe, you know, look for other outlets to regenerate that sense of meaning and purpose. If you're not getting it at work right now, find other pursuits, invest in your family or something else. Maybe something that you haven't been that you maybe have let kind of slip by the side in your pursuit of other, you know, sources of fulfillment. Maybe it's time to step back, reevaluate and say, you know what? You know, my my sense, my identity. It shouldn't only be wrapped up in this. There are other places where I can, you know, again, manifest these these things that I want to be this kind of person. I want to be live by my values. Right. And so shifting the perspective to say, you know what, society has changed to some degree, it is not good in many ways, but can I find a way to make or to find some good out of this and come out on the other end? You know, that's a reasonably intact and maybe even better than before. And I think that acceptance part of it is it's grim, but I think important and I often say acceptance doesn't mean approval. You don't have to like that. This is the way things are. But there is some power in accepting that, okay, this is how it is. I've taken control of what I can, but there's many elements outside of my control. Right? And I'll say and that's that's the internal locus of control that we've talked about a number of times. And so one last thing I think we've talked I've talked about this before, but to your point, when if you're in a in a large company and they tell you that there's going to be a series of layoffs, you know, in the next, let's say, two years and the first wave comes, 1% of the people are gone. Okay? And I always ask who's who's functioning better? The 1% that was laid off or the remaining 99%. And, you know, you realize, it's actually the the 1% are better off because at least now they know what their future is. They they may not know what the next six months or a year or whatever it may be. And in this market, I know how hard is to get to go back into the workforce. And I understand that there's rejection after rejection. It's terrifying. I get it. But at least now they know. Here's where I stand. And as you said, acceptance doesn't mean approval. I may not like it, but at least I know. So now I can take the next steps to, you know, to find another path in my life versus a person who's just waiting, waiting, waiting. And they're in limbo for the next six months or two years or whatever. They're not doing well because there's constantly they're a source, there's a feeling of anxiety. The sword of Damocles is hanging over their head and they're just waiting for it to drop. So, you know, so that's that's a type of framing that can help people, you know, just to shift their perspective. They may not be able to change the reality, parts of the reality around them, but change their perspective, change that narrative can help them, you know, maybe find a way out of what might seem like a grim or desperate situation. So absolutely. So to our listeners, let us know in the comments if you've experienced something like this. And as always, run. Until next time. Keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel.