look at having taught tens of thousands of university students I have seen the result of whether it's gentle parenting or weak, I'm going to call a weak parenting. Let's call it what it is. And how do they expect when the world says no to them on a daily basis, how that's going to go? when a child has an understanding of why their behavior is, you know, not acceptable or results in a certain consequence, it's going to extinguish it. They're terrified because they've never been in that role with their kids. Hello and welcome to awake at the wheel. So in today's episode, we're going to talk about one of my favorite topics, which is parenting. So there is a new parenting trend that is out there. And it is apparently in response to the previous trend of gentle parenting. So this new trend is called F.A.F.O. parenting, which stands for Eff Around and. Find out parenting. So this operates under the premise of, essentially natural consequences. The idea is you don't like what's for dinner, then don't eat dinner. You don't feel like wearing your raincoat even though it's raining. Then get wet and see how comfortable that feels. However, despite the pretty logical and, basic methodology here, there are some out there that think that this is cruel, that think that this is harmful. Think that it's negative. There's one popular parenting, influencer. She's a psychologist, doctor Becky. She has a whole episode about this and thinks that it's quite harmful and problematic. Citing things such as, you know, we're not taking into account the child's feelings. We're putting them into dangerous situations and so on and so forth. I think she used the example of, go outside and step on a rusty nail and see what happens. Well, I don't think it's, you know, to intended to be to that extreme. But nonetheless, Oren, what do you think about this? I hadn't heard about this. And so when you've brought up the topic, I was worried about which new trend we're going to hear about now with destructive trend. But I like it. And, you know, and I've told so many parents this, when they're dealing with teenagers or young adults, when I'm telling them, you know, like I see very similar things. And I say, you know, I see if they're young enough. I say, let them learn the lessons when they're younger, where the consequences are less impactful and less dire. I say, you know, sadly, sometimes the parents never did. Okay, so now you got someone in their 20s who's never really had to either fail or, you know, find out after and around and so on. And so they're ill equipped to deal, you know, to deal with that at work or school or whatever. So, I think this is really important. I think it's good. And, yeah, it's I've been seeing this. I mean, I've raised my children the same way, basically. And I'll just give a quick example. So my wife would make lunches for the girls, and this happened with all three of them, one stage or the other, where they either wouldn't take the lunch or, you know, basically wouldn't take it sometimes. And my wife would get frustrated and spend all this time making those breakfast and lunch. Yeah, they would either not take one or the other. Okay. And so she said, well, what are they going to do? I said, well, they're going to buy their lunch. And she said, but you know, and she said, they can't keep doing that. I go exactly, they're going to run. And I told them this as well, but it's not. I just let them do it. I explained to them, I said, go ahead, buy your lunch. And when you run out of money, when you have no money left, never think of that. Then you know you're going to learn your lesson. Or it would be nice if you learned your lesson before running out of all your money and spending it on this food. That's not really good for you, but the food is not good for you and so on. That doesn't resonate with them, but having no money that does. So, you know, I don't like this all the time. And they all learned they all have or how they found out and but they were smart enough before they, they're you know, bank accounts were depleted completely. They just realized what their watching. I said to them, just look at the numbers drop. And then they saw that, you know, like $4 or $10 or whatever. It adds up when you're a kid. So anyway, that, you know, I've been doing that my entire life with my kids, right? Prepared for life. And, and likewise. But I think, you know, and as we go on in this episode, I'm going to talk about and we'll talk about, you know, how to execute this properly, because I think that there can be problematic ways, of course, to do it. I mentioned that, psychologist earlier that spoke at length about this. And, one of her stances is that perhaps this new methodology of parenting, I don't think it's new. I think perhaps this is how we were raised, this is how we raised our kids. But nonetheless, she said that, she thinks that people are burnt out and exhausted. And this is more of a like, I just can't deal with parenting anymore. So I'm going to let them f around and find out. I don't know if that's fair. I don't know if that's necessarily true, because I think that the the opposite, which was, gentle parenting. I don't know if that burned people out, but I think perhaps people are recognizing it just didn't work. It wasn't what was best for their kids, because now they're kids who were gentle parent are becoming teenagers and they're giant assholes. Exactly. And yeah, I mean, a parent who completely just lets them f around and find out without any guidance, without any attempt to intervene. That's neglectful parenting. I don't think that was the whole point of that. If it, you know, is trying to say, like, if it's if I'm worried that, by the way, there are going to be parents because in any, context, you're going to have some, you know, let's say, idiots. So I am sure some parents, for example, if a kid says, I want to go, you know, I'm going to go out and get drunk, kids 16 or whatever, I'm gonna go party. I go, well, yeah, you'll find out. Yeah, that's irresponsible and neglectful. Yeah. Exactly. So I can always think of examples that would, you know, would negate this premise or this, approach. But let's not look at the extreme bad cases. Let's look at the reasoning behind it. And again, as long as a parent isn't just letting the kid go out in the wild, to fend for themselves, but rather is trying to intervene and everything doing their best to say, here's the most adaptive way of doing it. You don't want to listen. I've told you whatever. Well, you know, again, if you're going to try your way, fine. In most case, again, if it's something about like drinking or taking the car where they don't have a license to have like that, it's like. And so again, I as always, good intentions executed poorly lead to terrible outcomes. I think if this is done right, it can have a, you know, a maybe a reset on where society has been headed for the last number of years. Yeah, I hope so. And I guess let's talk about how maybe in the earlier years, those with younger kids can properly execute this. And in the past when we've spoken about parenting, we've discussed the importance of ensuring that discipline is coupled with love and compassion and a strong relationship and a strong foundation with your child. Because, in the absence of that, this can feel neglectful and this would likely be perceived by the child as well. My parents don't care. So I think from an early age, it's really important if this is the method that you're going to implement, ensuring that you have a strong relationship with your child and they understand that, your recommendation to f around and find out comes from love and a desire for them to learn consequences for their actions. Exactly. And if done right, it leads to a sense of accountability. Something that's been missing for, last couple of generations. Something you and I have talked about and something I write about in my book that should be coming up pretty soon, and it's called I Left Up. I'm sorry. Right. And that's what we're trying to teach the kids, okay. That if you have to up. Okay, you know, b b sorry in the sense of, you know, expressing it to somebody else, but also you'll be sorry that type of thinking, you know, that I'm sorry as well. So much you recognize. Well, I'm sorry I did that. I've learned my lesson. What or what can I learn from this? And how can I, you know, do better, right? That's what accountability is. It's failing, quote unquote. And realizing that failing is not a failure if it's a learning experience. And with gentle parenting and all this other type of coddling and so on, we're not teaching children that and therefore we're not teaching them resilience. We're not teaching them how to, you know, how to advocate for themselves and so on. And this, again, if done with compassion and empathy, can be a really good way to help kids become, you know, better citizens of the world. And I hope it sticks because, like you said, like the current generation, who did follow gentle parenting and so on, like we're we're seeing unfortunately, the outcomes with, those individuals now entering the workforce and, frankly, being a little bit soft and not able to handle stress, not being resilient, not having accountability, and certainly not all, there's some, you know, amazing people in that generation, too. But there has certainly been an influx of that. And I'm reminded as we're talking with us, when my son was in grade two, his teacher mentioned we were at the parent teacher interview, that he didn't do his homework or his assignment or something. So she wanted to discuss, giving him the opportunity to redo it. And I said, well, no, he didn't do it. Doesn’t he get a zero? Well, we don't like to fail students, you know, he should be given the opportunity and like but he had the opportunity. And just the look of horror on this teacher’s face. And I was surprised because she was an older teacher. She had been around for some time, so I was surprised. But it was just this like absolute like paradigm difference, like polar opposites, where I just felt like an alien saying that. So I'm hoping that, yeah, perhaps this does stick in. Perhaps there is more adoption of it with the recognition that this is how people learn. And I guess to balancing it with the fact that it is about learning and not necessarily about being punitive and punishing your kid. And recognizing that kids are kids and they're going to mess up and, that's okay to. Yeah. And look at having taught tens of thousands of university students I have seen the result of whether it's gentle parenting or weak, I'm going to call a weak parenting. Let's call it what it is. Yeah. Okay. Now I understand gentle parenting doesn't have to be weak, but I've seen a lot of weak parenting. You and I've talked about countless times the abdication of responsibility by parents and just the level of entitlement. And this is nothing new. I know people have been talking about it, and every employer you talk to, virtually everyone, unless they're woke, virtually everyone, even woke employers will say, oh my God, these people are so entitled. And that's what we've created. Entitlement people who it's not just entitlement, but as you say, it is people who, are basically they're afraid to fail. And if you're afraid to fail, or if you do fail again, quote unquote fail if you have a setback or whatever. The feel the fear of doing that prevents people from then taking risks like, you know, prudent risk. Right? And you cannot grow. You can't develop unless you take risks, unless you step out of your comfort zone. But if you've been coddled all your life and you don't like the discomfort that comes with these kind of things, then you're never going to feel motivated to do that. And we are seeing true here. You know, we're not we've been raising the alarm bell since we started the podcast, because the people who should be awake at the wheel have been asleep at the wheel, right? But it's not hyperbole to say that the last generation to have maybe to generate, let's say you have 1 to 5 generations at least, right is so soft entitled. And, you know, I always say all that we need for society to continue is a tiny percentage of people to not be like that. And I'm hoping that's still the ones, you know, either because it's the parents or it's because the kids themselves, they still have that ambition, they still have that drive. They still have that risk taking, desire and so on, and that they want to, you know, be the best that they can be rather than just have things happen to them or take easy ways and everything like that. So I'm hoping that still we have that few percentage points of people who are in charge. But even if that few percentage exists, if the rest of the world is going more and more in the other direction, it makes it harder for them to exert a positive, adaptive influence on the rest of society. The society is being tilted toward the weak parenting which is producing the weak children, which is producing the weak citizens. And that's what I'm worried about. So I really hope this does, you know, again. Course. Correct. So I wonder if we should talk a bit about like, why or at least what we, think are the reasons why people perhaps leaned on that weaker parenting and I like to think, and I think many people blame it on, Well, Kate, let me backtrack. I think a lot of people blame it on laziness, but I'd like to think it is more out of a desire to raise emotionally intelligent kids and help them to understand that their emotions are okay. And I do think that the the general premise of gentle parenting was positive. But as we say over and over again, good intentions executed poorly. I wonder, though, if it did kind of evolve into a well, it's easier maybe to not enforce the rules and not hold them accountable. Well, I think that's a big part of it, quite frankly. Okay. And as you said, there are some good intentions, but I truly think, with the fast was two things. I think with the fast paced world, actually maybe five things, but the fast paced world, a lot of parents felt stressed, overwhelmed, whatever. So it was hard to do the hard work of, you know, of directing children and holding them accountable and so on. That's one. Then there's the guilt that if they're not around all the time, they don't want to spend, you know, the few precious, precious minutes they have with the kid fighting, haggling and so on. So they, you know, kind of just let things slide. Then there is the, the bad, the bad messaging, this thing on social media where, you know, they're learning, oh my God, if I say no to my child, I'm causing brain damage. There's literally people who are no. Like, actually, if people think that. Yeah, they actually. Yes. Now, some will say the psychological damage, others will say literal brain damage. The sort of studies that every time a child says no was having this negative impact. And it can have a, you know, on their growing brain. And how do they expect when the world says no to them on a daily basis, how that's going to go? They don't cloud the issue with facts. So yeah. So right. So I you know, I think these factors really, and again, parenting by guilt, a lot of it is guilt because I think on some level, they recognize that they aren't investing the time that, you know, parents used to invest in children, you know, not all parents, of course, but, you know, there's so much there's so little, time, face to face because everyone's, you know, face to screen. And so I think a lot of parents are recognize that. And I do think a huge part of it really is the laziness. And the fear and especially, you know, again, as much as I'm trying as I'm coming down on parents, I do recognize that when the whole society seems to be going in one direction, it's really hard if you're the only parent of the only kid who's bucking this trend, I get it, all right? And then there are some places where I've, you know, kind of acquiesced in the small ways with my girls. But in other ways, I'm saying like, no. And when every time they tell me, well, so-and-so's parent, you know, did this or that or lets them do this, I said, because they're weak parents, I tell them that. I say, that's. The reality. I see. That's the reality. And I say, I'm not a weak parent. I'm not a weak person, and I'm not going to raise weak children to become weak members of society. So, I'm very old school in that regard. But it's not just it's not authoritarian parent parenting. We've talked about this is authoritative parenting. It's explaining why things should be the way it's now. Go sharing is letting you know it's having some negotiation. But in the end, there's somebody on top. There's a hierarchy. You have to recognize that's how societies operate. And it's not a dictatorship. It's a hierarchy. Two different things. Yeah. And I think to that point we're speaking about how to execute this. I think that's a really important part of it as well, especially when kids are younger, you know, not asking if they want to be punished or not. Certainly not. But I think that it's important to explain to them why X leads to Y helping them to understand why, you know, this behavior leads to this consequence. And I firmly believe, and I'm sure that there's literature that supports this over and over again, that when a child has an understanding of why their behavior is, you know, not acceptable or results in a certain consequence, it's going to extinguish it. Like that's, you know, basic conditioning of humans is that if we do something and there's an outcome that's not desired, we're going to stop doing it. Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, it could back to yeah. It's like one on one basically. And parenting 1 to 1. So and once again, just to reiterate, it's not just simply, well, yeah. Hey, you know, there's a busy highway. The kid wants to cross the street, let him run. It's not that it's parents being involved, but if the child really is that resistant, let them see why you were trying to steer them in one direction or the other in the first place, and again, with proper parental oversight. That's the whole idea. Again, I'm just the only thing I'm concerned about with the FFO. Parenting, as we've talked about a couple of times, is if if, as we've seen many times, parents take it too far and truly think it's like, oh, okay, that's fine. So I don't have to worry about this. So, you know, fend for yourself. It's more so, helping them understand the logical consequences for their actions. And you mentioned authoritative parenting. Yeah, that's essentially what this is. And I've heard some critics of this FAFO parenting call it authoritarian. No, it's not it absolutely is not. I don't see how that would even fit in. But I think as we were discussing this and we're talking about gentle parenting and the fact that that's been around for the last decade or so, what are people what if what if somebody is interested in this, you know, change in paradigm in their parenting, but now their kids, a teenager. So let's maybe talk about that. Like how how would a parent make the shift from being a gentle parent to more of a FAFO parent? Because I could see that being quite difficult to all of a sudden change the rules, change the way that things are framed in the household. I think it would be a lot easier, if one had young kids and this was the way that it was throughout childhood. But I also think it's never too late to change. Well, it's not. So here's a few things. Some will be commonsense, others it'll be unpopular. All right. The first thing I tell people when I am helping parents who are making these changes, okay, whether whether there's adolescent or young adults. Okay, a few things. One is when the parents look at me in horror and they say, but how am I supposed to, implement it? Or how am I supposed to hold them accountable? How am I supposed to, you know, discipline, whatever. They're terrified because they've never been in that role with their kids. So, I say, I understand that it would have been better if you did earlier, but, you know, now we're going to try. So how do you assert your authority? Here's the part. This can be unpopular. And there's a reason for that. When we talk about, you know, with two parent households and matching a single parent household isn't is the worst. But, you know, with two parents having whether it's, you know, male and female, which is the standard. Okay. And that is I don't mean to be too stereotypical, but the kids should, you know, be concerned that someone's going to hold them to account. They shouldn't be terrified of their parent, and they should definitely not ever fear any kind of violence. Right? But they should feel that there is a strong authority figure, right? It's not authoritarian. It's an authority figure that's going to, you know, again, that there's gonna be discipline, there's going to be structure, and there's going to be accountability, enforced. And they have to they have to be and really know that that exists. And if you have two soft parents, right. And you can have like if you have two women, you know, a couple if one of them is that tough, you know, the hardass, or the bad cop at times, then it can still work out. But the kids, especially if they're teenagers. And again, people don't like to hear this, but it's a fact. If this a teenage boy who, you know, was 16 years old and he towers over his mother. Yeah. How is she going to assert authority if from a young age, that child learned that mom, mom is the authority right from the young age, even as he gets older, right? You know, he's going to be less inclined to try to, you know, bully her and everything else like that because you learn to respect that authority and you learn to respect her as a human being, as that authority in his life. And once again, it's authority. It's not dictator. And, you know, so, so having a parent, a strong parent, ideally a strong parent is also physically, you know, potentially intimidating. Again, I'm not talking about terrorizing kids. It's just that notion that, oh, boy, if I f around, I'm going to find out having that mentality, you know? So it's, it's hard when you don't have both parents on board. It's hard if there's not two parents in the picture or two. Right. Or it's hard if neither parent can be the strong one. So I you know, I've worked with parents where that's the case and it's obviously, you know, it's much harder than in other cases that when we try our best for what I say is, you know, a few things you have to figure out where do you have control over, you know, in the in the household or in the system. So first of all, I say you don't suddenly just change it from A to Z. You've got to slowly kind of work it in. You have to take accountability and say, you know what, I know this is on me. I let this system, you know, continue for too long. Right? And so there are going to be changes. You don't come down now. They're going to be changing. That's not going to you know, you're going to get rebellion in that case. But you explain and I always tell parents every time, and I say this directly to the kids as well, and to my own kids, I say everything. And by the way, I say the kid's not going to appreciate it. They're not going to. Maybe they'll respect it, I don't know, but most kids don't have the capacity to really understand it. But eventually they will. I say get the programing and I've done it from a young age. I say everything I'm doing is to help you to become independent one day, okay? It's not about punishment. It's not trying to control you is trying to give you the tools to be able to, you know, live your life in the way that you want to. And and by the way, and then I'll show people in our lives who haven't mastered that, and they're adults and their lives aren't going well. And I say to the kid, they say, is that what you want? You know your life to be like? I say, no, you know, with competency, with accountability, with responsibility and so on. With ambition, I say come the rewards and I say and explain that to them. And I show them certain rewards, whether it's me or other people they know. And I say, it gives you freedom. It gives you the things that you can do, but you have to be able to be independent in order to do that. So I say frame it that way. That is for their own good. Like I said, they're not going to it's not going to resonate with most people, but at least it's a consistent narrative. And also for the parent, if they're feeling guilty going, oh, why am I doing this? They can always fall back on. I'm doing it because I'm doing my job as a parent. This is the end, the best for my kid. And if my kid doesn't understand, I better understand at least. Yeah, because at the end of the day, our chief responsibility, I think, as parents, is to ensure that we prepare them for the real world. And like, I don't know if that sounds too hard or tough and I think we need to do so in age appropriate ways and developmentally appropriate ways. But at each stage of our a child and adolescence lives, it's our job. It's our responsibility. It's imperative that we prepare them for what's out there. Because if we don't, who's going to? They're going to be, you know, pretty shocked when they get out there. And yeah. Do you you reminded me, I just the other day had this conversation with my family. It was more of a joke because for the most part, my son is quite respectful even as a teenager. But I, I laugh because I'm like, oh gosh, I don't know how I'm going to discipline him now because he's towering over me. He's nearing six feet tall. I'm barely five feet tall. I'm like, well, this is this will be interesting. But I also think that we've set the stage of I'm still the authority, I'm still the parent. And that's, you know, known and understood. So yeah, that that is a reality of there comes a point and it definitely crept up on me that all of a sudden, physically speaking, I'm like the tiniest person in the house. But nonetheless, I think as well, ensuring that both parents are on the same page is important and not always realistic, but this is something I talk to with families and couples that I work with all the time that you can disagree, and that's fine, but don't do it in front of your kids if you disagree with the way in which your partner maybe handle the situation or, you know, whatever the case may be, I think that it's incredibly important to still present a united front to the children, because they need to know that they can't go to mom for certain problems, dad for certain problems. Parent one, parent two for certain problems. So discuss it amongst yourselves, but maintain a united front wherever possible. And obviously there's, you know, exceptions to that if there's danger of, of harm and things such as that, and if it's emotionally abusive, I don't mean about extreme cases, but, in the day to day disciplinary matters that arise, maintaining that united front is important. 100%. You need that consistency between the parents because kids, they learn from the youngest of age, divide and conquer. Every young kid learns that. And you know, as they get older, they get better at that. So that definitely. And this whole idea again, what I'm saying about this intimidation or worrying about that parent, if people think that's being too, you know, aggressive or toxically male or something like some ridiculous term like that, I just think about and I don't want to go stereotypical here, but, you know, there are a number of families, many families where, you know, the kids are terrified of pissing off that old grandma, okay? Not because she's going to beat them with a cane, but rather because from a young age she was held in such regard. And they don't want to upset her. They don't want to look bad in her eyes. And you know, it's not about shaming. It's about self-respect and wanting to be, you know, again, be seen a certain way by people that you respect. And so that's why, again, from a young age, you try to get the kids to understand there's a hierarchy if everyone's equal, if the parents have no authority, if parents are just another person in the family, why would the kids respect them? Why would the kids want, you know, want want to have their, earn their esteem? So that's number one. Number two, it's this was I mean, I saw I know I saw in Westworld, but I seen another place as well where, they had these giant elephants and they're tight. You're talking, like, with your son, you know, towering over you. But there's this scene where there's these giant elephants that are tied to this tiny little stakes, and the person is like, can't they just lift up their leg? Like they can easily do that? And they go, well, when they were babies, they were tied to the stake. Okay? So they learn from a young age that's take they can't build those and they never even try. So with kids again, if your kids are already older, it's too late. But if you're a young parent or if your kids are young, you know, from the youngest of age. And again, it's not that they're terrified of you, it's just that they have this internalized sense of if mom or dad says this, you know, and they explain it, whatever else like that. A it goes what they say goes because that's how the system works. And B, again, you earn the kids respect, you don't terrorize them. What you want the kid to do right by you. And once you become teenagers, most kids, they want to rebel. They don't really care about doing right by you, I get that, but you hope that there's something there's a little bit in there, or at least one parent where they they don't want to earn the parent's ire or, you know, or upset them or disappoint them or something like that. So little by little you try that. And earlier I was saying about, you know, when when the kid is physically imposing. Okay, I say, but still, as a parent, you do hold certain advantages over the child, whether it's money, whether it's, you know, taking them places, you know, whether it's whatever it is. And the thing is, again, going back to, to enforcing these expectations, right. If the parent says you're not going out tonight and the giant teen goes, well, yes, I am right. What does appear to it's really difficult if you don't have that person in the family, where, again, the kids are worried that, okay, I don't upset this person, whatever the consequence might be. And if you don't have if it's not the if it's not the parents themselves, you try to make sure there's somebody somewhere, either in the family or in the sphere where the child really does not want, you know, to be exposed to that person for being a little shit. Okay. So yeah, right. It's not it's not easy, but it's definitely doable. And that's what parents used to do in the old days. So yeah. And I think you make such a great point and you may have already said this, but I think it if you did, it bears repeating that it's not about, you know, creating shame or fear in the kid. It's about self agency and having the ability to regulate one's own behavior and emotions and responses. With an understanding of like, I respect this person, I respect this parent, I don't want to disappoint them. And again, it's not a guilt or shame thing. It's like I want to behave in a manner that will make this person proud. And to be honest, that was how I was raised. I look back to when I was a teenager, and I think I was a pretty good teenager, and when I look back on it, I'm like, I didn't want like the look of disappointment on my mom's face was probably the biggest deterrent for me because I had so much respect for her and her authority and what she did. So it's certainly doable. Exactly. And again, this thing about wanting to earn their respect, if it's done properly, the kids are learning their own self respect, right? If right. Because the parent, the kid who doesn't respect the parent but only fears them, they're not learning self respect. They're learning to do things, you know, like to not get in trouble. And you know, and I have to say, I mean, I was raised in a very different way than you are. Okay? And if anyone who knows me knows I respected nobody. Okay. I still. Have such a hard time believing that. Oh, check my school records. All right. There's a reason I went to three different high schools. Right? So, Yeah. So. And it wasn't disappointment in my mother's eyes that I was worried about. It was vengeance. It was like, oh, geez, I have it around. I know I'm about to find out. And my mother made sure I found out I really did. So again, it wasn't for again. I'm just saying I'm coming from the position of I was that kid that terrible can by the way, tell many parents what they tell me about their own kids. They're teenagers and what they're doing. I say they're like, well, I say, I said, count your blessings. I said, if my mother had a kid like yours, she would have been so happy, like I was that worst or one of the worst kids in school. I know it. I earned that reputation and everything like that. So I'm not coming from a goody two shoes place, right? Anyway, so, like me. Well, two very different upbringings, very different personalities. Yet we have the same, ideas about work. And values, and it's it's so fascinating. Yeah. So. Yeah. But yeah, as far as what parents can do, I think, you know, we've set the stage in terms of what can be done at different stages of life. And I think just being kind to ourselves as parents is really important as well. And recognizing, you know, there is no such thing as a perfect parent. There's no perfect method. And really, the method that you follow may and probably will vary and change and evolve as your kids get older. The thing that I like about this frown and find out though, in the way that we've framed it, is, I think if it's executed properly in childhood, the adolescent will have what we're describing in terms of the self-respect the agency, the ability to recognize right from wrong and consequences and so on. So I think that it in, in many ways can probably make the adolescent years a bit, a little bit easier than they typically are. Well, exactly. And on that optimistic, compassionate and reasonable note, until next time, keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel.