we may be able to stop these things, but thousands of people have already been harmed. there's going to be a wave of, of plaintiffs in the future. I said, who are going to look back and say, oh my goodness, I made a terrible mistake. It can be very alluring to think that they have a way out. They have a way out in a way to be someone else. Hello and welcome to awake at the wheel. So in today's episode, we are joined by two women who are at the forefront of one of the most controversial conversations of our time. We're going to explore the personal convictions, legal insights, and human stories behind their work in supporting Detransition, as well as families who are affected and navigating, gender related distress. So we are joined today by Lynn Chadwick as well as Michelle Mackness from Themis Resource Fund. So Lynn is a founding member of the nonprofit Themis Resource Fund which connects detransition plaintiffs in the US with attorneys and helps to fund litigation related to gender related medicine cases. Michelle is a Canadian counselor, as well as a coach who works with families who are navigating gender related distress. In addition to, being in senior leadership at GenSpect Canada, as well as a member of the board at Themis. So welcome. Thank you so much for being with us today. Can each of you tell us a bit more about your professional background and, tell us a bit more about Themis as well? Sure. I'll start. Well, I didn't really come into this as a professional. I came into this as a parent. I have two adult children who are both medically transitioned. And as often happens in that circumstance, they became estranged from me. It was a very painful experience. And after that happened, I began connecting with a lot of other parents who were also going through the same thing, which is very difficult. And we all love our children very much. And, we wish the very best things for them and what we have learned as parents is that at such time, when our children no longer identify as trends or they want to detransition, if they should want to detransition, there are not very many off ramps for them. There are no medical codes for any kind of special medical care for them, which they need. There's a huge paucity of therapists that have any clue about their issues. And, they are unable to bring their doctors and therapists into any kind of accountability for many reasons, which we can talk about later in this interview. It's very hard for them to get any sort of legal recompense or judgments or anything. And, so I started talking to attorneys and other people to find out kind of why why this was occurring. And, my, decision to start Famous Resource Fund came out of those conversations. And so we're currently helping people to get, accountability, justice for the harms that they've endured. And and, Michelle, those are. Yes. So I'm, a former therapist and now working still in private practice, sort of providing dialog, dialogical talk services to people. American philosophical practitioner, Association certified philosophical counselor. And I'm also doing some life coach work. So, both of those are not they're not psychotherapy. They're not clinical counseling. They're they're talking about difficulties in life and not looking to resolve pathology or looking to solve something that's broken. It's really about self-exploration and hopefully a path towards flourishing for folks. I got into this work right many, many moons ago. So I started working in the front lines in social services in Toronto and Vancouver and big cities in Canada. And in that work, I'd always there were always folks who were trans identified, and they were generally, natal males, very vulnerable, working on the streets. And, I always had a lot of compassion and empathy and curiosity about that experience. And fast forward, I went to school, I got my master's in counseling, and I worked at a trans wellness clinic doing work, just providing talk therapy, for adults who happen to be living with gender dysphoria. And it would often just be about other life's issues because regardless of someone's identity, they still just encounter difficulties in life that they'd like to discuss. But at that time, I started to notice things being past, like Self-Id. And I was concerned around that, especially around, you know, detox beds, the recovery beds for women or incarcerated women. And I was told, you know, that will never happen. And then, as we know, all the things that they said would never happen started happening. And I'd sort of between, Peterson and interviews, or and that I've seen you do with Peterson and with James Cantor back in the day. These things started slowly. The pieces started coming together because it's a really complex issue. And I found Twitter, and I was able to connect with other professionals. And that's how I got connected ultimately with, GenSpect, and I was, director be on trans for a while while we were just getting it set up and figuring out ways to provide services for Detransition or specific to them with clinicians who were interested in qualified and had a community around them to provide services for this really new population, about whom there wasn't a lot of literature or knowledge. So for personal reasons, I had to step back for a while. And I was grateful enough to become part of famous and, and so I'm continuing to do work primarily with parents at this time. I did some group facilitation with the gender dysphoria Support Network, which is one of the first places, Lynn, I think you and I met many moons ago in those rooms. And so that's where, yeah, that's my rambling story about what I'm doing professionally and how I got here. Yeah. So my next questions for both of you, but I guess, Michelle, I'll start with you. Because of your history as a clinician, was there a point in your work where you noted or realized that the systems that were in place rather flawed, or the systems that were designed to help people were, in fact, maybe not helping them? I think when I was still working in the system and self self-id was had gone through and I started noticing that just anybody could make a declaration of gender. And then I have access to spaces that, in my view, was inappropriate. Namely natal males, intact males being placed with women in prisons and being placed with women in recovery centers. And if some of those female recovery centers, often sort of second wave based feminist thinking behind those recovery centers made objections, they were bullied and told that if they did not accept Natal males, that they would lose their funding. And, there was a lot of talk, like, not everyone with a phallus is a rapist, and that the women who might have problems with this really need to reexamine their trauma. And I found that disturbing. And then I noted there was no room for dissent. And anyone who asked questions, was completely ostracized. So we saw what happened with Peterson. I saw what happened with Megan Murphy. I saw what happened with, Oren, and it became evident to me that the systems were set up. I mean, I don't pretend to know the hearts and minds of others, but whatever they're claimed intentions were, it wasn't really matching with the reality. And I started meeting, with trans people who weren't getting adequate house. And the focus was on sort of political movements and, sort of a desire to take over women's spaces. And to bring in children rather than addressing what 50 year old trans identifying men should be doing with their hormone treatment, or what long term effects of any of these interventions are. So it was it was disconcerting and a little depressing. And, Lynn, how about you? I'm curious if there was a point where you recognize that the systems that were in place were either flawed or the systems that were developed that were intended to help people were perhaps doing the opposite. I feel like it's something I've always known. I've been aware of it for so long. My son transitioned in 2003. So this has been part of my life for decades. And unfortunately, he, he went to Thailand and had surgery, and so that's irreversible. So that hit me decades ago as something that was both incomprehensible and very real. And, it just it's never made sense to me that we should surgically and medically treat people with draconian interventions because they're mentally hurting. And, I don't think any reasonable, compassionate person should believe that. And it's only gotten crazier in the intervening years, especially the last ten. So, I think that I do believe I believe that There's good incremental progress happening right now to the point where I believe that these medical interventions will be either slowed or stopped for most people, particularly minors. But, I, I have a lot to say about that as well, because I personally believe that adults also deserve safe, effective and evidence based medical interventions at all times, and no one should be offering bad interventions to people as a civil right. It's just not a right. It's medicine. it's just that we may we may be able to stop these things, but thousands of people have already been harmed. And we need to put systems in place to help those people. And, so that's what we're trying to do. Okay. And I mean, so your son, you transitioned in 2003, which means, I mean, when you say transition, like you medically transition in 2003 or he came out in 2000. And three, he told me during a car ride in 2003 that he thought he had always been a woman, something that no one in his life, including myself, had ever had any inkling of. He had never given anyone any, any signs that he felt like he was a woman. I'm you know, I, I'm not in had I you know, I don't know why people believe things but it happens so. Right. But the the medics, the medicalization happened in the years following that pretty shortly after. Yeah. Okay. How old was he in 2002? He was 21 when he made the announcement to me. So. And that's a fairly common age, you know, for young people to make this announcement to their parents. And the frightening thing as a parent at that point is there's nothing you can do to prevent it. If they want to get medically transition, they will. And, you know, there's there's not a lot you can do. So it's very it's very it's a very powerless feeling. It's very frightening. Chilling. And it's unfortunately becoming pretty common. Right. And back then, I mean, I'm not sure in your jurisdiction, but in Toronto, some, you know, someone presented that way, they, you know, if they were to get medical care and seek psychological psychiatric care, they would have to live, you know, as a woman before medically transitioned, that there would be, you know, there'd be a process. It wouldn't be as easy as it is today. So what was your experience? I know you went to Thailand. So was that the only place that you was able to get it on demand or. Yes, I believe in Thailand. Even in 2005, if you had the money, you would get the surgery. They don't care, right? There's no standards, right? Yeah. Right. But at the time, where you were, if you had gone through like a couple of years of assessment and treatment and so on, and they said, you know what? We've tried, you know, we've tried and this is the best course of action for him. Would you have been able to get it in the States or it wasn't readily available then? I, I really don't know. I'm sorry. Okay. Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure that he would have received a lot more counseling and it would have been much less ideologically driven than the care is now. So I'm sure it would have been slower. But when you're talking about medical tourism, you know, all bets are off and and it is a thing. And I think that's something that will always be available, to people if they want to get on a plane and fly to a foreign country, I'm sure if they're determined enough, they'll be able to do this. But at the current time, we're funding it for everyone. In an unquestioned way through in America, through the health insurance and Medicaid and Medicare programs and in Canada through your health, care as well. It's just considered a cover necessary, procedure, which it never should be. Okay. Just one. More. Right. And just one more thing Melanie before you go. Yeah. Okay. So maybe seven or I can't remember the years maybe it was probably was seven maybe eight years ago I was speaking to a number of lawyers because you know people or it seemed like some of my podcasts and I was talking out about this and, so some lawyers in America and Canada and I was explaining to them about, you know, like what people are presenting as trans, you know, like it's, it's a, it's, it's a false representation. Okay. And like, and as explained to that, these different pathways to becoming trans and so on. Right. And they had no clue. So I said to them, I said, and I, you know, I could see, as the two of you have seen as well, you know, that there was it was heading down a path of, you know, a basically just, you know, you say you're trans, go check whether it's self ID, whether it's getting, you know, the treatment that you want or treatment. Right. So I said to them, I said there's going to be a wave of, of plaintiffs in the future. I said, who are going to look back and say, oh my goodness, I made a terrible mistake. And so it was around the time of ROE, GHD or rapid onset gender dysphoria, which Molly, I've talked about a number of times on the podcast, so probably around 2018. And I told them, I said, you're going to get a lot of plaintiffs. And I asked them, I said, like, you know, are you going can, you know, if I get if I can round people up, would you do a class action suit, lawsuit again against these providers? And they all said every person I talked to in the States, in Canada said, well, we can't touch this. First of all, they're all shocked at what was going on, right? They hadn't heard about it. And then they said, we can't touch this because we don't want our firm to be tarnished, you know, as transphobic. They were terrified. Right. And in Canada and in the States. So, so what has changed over the years that allows people who have been harmed, you know, severely life altering, maybe life ruined, like in a life ruined manner. To get compensation. Finally. Well, currently, we're not getting no one is getting compensated. And that's why Themis Resource Fund exists. So we now have, we have plaintiffs who want to sue, and we have attorneys who want to represent them. So that's good. However, we don't have a friendly court system. We have short statutes of limitation clauses, which absolutely. In a lot of cases, that's the end of the case, although, thankfully there is no statute of limitations on fraud. And since people are lying to all of these people through their teeth, they still can get sued for fraud. And I hope they do. But they deserve to be sued for the poor, sloppy, ideologically driven and harmful things that they are doing to vulnerable people and I believe that we can get there, but we need to work together to make it happen. So another thing that's making it very hard for anyone to make any progress, frankly, is money. It is prohibitively expensive to bring these cases to trial. So you're probably familiar with a, law firm that we've worked a lot with, call in this day. It's called Campbell, Miller Payne. And they represent a lot of the cases that are happening in the US and good cases. And I'm very happy to be working with them. Amidst among other attorneys that we know of. But this is the only, practice in the United States, the only firm that is exclusively devoted to representing Detransition people. And we're really grateful for them. But they told me that one case, if it gets all the way through to trial, will cost about $1.3 million in costs. This is not for the attorneys. This is for, depositions. This is for expert witness papers that need to be written. Those expert witness papers and reports cost an average of $30,000. And often they need eight, nine, ten of them. And the the court costs are huge. These cases go on for years. So this is this is a very big undertaking that they're doing. And since no one has won any cases so far, everybody's just spending a lot of money to try to get these cases over the hill, over the edge. So they even get into court. This is how hard this fight is. And if we ever want to bring these practitioners, and I hate to even use the word therapists, I don't think they deserve that title. These people who have harmed, harmed all of these vulnerable young people if they are ever going to be brought into account, it's going to take a, community effort, a big one. So that's why we're trying to draw together everyone that's willing to help. And, and we also connect the Detransition heirs with attorneys that will take their cases, and we help the attorneys, like, there are some attorneys that are interested in taking the cases, but they don't have a lot of knowledge about the subject. And we, we're able to help them kind of get up to speed a little bit, see if there's some resources that they need that we can connect them with. We're very well connected with, people all over the U.S that are working on this, both as experts and as attorneys. So Michelle's on her board and grateful for her. There's another therapist on our board and two attorneys. So we but I'm the only person it's not either a therapist or an attorney or so. Anyway, so that's kind of what we're doing. How are the funds raised? Yeah, they are 100% donations, and nearly 100% of what we take in goes straight back out to the cases. We have almost no overhead. Most of it is just unfortunately, I haven't found anybody that can do all my tech stuff for free. So we have to pay for tech and things like that, but those are really low cost. So everything that we receive and all the generous donations that we are able to, to obtain, which we're grateful for, they all go right into these cases. So, Michelle, I'm wondering if you can talk a bit more from your perspective. As. A former. Clinician and with the work that you do, like what inspired you to get to this level of advocacy in this space? Because especially with the the controversial nature of it, I think we, we know as clinicians that it can, come with some risks. But despite that, what inspired you to to push forward. it sort of comes back to your earlier question about the moment I saw things that weren't going well. And I think what I got tired of was the idea that there was no room for conversation and having, a great commitment and belief to the exchange of ideas, the free exchange of ideas. I found that quite disturbing. And I also noticed that none of these services, if you go and search, a girl or trans care book, and you do a search on their site or SOS you one, two, three for regret assistance detransition it all comes up basically zero. There's literally no information about any of that. And I know, for instance, that some detransition rates have gone to do trans care BC and I've asked them for help, and they said a few years ago that there would be materials on their site around that phenomena. And, there is still up, you know, up to last week, no information available. They gloss over the idea that for some people, these interventions are devastating and life altering in the difficult and painful way. And so. I was involved. It was scary. You know, I'd seen what others had gone through, and we of course, we had Bill c4 c6 go through Bill C16. And then anybody who did anything other than affirm immediately for someone presenting with distress that they claimed was gender related was to do affirm. And that just seemed like really sloppy, unethical, and shallow care to me. I mean, if anyone works in the field, you know that any number of different disorders can present with, similar symptoms and signs. And in order to assess what's going on, we need to do thorough, comprehensive assessments, typically over time, especially with young people whose identity we know through the last, whatever, 100 years of psychological theory and research and all of humanity is that it's a time of fluctuation and I just as I entered the space and started to see more of the harms that were coming to people, even to people who were okay with their transition, but they still were suffering significant, side effects and pain. And that was all getting dismissed. And even talking about that would land them in, you know, getting, accusations of transphobia and bigotry because they talked about some of the more complicated or difficult parts of transitioned. So, you know, I started working with people against fact, and I was working with people at therapy first, and, I was initially asked to assess the mess, and, maybe doing, looking over, applications to me to just have a clinical eye, look at the applicants, the potential plaintiffs, and to see maybe where there might be room for bolstering their support because this process is so long. You know, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is it can be five, six years long. And they I'm sure you've seen what happens to trans issues when they speak publicly. They go through hell and, I just am committed to wanting to help people who've been abandoned and who've been, it seems to me, being used possibly in an ideologically driven chess game. And these are young, vulnerable kids or vulnerable adults. You know, being a teenage girl doesn't like her body isn't really, a rare event. And if you put weird ideas metaphysically, the rest of it's just nonsense ideas into young children's heads. It can be very alluring to think that they have a way out. They have a way out in a way to be someone else. And so I was just very grateful for the invitation to come work with Simmons. And, you know, in Canada, as you know, we have two, lawsuits going on right now for Detransition. And I thought I could join Themis and get a sense of what's going on. And hopefully one day in Canada, as we become a bit more organized is, you know, we're we're pretty, last man standing. I'm holding on to this ideology and everyone keeping their head in the sand. So I'm I'm very, I feel blessed and grateful for Lynn's invitation to be a part of, Themis. And I'm hoping I might be able to help in some way with our Canadian silos. Cardinal Michels, Zach king. Yeah, I've said her name properly. So I imagine, Michelle, you've got a toolkit from being a clinician, a former clinician of, you know, how to manage and process, the heaviness of the work that you're doing. But I'm curious, Lynn, as, as a mom and as somebody who's gone through it personally, how do you process all the heaviness? How do you how do you work through that? Ooh, that could be a whole nother podcast. So yeah, I was like most parents. Absolutely obsessed with this topic for, quite a few years. You know, when something happens to a child, the first thing a mom does is research, right? We go right down into that hole, and we research. And this is a very heavy topic. And you can go down that rabbit hole and you can get stuck there and never get out. And I had to reevaluate my life. And I realized that I will always care about this topic, but it cannot be my whole life. And I went camping and I went to Mexico to pet baby whales, and I started having a life of my own. And that could be a I could talk for a long time about that. And I have another podcast. But I do want to really thank Michelle for coming on board. She's been an absolute gift to us at Themis, and I want to highlight one thing that she was talking about, which is our application process, which could get glossed over here. So at Themis, we have a two part application. When someone comes to us asking for funding, we want to hear from the attorney about their plan and their qualifications. And how prepared they are to undertake this. And we also, and I think this is the most important part of the application. We have a whole side of the application that is to be completed by the Detransition herd themselves, and we want to get an understanding of their support system and where they are in their journey, and kind of a sense of how prepared they are to go into this, because it is it's a war. It's absolute out and out war. And they will be at the attorneys for the defense will make you cry at the deposition, and they will basically torture you and blame you for everything that happened. This is actually your fault. And didn't you sign the consent form? You should have known better. And, they'd they'll do anything. So it's it can be very unraveling. It can be very difficult. And the last thing we want to do is to retraumatize traumatized people. Right? I, I did not start this project, nor did you do that. And so we have told people who came to us for a referral for an attorney or wanted to file that we really have compassion for where you are in your life right now. And we have great sympathy and we really care about you, and we don't think this is the right thing for you right now. It might be later, but at the present time, it's probably best if you work on your healing a little bit and take care of yourself. Because it's going to go on a long time, you're more likely to lose and you are to win and your life is going to get very, very difficult. And we don't even know for how long. It just depends on how long it gets straightened out. So we don't want to cause people harm. But we do want them to have an opportunity to get justice if they're ready for it. So that's something we're really, strong about at Themis. Okay. And back to my question, which didn't quite get answered about the, you know, why are lawyers today more willing? Are these a few of the handful to take on this case where they are going to get, you know, all the accusations up here? Yeah. You're right, you're right. I lost you lost me there. So I think that we have been a little bit behind as far as keeping up with where the trans activists, the trans activists, they had a lot of time. They knew they were going to do all these things. They've had a little time to plan and organize and get all these things going, and us normies that weren't like at the, what was the what was that, the, yoga car? We weren't at the yoga car to event. Right. We in 2006, we didn't see this coming. We're just normal people, and it's taken us a lot of time to figure out how to respond and how to get things going. And so at this point now, there's so much more evidence. We have evidential, systematic reviews. We have strong, calm, rational arguments for why we think that these procedures, systematic, these medical interventions that are being done to people, we have logical and scientific and evidence based arguments for why we do not believe that this is good science. But it's taken a while to get there. It's taken a while to educate the public. It's taken a while to get enough backing and sort of societal understanding of these issues to get to a place where we can even get to court, because this was a each conversation five years ago. You all know this, like nobody was talking about this in 2018 or even 2020. Barely. And it was happening especially during Covid. But I think, I think we've reached a tipping point where we have a good chance of succeeding. Okay. And you said 2020. I think that was the year if and I'm not taking that. Kira Bell also brought her case in the UK. Yes. Which unfortunately, initially she won. And then on appeal, it was overturned. So, you know, I, you know, I there's always this I like that you say the tipping point. So sometimes it's that one moment or that movement. And I think the Kira Bell moment seemed to be like people saying, yes, finally people will get justice. But then that. Yeah, that setback. So how optimistic are you? You talked about the immense costs, the prohibitive costs basically. And you know, Malin, I've had guests on before and we've talked about the cowardice of so many people in various professions that have allowed this to happen that don't stand up against it. And, you know, basically, yeah, I have no other word than cowardice. I can be, you know, more generous, but I won't. Okay. So, so right now, in 2025, are you more hopeful? Less hopeful than the last couple of years, I guess, again, you say all the evidence is coming out, but as we know, activists, I, you know, the ideologues, they don't care about evidence, they care about their agenda. So, you know, where do you stand right now for both of you? I think the writing's on the wall. I think the house of cards is falling and they see it falling and they're desperate. So they're getting louder and they're getting more desperate, and it's getting more extreme. And but I, I do think, I do think the house of cards is falling. I think we're going to get to a place I, I've had total strangers just like they didn't even know I was involved in this issue, make comments like, why do people do that to children? You know, I mean, it's it's something that people know about now, which was not true five years ago. The average person was like, oh, that can't be happening. There was mostly disbelief. And now people are starting to accept and understand that, yes, this this really is happening to people. Okay. Michelle, your your thoughts on that? Yeah. I, I think things are, are improving and I think the truth is coming out for reasons like it's our arguments are based in science and evidence and reality. In Canada things I think have shifted quite dramatically. And I don't know what it would have been like if X had not been a place for people to talk, because in Canada, there was an absolute media blackout for years when I wasn't involved, literally nobody was publishing anything in any reasonable way, truthful, factual way about gender. And now I think the National Post is probably the only sort of mainstream media outlet in Canada that will do that. Rebel news does a lot of great, journalism on that, as does Juno News. You know, Melanie Bennett I saw was just on a show, and I think people I see gains that have been made in the UK, gains that have been made in the States and gains that are going on with Sligo. Grover's, fight down in, Australia and it's becoming more public. And the people who do know, I think, in Canada are more willing to speak and most people are onside. If you ask your average person if they think it's a good idea to do irreversible surgeries on young developing humans, and the answer is going to be no, I think a lot of it is they don't know that it's going on. They don't understand the implications of. So G123 and I think it's so horror horrific. They just they don't understand. But once they do I think that there will be more pushback. And like Len said I think it's going to possibly get worse from the other side because they're desperate. But the evidence, it's clear that the certainty of harm is pretty high. The evidence for benefit is is low. So that's I think that the, you know, Ken Zucker was fired, and then he was, he won his lawsuit. he was vindicated. And, I think people are getting braver. I think people are getting bigger. What do you what do you both think about how things are going and the shifts? Because I do think people are talking about it more. Even in Canada. So my thoughts are, yes, people are speaking about it more. I think even clinicians, there is a small group of us who are taking a step back and thinking like, wait a minute, why are we expected to ignore our clinical instincts when it comes to this one topic, the same way that we would handle any clinical matter? We're told to not do it in this situation, I think a lot of people are really taking a step back with that, so I'm happy to see that shift. I know Orange Stance is a little bit stronger than mine. I do still tiptoe around it a little bit because, like I said earlier in a question I posed to you as there is a lot of risk involved as professionals speaking about this. So I'm careful with what I say, but I guess what I will state clearly is I'm happy to see that more clinicians are being clinicians and approaching this appropriately, than they were in the past. Yeah. And I vacillate between hopefulness and not, because, you know, it seems like it's a wave. And, yeah, I've been very consistent. And then I think to your point, I think you said about the line about X, or is it Michelle, one of you said about X, and yeah, I mean, I was banned from the original Twitter for four years for using his her to refer to some of his charges when I didn't even know their gender identity or, you know, how they identified. So I said, sure. So, you know, I got banned for four years. So thank goodness Ellen got x, or bought it. And it allows for people to with dissenting voices, with evidence based voices to present that evidence. And you know, to show, I think more perhaps more than anything. And unfortunately I know it hasn't had the impact yet. Okay. But it's not just the evidence about, you know, that is not the best, treatment, but it's the revelations of the people behind the scenes, whether it's past or, other programs and, and associations in hospitals where there are recordings of what they themselves have been saying about all of this, about the known arms, that they knew these risks, they knew people were suffering. Right. I think that was revelatory for many people. And they said, oh my goodness, the systems that were in place that were supposed to protect, to guide, to help, That they were corrupt and, you know, and I think that really opened a lot of people's eyes. So that's where my hope is that enough people see the evidence. And again, all that evidence, and they realize we can't be asleep at the wheel. I mean, that's why I titled this awake at the wheel, because we want people to stand up, speak out, and if they're in a position to do something about it, So the way that we like to end this podcast is with, you know, what can people do with all the information that we're sharing with them today? So, you know, there's so much to absorb and so much to consider, but, I'd like to hear from each of you what you feel people can do as maybe a first step or what they can do if they find themselves in a situation where they do need to perhaps access legal services or, you know, whatever the case may be. So give us your thoughts. Well, I would certainly encourage anyone who's interested in this topic. Whether you're a detransition or, and you're looking to see if maybe like litigation is something you're interested in, whether you're just interested in the, landscape of what's going on in litigation right now. On our website, we have, we have a list of attorneys. It should be longer that it's. Yeah, we're growing it. We have a list of attorneys that are interested in representing Detransition nurse. We have an entire section, with many, not all. Many of the lawsuits in the U.S are listed on there. And the complaints are the actual legal complaints are of are attached. So you can read the legal complaint for yourself. They're very eye opening. And then there's a, there's a way that people who are experts or think that they could be experts, and have some ability can email us and let us know that they be interested in finding out about being an expert witness if they have that ability. And then there's the donate tab, and we obviously, are soliciting donations. We need we do need a lot of money. So if anybody's interested in helping us with this, you can either be a one time or a monthly, donor. And those funds, as I mentioned, all go to the legal costs. None of these attorneys are charging the, detransition nurse upfront. This is contingency. So the, do you transition hours are not experiencing, difficulties with legal funds, but they won't be able to sue unless the funds are available to pay for these costs, because no one can do this. So we are, as far as I'm aware, the only organization that is doing this work. We are the only organization that is that are funding detransition lawsuits. So, if you're interested in helping, we would be thrilled. So and we'll put the contact information in the description. It's it's easy to remember it's Themis resource fund.org. Okay. Right. And so I'd say you know echo what Lynn says obviously. And then, you know, to your point about, clinicians, you know, clinicians are interested in taking a step back and want to know more about practicing with people experiencing distress, some of which may be gender related, or they think it's gender related distress. So there might be obviously other comorbidities going on. You know, therapy first is a really great organization. You can find like minded peers who are interested in providing distressed individuals with comprehensive ethical care, and they have webinars and consultations, that are really fabulous and worth, worth, going to check out as well. If you're a clinician and you want to help and want to provide services, therapy first has a directory, as does Beyond trans and beyond trans asks folks to work at a reduced rate to provide services to detransition ers, who've really in abandoned and harmed by the clinical community. And so it's a nice way for us, to give back, and in Canada, we have, of course, the Trans Alliance Canada. And I'm not sure if, the two law suit folks in Canada, Cardinal in Alberta and Michelle Sakina in Ontario, if they have their own, donate buttons for their own particular, suits. But, you know, I'm hopeful that the work and the organization that's going on at Themis will have benefits for the transition ers in the states. And I think like many things that happened in the States, it sort of rolls up here to some degree. So that's what I would advise people and parents, there's lots of our organizations to help parents who are maybe getting whose children are involved in this. And I would also encourage parents to take a look at what your kids are being taught, because if you go look at Sogi one, two, three and you do a little bit of a deep dive versus what they say and what they're actually doing, you need to be on top of that. And just to that point, just in case anyone's wondering. Yeah. So Soji, so if for people who aren't aware, it's, you know, it's the educate the teaching of sexual orientation and gender identity and as Michelle said, really look into what the classrooms are, you know, are presenting to the kids, not to what they're claiming because there's usually a huge discrepancy, because we have many activist teachers in the education systems, throughout Canada, in the States and elsewhere. So, yeah, really do your due diligence, especially when it comes to that. Yeah, there's a site it's called SOG 123, and they have claims on their front page. And then just go take a look at the educator resource tools and see how those align. Because they don't. Right okay. And for others, just one thing because you mentioned also about Bill C-4, which what used to be C six, which was C 16. Right. So just anyone who's wondering we've talked about this on our podcast before, but it really does limit what therapists can do in clinical practice. They can be literally arrested if they are seen to be, providing, conversion therapy. And even though there are provisions in the law that are supposed to allow a therapist to explore without trying to lead the person in any direction, the fact is, it would be very easy for a patient who's dissatisfied because they weren't affirmed right away to claim that their therapist, you know, was trying to manipulate them and force them into to be, non trans. So people should look it up. Yes. I'll just add to that. I'm aware of the time, but I like quickly that that that piece was added that it's, you know, you discuss these things in the promotion of gender identity formation that was not that was like an, it's not necessary. So some of the colleges and associations have dropped that so far seen in a certain college. That doesn't need to be included. It's not necessary. This is my I'm not a legal expert, but I spoke with Michael Foran. I'm sure you're aware of, over in the UK and he's he was one who noted that to me. Was that so? So so you're saying sorry. So the law they're saying so that the person that the therapist doesn't even have that protection. You're saying not if not if your college decides to drop that little bit. So your college might say, well that's fine. But we don't have that because it's not mandated in the law. It's like you can do it in the service of identity formation, but it's not necessitated. And so when colleges and associations make their own guidelines, they can drop that piece. And so the permission, the like allowing, those sorts of conversations in the service of identity formation can be dropped. So then it is strictly affirming. Wow. And I just want to I've said it before, but I'm just glad pointed out that. Oh, I said, about as long as you're not being seen to be leading folks in one direction or the other, that's actually a I'm wrong about that, because you're allowed to totally lead them toward being trans. That's perfectly okay. That's fine. That's that's literal conversion therapy. That is okay. Trans. Right. Okay. Can I just add, for any parent caught in the web of all of this. Right. I always encourage parents to seek out family therapy because I don't trust therapists, and most of us should be extremely wary of most therapists. I always encourage parents, go to family therapy, work on your communication, and then you can be in front of a neutral party. You can talk things through. It's your best chance. Okay. All right. Okay. All of them just say no. Sorry. The last point. Sorry, Emily. Any therapist in that situation, the family counselor. As soon as that comes up, they might balk at that. And they might say, I'm sorry, I can't help you because it's so fraught. Unfortunately, it should not be. Yeah, yeah. So we'll try. We'll try to talk about other things. All right. That would be advisable. We all have communication we can work on and a lot of families. A lot of it boils down to that. Yeah. So yeah okay. Well thank you both for being with us. Thank you for the work that you guys do. It's very important. And I said heavy work, but, important nonetheless. And thank you for being with us today. Yes. Thank you so much for having us on. Thank you. Thank you sweetness. Okay, now, on that grateful note, until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel.